HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2012 Lockout Discussion Thread

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-24-2012, 07:06 PM
  #951
JustGivingEr
How far we done fell
 
JustGivingEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hamsterdam
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,420
vCash: 50
Wow, it's almost as if Hainsey is a hockey player or something, not a business expert



JustGivingEr is online now  
Old
10-24-2012, 07:17 PM
  #952
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Ya...

"Can you guys hear me? Did you get MY EXPLANATION?"

"Yup, sure did Ron."
why do i feel like i've missed out on something truly marvelous...?

Grind is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 07:34 PM
  #953
YWGinYYZ
Global Moderator
Alien Hockey Wizard
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,473
vCash: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
why do i feel like i've missed out on something truly marvelous...?
It was ... awkward. Ron was talking for about a minute - when he finished his thought, there was complete and utter dead air, for about 5 or 6 seconds. Given that Lawless was on the other side, you KNOW how little THAT happens.

YWGinYYZ is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 07:49 PM
  #954
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
It was ... awkward. Ron was talking for about a minute - when he finished his thought, there was complete and utter dead air, for about 5 or 6 seconds. Given that Lawless was on the other side, you KNOW how little THAT happens.
awe.. if it was just lawless being lawless and hainsy being a little angry thats nothing to get too worked up about.

Grind is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 07:57 PM
  #955
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 4,724
vCash: 1235
Interesting Interview with Roenick. Maybe a few players should pay attention to someone with some perspective on the last lockout 8 years later.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...th-bob-costas/

KingBogo is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 08:49 PM
  #956
Guardian17
Strong & Free
 
Guardian17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,093
vCash: 500
You can listen to the Hainsey interview here,

Look for the link on the right side of the page.

http://www.tsn.ca/winnipeg/

Guardian17 is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 09:05 PM
  #957
scelaton
Registered User
 
scelaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
I caught the end of the interview with Hainsey and some of Bill Daly on the way home. No question that Hainsey struggled, but no surprise either. Hainsey, Ladd, Toews, Crosby--these are the best the PA has to offer and that is telling.
How many in the PA have gone to University? How many have managed a business? There is such a disparity between how much money these kids make and their ability to make decisions in the real world that it makes the responsibility of their Union leader enormous. He can create all the pseudo-democratic committees he wants, but they are still putty in his hands. Aside from their 'educational' vulnerabilities, they are, by their nature, competitive, team oriented and win-oriented--all attributes that are laudable in an athlete, but not so much when engaged in analytical situations.
Lastly, they are so young! Most weren't around during the last lockout and careers are so short they won't be around for the next. The impact of what they are doing now will not be realized until it is too late. And those non-stars who are astute enough to comprehend their impending losses are probably too intimidated to speak up. Such are the frailties of youth.
It all comes down to this: Even though the PA is behaving in a patently self-destructive, irrational, STUPID manner, I find it hard to get angry at them individually (also hard to pity them, given their incredible good fortune in life). But I am disgusted with their leadership. Fehr has a fiduciary responsibility to protect their interests--especially since their interests are so large and their capacity to manage them so limited--and, IMO, HE IS NOT DOING HIS JOB.
Apologies for the rant, but I feel so much better now!

scelaton is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 09:32 PM
  #958
Stej
Good Canadian Kid!
 
Stej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The Kirk
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,800
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I caught the end of the interview with Hainsey and some of Bill Daly on the way home. No question that Hainsey struggled, but no surprise either. Hainsey, Ladd, Toews, Crosby--these are the best the PA has to offer and that is telling.
How many in the PA have gone to University? How many have managed a business? There is such a disparity between how much money these kids make and their ability to make decisions in the real world that it makes the responsibility of their Union leader enormous. He can create all the pseudo-democratic committees he wants, but they are still putty in his hands. Aside from their 'educational' vulnerabilities, they are, by their nature, competitive, team oriented and win-oriented--all attributes that are laudable in an athlete, but not so much when engaged in analytical situations.
Lastly, they are so young! Most weren't around during the last lockout and careers are so short they won't be around for the next. The impact of what they are doing now will not be realized until it is too late. And those non-stars who are astute enough to comprehend their impending losses are probably too intimidated to speak up. Such are the frailties of youth.
It all comes down to this: Even though the PA is behaving in a patently self-destructive, irrational, STUPID manner, I find it hard to get angry at them individually (also hard to pity them, given their incredible good fortune in life). But I am disgusted with their leadership. Fehr has a fiduciary responsibility to protect their interests--especially since their interests are so large and their capacity to manage them so limited--and, IMO, HE IS NOT DOING HIS JOB.
Apologies for the rant, but I feel so much better now!
Well said.

