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10-25-2012, 08:04 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
What are you talking about? The NHLPA has adopted the "we won't lose any money this year" slogan even tho we just saw 17 teams lose money last year.
Source on the 17 teams? Forbes isn't reliable. Bill Daly himself has said they pull their numbers out of thin air. Pierre McGuire recently came out and said about 13 teams were actually losing money while 17 were profitable to some extent.

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The NHLPA may not be intentionally favoring the richer players but don't kid yourself that that isn't exactly what their offers do. In order to play under the cap the players want we will see the majority of teams have to lose money for many years which is not feasible for several franchises and we will see several teams disappear costs nhlpa jobs. But the NHLPA is more concerned with keeping the cap as high as they can so players like Iginla, Perry, Getzlaf, etc can cash in as much as they can. They aren't worried about the 4th line grinders anymore than the NHL is.
This is so far off base that it's a little funny. Seriously, check out the salaries of the upper tier players prior to 2004 - guys like Kariya and Lidstrom were making $10M a season. Post lockout, the average cap hit of the best of the best are ~8M (Staal, Nash, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos etc).

The lockout actually decreased the salaries of the upper tier guys and increased the salaries of the mid tier players. Because of the salary cup, big names taking too much space meant a team unable to fill out the roster with quality players. So guys like Crosby and Iginla take discounts on the yearly cap hit so the owners can sign guys like Paul Martin to a $5M/year contract or Hudler to a $4.0M per year deal.

The bottom tier, the fourth liners and goods and what not, are paid pretty much the same, league minimum.

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You keep saying its not the players job to stop the nhl from going bankrupt, guess what happens if the nhl goes bankrupt all players those there jobs so at the end of the day it is their job to make sure the league doesn't go bankrupt and under the current system that say 17 teams lose money in 2011 and most likely more in 2012 that isn't happening.
The league just saw RECORD REVENUES of $3.3B LAST SEASON. So suggesting bankruptcy is a possibility in any way is a stretch. The League on the WHOLE, was PROFITABLE last season.

Sure, costs have risen which is why the player's percentage split should be lowered. But when the Leagues own proposals do nothing to address the central issue they're whining about and locking out the players for, it makes very little sense to support their position.

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10-25-2012, 08:07 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Body Checker View Post
I am more for the owners than the players.

Players should of negotiated like heck around the NHL's offer.

I think there would of been a deal if the players responded somewhere around the following:

-We don't like 5 year contract lengths, how about 7 years?

-New UFA rules. Nah let's keep it where it's at.

-One year transition where teams can spend to 70 million? Let's add one more year to that.

-50-50, sure but agree to the above first.
That's a nice idea. A pity the league refused out right to negotiate on all but one issue in their last proposal. Putting out 'take it or leave it' proposals is in no way conducive to getting a deal done.

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10-25-2012, 08:08 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Forget everything up until now? I'm suppose to base my opinions around the premise of having amnesia? C'mon.

And where you getting these numbers from? Forbes? We all know that books aren't open, and while Gretzky says 10/10/10, and while Pierre McGuire says 13 losing money, you tend to believe some serious doom and gloom about this league.

Meanwhile Penguins fans can't believe that a team that sells out, sells expensive tickets, and goes into the playoffs while rostering the two most marketable players in the world is somehow losing money.

Meanwhile, the league has been operating for the past 100 years, during the 1980's recession, the 2K bubble, the great depression, etc.

What's also interesting is that a current owner is barking a message similiar to Bettman to Edmontonians about the dire financial dire situation, but Forbes disagrees. And Edmonton is supposively the only team in the league that has a 3rd party owned arena.

So where teams are desperate, Balsille is willing to open his cheque book any day now to bring a team to Canada. Also, while Markham and Seattle look like they can help the league, for some reason Bettman is SOOOO adamant about paying 25 million to keep a team in Pheonix.

And how did we get in the current situation? Oh wait, the league had a RECORD year in revenue GROWTH during one of the worst economic meltdowns in the history of the human race!!

So what exactly must I forget to build my opinion?
I was merely saying looking at this CBA negotiations the NHLPA has been useless in negotiating.

The NHL has no options right now for moving Phoenix as there isn't a suitable stadium. I also think they need to move but thats not the point. You are looking at the worst team even tho the majority are losing money.

The owners have their fair share for greed but you seem incapable of saying the players are also greedy and during these negotiations they have been more greedy.