Stej is offline  
Old
10-24-2012, 10:42 PM
  #959
Gm0ney
Registered User
 
Gm0ney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,727
vCash: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian17 View Post
You can listen to the Hainsey interview here,

Look for the link on the right side of the page.

http://www.tsn.ca/winnipeg/
Wow, Hainsey sounds angry.

What does he mean "What's in it for the players?"? If you compare the dollar value of what they received over the term of the last CBA, they're getting a huge raise. I don't understand this belligerence, if it's not posturing.

Here's what happens if tomorrow passes without any progress: "Make Whole" comes off the table. No one is going to get the full value of their contract. It just goes downhill from here as games are cancelled.

Gm0ney is online now  
Old
10-25-2012, 04:53 AM
  #960
ps241
The Danish Dash!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,020
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Wow, Hainsey sounds angry.

What does he mean "What's in it for the players?"? If you compare the dollar value of what they received over the term of the last CBA, they're getting a huge raise. I don't understand this belligerence, if it's not posturing.

Here's what happens if tomorrow passes without any progress: "Make Whole" comes off the table. No one is going to get the full value of their contract. It just goes downhill from here as games are cancelled.
Fehr and the powers that be on the PA side seemingly have the players sold on the Thelma and Louise road less traveled!!! Gas mileage is great boys and check out the view........weeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

ps241 is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 05:02 AM
  #961
ps241
The Danish Dash!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,020
vCash: 50
I though this post from the Business of hockey thread from Marcel who appears to be a player moderate type supporter kind of got it right.

Think the league’s negotiating stance has been very unreasonable, that it poisoned the well with its ludicrous initial offer and that its tone toward the players has been unusually pedantic and patronizing (even for a guy as pedantic and patronizing as Gary Bettman).

All that said – I fear that Fehr is miscalculating here. The elements for a deal are there: 50/50 split at some point in the term and make whole or make almost whole re. existing contracts. If Daly is right that the difference is $ 650 million over a 5 year term, on an annualized basis that’s $130 million. If revenue stayed flat at $3.3 billion (which no one thinks will happen), that means they’re fighting over only 3% of annual revenues, less if you factor in growth. That’s nuts. The sides are too close right now not to do a deal – it would be a highly irrational outcome.

I’ve supported Fehr’s approach to date. He’s been smart to wait for the NHL to finally table a proposal that’s worth negotiating from – but they did that last week. He then signaled with proposal 3 how important make whole was to the players, and Daly has signaled back that the league is willing to talk on that issue.

Cannot understand why, at this point, Fehr wouldn’t say – we have a proposal that’s consistent with your framework (even if it’s not fully), let’s meet. The league has already “blinked”; they did it last week and they’ve continued doing it by signaling flexibility on make whole. At this point, the league is actually right to say that some vague, talky meeting isn’t worthwhile. The moment has come for Fehr to earn his money by showing some real movement that spurs the successful clubs that want to drop the puck to restrain the hard-liners jerking Bettman’s chain from driving this thing off the cliff and get what's a readily do-able deal done.

ps241 is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 10:24 AM
  #962
scelaton
Registered User
 
scelaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I though this post from the Business of hockey thread from Marcel who appears to be a player moderate type supporter kind of got it right.

Think the league’s negotiating stance has been very unreasonable, that it poisoned the well with its ludicrous initial offer and that its tone toward the players has been unusually pedantic and patronizing (even for a guy as pedantic and patronizing as Gary Bettman).

All that said – I fear that Fehr is miscalculating here. The elements for a deal are there: 50/50 split at some point in the term and make whole or make almost whole re. existing contracts. If Daly is right that the difference is $ 650 million over a 5 year term, on an annualized basis that’s $130 million. If revenue stayed flat at $3.3 billion (which no one thinks will happen), that means they’re fighting over only 3% of annual revenues, less if you factor in growth. That’s nuts. The sides are too close right now not to do a deal – it would be a highly irrational outcome.

I’ve supported Fehr’s approach to date. He’s been smart to wait for the NHL to finally table a proposal that’s worth negotiating from – but they did that last week. He then signaled with proposal 3 how important make whole was to the players, and Daly has signaled back that the league is willing to talk on that issue.

Cannot understand why, at this point, Fehr wouldn’t say – we have a proposal that’s consistent with your framework (even if it’s not fully), let’s meet. The league has already “blinked”; they did it last week and they’ve continued doing it by signaling flexibility on make whole. At this point, the league is actually right to say that some vague, talky meeting isn’t worthwhile. The moment has come for Fehr to earn his money by showing some real movement that spurs the successful clubs that want to drop the puck to restrain the hard-liners jerking Bettman’s chain from driving this thing off the cliff and get what's a readily do-able deal done.
Thanks for the transplanted post, ps241. There is so much discussion on the main board that I find it hard to have a real dialogue--sort of like speaking in a crowded auditorium vs a small room. Yet, there are many thoughtful posters there. I would like to maintain a discussion here with a local flavour, but it will help to bring in outside commentary, as you have done.
I found the poster's opening sentence to be the most interesting. Bettman is indeed pedantic and patronizing, but it would be tragic if that were a reason for the PA to do anything different. They should have been told, in no uncertain terms, to IGNORE his persona and focus on his past behaviour, using it as a basis to predict the best outcome for themselves. Who cares if he's a jerk? At least he's a candid and predictable jerk. Similarly, with Fehr, we should all ignore his 'reasonable man' persona and focus on his past and present BEHAVIOUR. On that basis, maybe there is less reason for optimism than many of the 'reasonable' posters had thought.

scelaton is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 06:47 PM
  #963
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
 
garret9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 10,694
vCash: 50
http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/10/...ive-******-ama
"Anonymous team executive offers insight in ****** AMA session"

garret9 is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 07:07 PM
  #964
BigZ65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,801
vCash: 350
Having been involved in labour negotiations before, IMO the NHLPA missed the golden opportunity, the window to October 25. They really have no leverage going forward, this was the best offer in terms of the % of revenue, which shouldn't really be as big of an issue as it is for the NHLPA, much more concerning should be contract limits, escrow, free agency and who/what counts toward the salary cap. All the other details could have been negotiated, but the NHLPA is doing surgery with a jackhammer instead of a scalpel. They will not get a better offer and unless they are going to create their own league, no leverage.

BigZ65 is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 08:05 PM
  #965
PaperRockChamp
Registered User
 
PaperRockChamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Wpg
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,246
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/10/...ive-******-ama
"Anonymous team executive offers insight in ****** AMA session"
I had a ****** window open basically all afternoon yesterday and still missed this AMA. It kind of shows the real interest in the NHL around the globe since it wasn't front page at all.

Hilarious, the story he told of an unnamed player whose "upper body injury" was a hangover, and another's "lower body injury" was a rash.

Also, he anonymously said that the Jamison deal was done and PHX is staying put (he believes that putting an arena in Glendale was stupid)

few more from his answers..

-contraction is out of the question
-relocation is not
-Fla is not moving any time soon
-realignment is an NHLPA bargaining chip right now.
-Winter Classic is very important to the league (obvi)
- League is more concerned aboot the fans who only attend 1-8 games per year

PaperRockChamp is online now  
Old
10-25-2012, 08:42 PM
  #966
ps241
The Danish Dash!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,020
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Thanks for the transplanted post, ps241. There is so much discussion on the main board that I find it hard to have a real dialogue--sort of like speaking in a crowded auditorium vs a small room. Yet, there are many thoughtful posters there. I would like to maintain a discussion here with a local flavour, but it will help to bring in outside commentary, as you have done.
I found the poster's opening sentence to be the most interesting. Bettman is indeed pedantic and patronizing, but it would be tragic if that were a reason for the PA to do anything different. They should have been told, in no uncertain terms, to IGNORE his persona and focus on his past behaviour, using it as a basis to predict the best outcome for themselves. Who cares if he's a jerk? At least he's a candid and predictable jerk. Similarly, with Fehr, we should all ignore his 'reasonable man' persona and focus on his past and present BEHAVIOUR. On that basis, maybe there is less reason for optimism than many of the 'reasonable' posters had thought.
Yea scelaton I have been waiting patiently for the ever crafty Fehr to drop the bomb where he and the PA offer a comprehensive last minute counter of "all issues" that is tantalizing for the league (53, 51, 50, 50 etc etc), swings the public back to their side, and keeps a glimmer for 82 games which is something in the best interests of his constituents financially. I have thought all along he was going to push it to the brink but cut the best deal possible at the last second to preserve maximum revenue for the players. Cold, calculated, BUT PRAGMATIC!!!