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10-25-2012, 08:18 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
Source on the 17 teams? Forbes isn't reliable. Bill Daly himself has said they pull their numbers out of thin air. Pierre McGuire recently came out and said about 13 teams were actually losing money while 17 were profitable to some extent.


This is so far off base that it's a little funny. Seriously, check out the salaries of the upper tier players prior to 2004 - guys like Kariya and Lidstrom were making $10M a season. Post lockout, the average cap hit of the best of the best are ~8M (Staal, Nash, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos etc).

The lockout actually decreased the salaries of the upper tier guys and increased the salaries of the mid tier players. Because of the salary cup, big names taking too much space meant a team unable to fill out the roster with quality players. So guys like Crosby and Iginla take discounts on the yearly cap hit so the owners can sign guys like Paul Martin to a $5M/year contract or Hudler to a $4.0M per year deal.

The bottom tier, the fourth liners and goods and what not, are paid pretty much the same, league minimum.


The league just saw RECORD REVENUES of $3.3B LAST SEASON. So suggesting bankruptcy is a possibility in any way is a stretch. The League on the WHOLE, was PROFITABLE last season.

Sure, costs have risen which is why the player's percentage split should be lowered. But when the Leagues own proposals do nothing to address the central issue they're whining about and locking out the players for, it makes very little sense to support their position.
Until I see better numbers I have been using Forbes yes.

Also you just said the players took a paycut when the cap came in and I am saying they want the cap to stay as high as it can so they can make most money which is what your saying. I ment team bankruptcy like Columbus, Florida, Pheonix. If those teams fold the NHLPA loses jobs and we won't see the first line players from those teams lost in is the 4th liners that will be lost that is why I am saying they aren't working as hard for the 4th liner then the upper players.

So you are saying it is closer to only 13 teams losing money well if only half the league is losing money then I am sure that 3.3 billion is evenly spread.


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10-25-2012, 08:19 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I was merely saying looking at this CBA negotiations the NHLPA has been useless in negotiating.

The NHL has no options right now for moving Phoenix as there isn't a suitable stadium. I also think they need to move but thats not the point. You are looking at the worst team even tho the majority are losing money.

The owners have their fair share for greed but you seem incapable of saying the players are also greedy and during these negotiations they have been more greedy.
You're right, they have been useless in negotiations. If it was me (a greedy *******), I would've put out an offer that removed the cap, took 74% of HRR, and eliminated the entry level. Plus I would've offered a proposal to increase the league minimum.

Incompetent NHLPA -- taking an altruistic approach! How dare they! That's not how a billionaire negotiates!

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10-25-2012, 08:24 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
You're right, they have been useless in negotiations. If it was me (a greedy *******), I would've put out an offer that removed the cap, took 74% of HRR, and eliminated the entry level. Plus I would've offered a proposal to increase the league minimum.

Incompetent NHLPA -- taking an altruistic approach! How dare they! That's not how a billionaire negotiates!
Baseball is a terrible sport because of that and many of the owners lose money and we all know that players cave before owners because they already have money they don't need to throw it away. If the NHLPA won't agree to a deal that at least guarantees that the owners won't lose this kind of money then the owners laugh as the players look for work.

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10-25-2012, 08:32 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Baseball is a terrible sport because of that and many of the owners lose money and we all know that players cave before owners because they already have money they don't need to throw it away. If the NHLPA won't agree to a deal that at least guarantees that the owners won't lose this kind of money then the owners laugh as the players look for work.
So who's fighting the good fight? Who's getting bullied?




And baseball is not that bad as a league. It's terrible to watch mind you.

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10-25-2012, 08:41 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
So who's fighting the good fight? Who's getting bullied?




And baseball is not that bad as a league. It's terrible to watch mind you.
Baseball is a terrible league as half the league is a farm team for the other half.

Who is fighting the good fight? No one is, this isn't life or death. This is owners wanting to make money and players not caring if the owners lose money they want to earn as much as they can. There is no right or wrong there is what is going to get a deal and what isn't.

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10-25-2012, 08:45 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Baseball is a terrible league as half the league is a farm team for the other half.

Who is fighting the good fight? No one is, this isn't life or death. This is owners wanting to make money and players not caring if the owners lose money they want to earn as much as they can. There is no right or wrong there is what is going to get a deal and what isn't.
As a Flames fan, I want that. Calgary is a hockey market so it's guaranteed to be a winning team. I'm joking of course... I think.