"IF" they lose games and real cash just to potentially cut the same or a worse deal at a much later date I believe at best Fehr would have done a poor job communicating and leading the players by keeping them focused on "business". At worst he would have cranked the players up by making it personal to demagogue the issues for reasons that do not best suit the players interests which in my mind would be a breach of his fiduciary duties.

However I shall wait and see how it turns out before I pass my final judgment.

ps241 is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 09:38 PM
  #967
surixon
Registered User
 
surixon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Yea scelaton I have been waiting patiently for the ever crafty Fehr to drop the bomb where he and the PA offer a comprehensive last minute counter of "all issues" that is tantalizing for the league (53, 51, 50, 50 etc etc), swings the public back to their side, and keeps a glimmer for 82 games which is something in the best interests of his constituents financially. I have thought all along he was going to push it to the brink but cut the best deal possible at the last second to preserve maximum revenue for the players. Cold, calculated, BUT PRAGMATIC!!!

"IF" they lose games and real cash just to potentially cut the same or a worse deal at a much later date I believe at best Fehr would have done a poor job communicating and leading the players by keeping them focused on "business". At worst he would have cranked the players up by making it personal to demagogue the issues for reasons that do not best suit the players interests which in my mind would be a breach of his fiduciary duties.

However I shall wait and see how it turns out before I pass my final judgment.
I think he's waiting for the Winter Classic deadline to offer the deal you mentioned myself. Its the only thing that I can think of that would make his and the PA's stalling somewhat understandable. I guess he believes that the owners will have their backs against the walls and will cave again so that the game doesnt get scrapped. IMO its a very dangerous card to play on his part, if he gets it right he looks good and gets something close to the latest deals the PA proposed, but if he underestimates the owners resolve by offering another insulting proposal then he will cost his constiuents dearly because the owners will cancel the game if they have to imo.

surixon is offline  
Old
10-25-2012, 10:03 PM
  #968
Potrzebie
Registered User
 
Potrzebie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 923
vCash: 112
I'm starting to grow really weary of the whole lockout and starting to find lots of other things to do. Not really missing hockey at all. Last season is starting to feel kinda like a dream... like it never really happened at all... and we're now onto a normal Winnipeg winter.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Potrzebie is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 12:09 AM
  #969
scelaton
Registered User
 
scelaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Potrzebie View Post
I'm starting to grow really weary of the whole lockout and starting to find lots of other things to do. Not really missing hockey at all. Last season is starting to feel kinda like a dream... like it never really happened at all... and we're now onto a normal Winnipeg winter.

Anyone else feel the same way?
It's kinda funny, but this whole lockout is playing out like a big hockey game, Owners vs PA. The Owners are the fan favourites but there is plenty of passion on both sides--as evidenced by over a thousand posts per day on the "Business of Hockey" threads on the main board...so it is pretty obvious what some hockey fans are doing with their freed-up time.
I do confess to not missing NHL hockey much either. I know it's coming back sooner or later and, in the meantime: we are incubating some great prospects; Scheifele is blossoming in Barrie, where he belongs; Burmi's time in the AHL is a gift that only a lockout could have given; Kane is getting a well-desrved lesson in humility; Bogo's wrist is healing; and with each passing week TNSE's share of the ultimate deal will be bigger.

What, me worry?