And Basketball is no different. Right now we know either the Lakers or the Heat will win the O'brien cup, while everyone else is just gravy. Isn't Basketball a cap sport that Bettman had a hand in?

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10-25-2012, 08:49 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Until I see better numbers I have been using Forbes yes.
Pierre McGuire's figures are probably the most accurate we're going to get. He at least, has some source within in the NHL while Forbes simply guesses.

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Also you just said the players took a paycut when the cap came in and I am saying they want the cap to stay as high as it can so they can make most money which is what your saying. I ment team bankruptcy like Columbus, Florida, Pheonix. If those teams fold the NHLPA loses jobs and we won't see the first line players from those teams lost in is the 4th liners that will be lost that is why I am saying they aren't working as hard for the 4th liner then the upper players.
For one, why should the players be asked to bear the brunt of failed franchises like Phoenix given that they have no say in relocation matters? The league's lost what, $50M or so in the last couple of seasons when they could have moved the Coyotes to much more profitable location.

Two, the PA's shown a willingness to help out struggling teams like Florida and Columbus by reducing their share of HRR. The problem is, an all around cut also means teams like Toronto, Montreal, NY, and Vancouver who are already tremendously profitable, get even richer. Why on earth should the players take a cut so those teams can make an extra $5 or $10M a season when they're already making ten of millions in profit?

Lastly, you suggest the union isn't working hard enough for the 4th liners. I have no intricate knowledge of the PA's inner workings, but I really don't see a reason why they should. The stars drive the league. Their the reason why fans buy tickets, watch games, buy jerseys and other merchandise.Your average fan doesn't spend a hundred dollars to see Jackman and Kostopoulos work really hard, they pay that much to see the names like Iginla and Kiprusoff.

At this point I have to point one thing out; and that is don't make the mistake of confusing yourself or the average poster on HF with the average NHL fan.

The posters here, almost by the very nature of visiting this board and signing up, are hard core fans. Fans like that support their chosen team through thick and thin and will even buy tickets when the teams made of nothing but grinders and losing most of their games.

But the NHL is not made up of only hard core fans. Aside from the teams in Canada and few exceptions in the US, the majority of teams rely on the CASUAL fan to exist. And those casual fans DON'T buy tickets to watch Warren Peters or Darroll Powe's. They want to see winners and talented players, like Parise and Suter. Then they buy tickets.

Finally, your average fourth liner spends, what, two or three seasons in the big leagues? What incentive is there for the PA to fight super hard for guys who won't even be around for the entire length of a proposed CBA (five or six years). Meanwhile the stars, barring colossal and unpredictable injuries, will be.

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So you are saying it is closer to only 13 teams losing money well if only half the league is losing money then I am sure that 3.3 billion is even spread.
Bettman's very quick to point out how other leagues have seen the Players take ~50% of the revenues. But he's entirely content to ignore how those same leagues incorporate significant revenue sharing programs which actually help teams in need.

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10-25-2012, 09:08 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
As a Flames fan, I want that. Calgary is a hockey market so it's guaranteed to be a winning team. I'm joking of course... I think.

And Basketball is no different. Right now we know either the Lakers or the Heat will win the O'brien cup, while everyone else is just gravy. Isn't Basketball a cap sport that Bettman had a hand in?
Thats not true at all Chicago has a real strong team even with Rose hurt, The Thunder have a strong team, The Spurs and Celtics are always strong, Mavericks and Clippers are both good teams as well.

The Lakers have been extremely dominate but other than them the rest of the league has had alot of competition. Also Bettman has been in the nhl for what 17-18 years and yet it is his fault for the NBA's system?

I don't look at this a Flames fan I look at it as a hockey fan and I am hoping for what gets a deal done and players have done little to get the deal done.

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10-25-2012, 09:10 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post

Bettman's very quick to point out how other leagues have seen the Players take ~50% of the revenues. But he's entirely content to ignore how those same leagues incorporate significant revenue sharing programs which actually help teams in need.
I agree 100% that we need better revenue sharing that is the key part the nhl has left out but 50-50 must be the center piece of the new deal for it to work. I would like to see the NHLPA offer the same deal the nhl offered with no cap on contract length and have a condition for better revenue sharing.

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10-25-2012, 09:29 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I agree 100% that we need better revenue sharing that is the key part the nhl has left out but 50-50 must be the center piece of the new deal for it to work. I would like to see the NHLPA offer the same deal the nhl offered with no cap on contract length and have a condition for better revenue sharing.
Bettman's already said he's not interested in negotiating unless the PA accepts his last proposal entirely. And should they do so, then and only then can they look to 'tweak' the 'make whole' provision and nothing else.

Besides, the PA has already agreed to a 50-50 split, in time. The biggest and most important issue for the NHLPA is to ensure already signed contracts are honoured to the fullest extent possible.

People will claim that under the now expired CBA, players contracts were never truly fulfilled entirely due to the escrow system. But there's a massive difference between players receiving less than their contract because league wide revenues fell or because the league as a whole paid more than 57% to the players and the owners deciding that they just don't feel like paying the players what they previously agreed to.

If the entire league as a whole was suffering and losing money, it would be entirely expected of the PA to take an immediate cutback. But if the NHL as a whole is profitable with only a few teams struggling, why should they? There's absolutely no reason why the fall in the players share of HRR can't be staggered so existing contracts are honoured.

The issue here is much more of an ownership issue with unequal revenue sharing as opposed to a owner versus player issue. If the hardline owners led by Jacobs were so hellbent on destroying the Union, this lockout would have ended a long time ago.

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10-25-2012, 09:35 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
Bettman's already said he's not interested in negotiating unless the PA accepts his last proposal entirely. And should they do so, then and only then can they look to 'tweak' the 'make whole' provision and nothing else.

Besides, the PA has already agreed to a 50-50 split, in time. The biggest and most important issue for the NHLPA is to ensure already signed contracts are honoured to the fullest extent possible.

People will claim that under the now expired CBA, players contracts were never truly fulfilled entirely due to the escrow system. But there's a massive difference between players receiving less than their contract because league wide revenues fell or because the league as a whole paid more than 57% to the players and the owners deciding that they just don't feel like paying the players what they previously agreed to.

If the entire league as a whole was suffering and losing money, it would be entirely expected of the PA to take an immediate cutback. But if the NHL as a whole is profitable with only a few teams struggling, why should they? There's absolutely no reason why the fall in the players share of HRR can't be staggered so existing contracts are honoured.

The issue here is much more of an ownership issue with unequal revenue sharing as opposed to a owner versus player issue. If the hardline owners led by Jacobs were so hellbent on destroying the Union, this lockout would have ended a long time ago.
In time is 5 years from now until it is 50-50 at least. That isn't good enough, the nhl already said they didn't want rollback they are fine honoring the current contracts.

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10-25-2012, 09:43 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
In time is 5 years from now until it is 50-50 at least. That isn't good enough, the nhl already said they didn't want rollback they are fine honoring the current contracts.
So what stopped Bettman from negotiating that five year time frame to something more palatable for the owners?

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10-25-2012, 10:01 PM
  #191
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So what stopped Bettman from negotiating that five year time frame to something more palatable for the owners?
I don't know but the owners have come down 7% from what they originally wanted, if the players wanted better revenue sharing offering what I said (50-50 with better revenue sharing) would have been a great counter as either the owners would waive better revenue sharing and settle around 54% or they fix it and take 50-50.

The owners want 1 year to get to 50-50 the players want 5+ years to get 50-50 unless the players came up with a way to get 50-50 in say 2-3 years the owners won't care.

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10-25-2012, 10:38 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I don't know but the owners have come down 7% from what they originally wanted,
Saying you'll take less than you're original demand still isn't a concession or an indication of good faith.

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if the players wanted better revenue sharing offering what I said (50-50 with better revenue sharing) would have been a great counter as either the owners would waive better revenue sharing and settle around 54% or they fix it and take 50-50.
So rather than doing what best for the league and increase revenue sharing amongst themselves regardless, the owners would rather stick it to the players. Yep, that seems like an appropriate way to summarize their actions thus far.

Besides, an immediate 50-50 split means existing contracts take a hit and that's a non-starter from the PA's point of view. The owners have indicated a willingness to honour the contracts they signed, but only if the players pay for it themselves out of their own share.

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The owners want 1 year to get to 50-50 the players want 5+ years to get 50-50 unless the players came up with a way to get 50-50 in say 2-3 years the owners won't care.
The players suggest five years while Bettman demanded one. Again, what's stopping Bettman from a proposing a staggered fall? Is his ego too big to accept anything less than an outright win for the league and an outright loss for the PA?