Last edited by scelaton: 10-26-2012 at 12:38 AM.
scelaton is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 12:37 AM
  #970
DespoticNewt
Registered User
 
DespoticNewt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,289
vCash: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It's kinda funny, but this whole lockout is playing out like a big hockey game, Owners vs PA. The Owners are the fan favourites but there is plenty of passion on both sides--as evidenced by over a thousand posts per day on the "Business of Hockey" threads on the main board...so it is pretty obvious what some hockey fans are doing with their freed-up time.
I do confess to not missing NHL hockey much either. I know it's coming back sooner or later and, in the meantime: we are incubating some great prospects; Scheifele is blossoming in Barrie, where he belongs; Burmi's time in the AHL is a gift that only a lockout could have given; Kane is getting a well-desrved lesson in humility; Bogo's wrist is healing; and with each passing weak TNSE's share of the ultimate deal will be bigger.

What, me worry?
Agreed. This lockout is probably the best thing that could happen to the Jets organization for the immediate future.

DespoticNewt is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 12:38 AM
  #971
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
 
garret9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 10,694
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It's kinda funny, but this whole lockout is playing out like a big hockey game, Owners vs PA. The Owners are the fan favourites but there is plenty of passion on both sides--as evidenced by over a thousand posts per day on the "Business of Hockey" threads on the main board...so it is pretty obvious what some hockey fans are doing with their freed-up time.
I do confess to not missing NHL hockey much either. I know it's coming back sooner or later and, in the meantime: we are incubating some great prospects; Scheifele is blossoming in Barrie, where he belongs; Burmi's time in the AHL is a gift that only a lockout could have given; Kane is getting a well-desrved lesson in humility; Bogo's wrist is healing; and with each passing week TNSE's share of the ultimate deal will be bigger.

What, me worry?
Sucks for the "me-now" but is awesome for the "me-longterm"...
I still would like my cake and to eat it too though haha

garret9 is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 07:00 AM
  #972
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 4,724
vCash: 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It's kinda funny, but this whole lockout is playing out like a big hockey game, Owners vs PA. The Owners are the fan favourites but there is plenty of passion on both sides--as evidenced by over a thousand posts per day on the "Business of Hockey" threads on the main board...so it is pretty obvious what some hockey fans are doing with their freed-up time.
I do confess to not missing NHL hockey much either. I know it's coming back sooner or later and, in the meantime: we are incubating some great prospects; Scheifele is blossoming in Barrie, where he belongs; Burmi's time in the AHL is a gift that only a lockout could have given; Kane is getting a well-desrved lesson in humility; Bogo's wrist is healing; and with each passing week TNSE's share of the ultimate deal will be bigger.

What, me worry?
Nice post. I agree there is a likely benifit for the Jets. However, I do miss hockey...quite a lot really

I am also getting tired of primarily reading and posting on the Business of Hockey board rather than talking about the Jets.

KingBogo is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 07:21 AM
  #973
King Woodballs
MVP! MVP! MVP!
 
King Woodballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Your Mind
Posts: 32,150
vCash: 50
All of novmebers games probably cancelled today.
Per Lawless

King Woodballs is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 07:37 AM
  #974
YWGinYYZ
Global Moderator
Alien Hockey Wizard
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,473
vCash: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
All of novmebers games probably cancelled today.
Per Lawless
I think the next gambit for the NHLPA is the Winter Classic - I'm sure they feel that's almost more important to the NHL than playing an 82 game season. I also think that if that has to be canceled, the NHL will cancel the complete season. Last year, I believe preparations started on Dec 1st, so I think if something isn't decided between the two parties by Nov 15th or so, the season is kaput.

As much as I miss hockey, if the season starts with the WC, that would be an incredible kickoff to a shortened run to the playoffs.

YWGinYYZ is offline  
Old
10-26-2012, 07:58 AM
  #975
Mathil8
▌▌▌│▌▌│▌▌▌│▌▌│▌▌▌│▌▌
 
Mathil8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Country: Canada
Posts: 480
vCash: 1117
Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
I think the next gambit for the NHLPA is the Winter Classic - I'm sure they feel that's almost more important to the NHL than playing an 82 game season. I also think that if that has to be canceled, the NHL will cancel the complete season. Last year, I believe preparations started on Dec 1st, so I think if something isn't decided between the two parties by Nov 15th or so, the season is kaput.

As much as I miss hockey, if the season starts with the WC, that would be an incredible kickoff to a shortened run to the playoffs.
HBOs road to the winter classic is going to be incredibly boring this year...

Mathil8 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.