Given that the players have no desire to see their percentage of HRR decrease, what incentive do they have of proposing that? Why should the onus be on them to facilitate the salvation of the league's lesser teams? Recalling the history of the last lockout, when the PA made a major concession in the form of an across the board 24% rollback of all contracts, the league pocketed the offer and said thanks for the gift, but you're still locked out and we still want a cap. The owners are going to have to make a real concession to get things started.

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10-26-2012, 11:03 AM
  #193
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Wake me up when November ends...


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One day after a deadline to save a full 82-game schedule expired, the NHL informed all 30 teams on Friday it was cancelling games through to Nov. 30, Hockey Night in Canada’s Elliotte Friedman tweeted.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...els-games.html

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10-26-2012, 04:08 PM
  #194
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Lock the "big four" in the Cecil. Tell them they can't come out till the deal is done. They would want outta there so fast that the deal would be signed in under 2 minutes.

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10-26-2012, 04:37 PM
  #195
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I really really really hope when this is all eventually resolved and the teams hit the ice, the whole arena boo's.

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10-28-2012, 08:51 AM
  #196
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I'm a fan of the sport, I hate the buisness crap - that should be left to buisness people. But what I don't get is that if the players can go and replace their job with another team overseas, why can't the owners just graduate the farm teams to play in the NHL?
You can't tell me there wouldn't be intrest in Heat tickets in Calgary. Ofcourse the ticket prices would be much lower, as would the salaries. ECHL teams would graduate to the AHL, so no jobs are lost there, and Joe Blow could relive his dream and sign with an ECHL team - you would't really see too much of a drop off in talent if you were an ECHL fan.
Look, we have millions of hockey players in Canada alone, and a new crop each year. Owners should just lock out the current crop of players, and make that be a lesson for the next crop to not get greedy, and be happy that you are paid well to play a game.
I'm getting sick of not watching my team play (especially Saturday nights), at this point i could care less who plays for "the Flames", I just want to cheer.
Anyone who watched last Saturday's Heat game against Chicago would agree that we don't need specific players, we need a team.

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10-28-2012, 12:54 PM
  #197
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I'm a fan of the sport, I hate the buisness crap - that should be left to buisness people. But what I don't get is that if the players can go and replace their job with another team overseas, why can't the owners just graduate the farm teams to play in the NHL?
You can't tell me there wouldn't be intrest in Heat tickets in Calgary. Ofcourse the ticket prices would be much lower, as would the salaries. ECHL teams would graduate to the AHL, so no jobs are lost there, and Joe Blow could relive his dream and sign with an ECHL team - you would't really see too much of a drop off in talent if you were an ECHL fan.
Look, we have millions of hockey players in Canada alone, and a new crop each year. Owners should just lock out the current crop of players, and make that be a lesson for the next crop to not get greedy, and be happy that you are paid well to play a game.
I'm getting sick of not watching my team play (especially Saturday nights), at this point i could care less who plays for "the Flames", I just want to cheer.
Anyone who watched last Saturday's Heat game against Chicago would agree that we don't need specific players, we need a team.
I'm half and half. Yes, I stopped caring that Jokinen left and I'll still cheer for the Flames because I'll cheer for them no matter what. But knowing what I know, I'm excited to see Wideman, Hudler, Cervenka and Baertschi.

Do I want to see a Flames team without Iginla, Kipper, Bouwmeester, Cammy, and Tangs? Probably not, of course unless it's a Flames team with Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos and Tavares. I know who the best players are, and every trade deadline and free agency people hope their GM is that guy to land them. Nobody wishes to see Ben Street and Kris Kolanos on their team on free agency day.

I get what you're saying, but I can't see it happening. Unless you knew **** all about hockey and wouldn't know any better between Crosby and Street.

Would I pay to watch Abby games? No way. I spend too much time and effort into the NHL as it is, I'm not about to start becoming knowledgable in AHL teams. Besides, I already cancelled my television service provider.

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11-21-2012, 04:00 PM
  #198
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Sounds like we can call it a season, next time we see the flaming C will be at the draft.

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11-21-2012, 07:06 PM
  #199
tmurfin
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Might as well call her a season.. ****, stop getting hopes up and just cancel it.. I really need to see Iggy in a flaming C again though..

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11-21-2012, 11:30 PM
  #200
Stewie Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Sounds like we can call it a season, next time we see the flaming C will be at the draft.
On the bright side, we should get three lottery balls.

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