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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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10-25-2012, 08:55 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Subway series rosters? Ovechtrick in the KHL?
Seriously. The use of the generic "hockey" rather than "NHL" or, better yet, "lockout" is highly, highly suspicious.




His next two tweets:
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Haha wow... everyone going nuts.
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Shows how little we have going on... RT @kevanwilkie: @mirtle just poking the anthill to see how much you can stir up?
What an ass.

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10-25-2012, 08:56 PM
  #727
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Is hiring a mediator the next step? "Perhaps," Daly said. "We shall see." #NHL #NHLPA

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10-25-2012, 08:57 PM
  #728
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Get a mediator in there and finish this.

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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Is hiring a mediator the next step? "Perhaps," Daly said. "We shall see." #NHL #NHLPA
Quote:
Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
The NHL and NHLPA exchanged emails today. I asked Bill Daly if an 82 game season can be possible: "looks like there is no chance now."

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10-25-2012, 08:58 PM
  #729
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The NHL and NHLPA exchanged emails today. I asked Bill Daly if an 82 game season can be possible: "looks like there is no chance now."
-Lavoie

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10-25-2012, 09:00 PM
  #730
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Get a mediator in there and finish this.
The way these guys move, they won't agree on a mediator until 2014.

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10-25-2012, 09:03 PM
  #731
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I think hiring a mediator is a GREAT idea in this case. We all know where this is going - which is somewhere in the middle of the last two proposals. Unfortunately, there is so much ill will between the two sides that neither side wants to make another proposal for fear of redefining what the middle will be.

(So stupid that it's come to this. )

A mediator can help drill down to the bottom of where each side is willing to move on each point and cut and paste a compromise deal that gets to the middle without either side "risking" another proposal of its own.

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10-25-2012, 09:05 PM
  #732
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Aaaaaand here's the big payoff from Mirtle:

Quote:
CHLPA plans lawsuit against junior hockey over ‘sweatshop’ conditions for players soc.li/WlhpSAN
Really? You had to tease THAT without at least making it clear that it wasn't related to the lockout? Ass.

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10-25-2012, 09:07 PM
  #733
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It has now become embarrassing being an NHL fan. This league is a god damn JOKE

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10-25-2012, 09:12 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Aaaaaand here's the big payoff from Mirtle:



Really? You had to tease THAT without at least making it clear that it wasn't related to the lockout? Ass.
imagine how many people were waiting for that

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10-25-2012, 09:22 PM
  #735
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I feel like a mediator would have to fight off the strong urge to hurl himself out of a window. It all seems so childish to me

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10-25-2012, 09:27 PM
  #736
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HTTP://cheezburger.com/6687157504

If only it was that easy

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Old
10-25-2012, 09:28 PM
  #737
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Best case scenario is a 60-something game season at this point. Personally I'd love this as it'd make each game more important and less diluted. It'll also make the playoffs more exciting as players'll be more fresh for the tournament. This is of course assuming the concentration of games remains the same unlike the NBA last year.

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10-25-2012, 09:40 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by ChipAyten View Post
Best case scenario is a 60-something game season at this point. Personally I'd love this as it'd make each game more important and less diluted. It'll also make the playoffs more exciting as players'll be more fresh for the tournament. This is of course assuming the concentration of games remains the same unlike the NBA last year.
Honestly that would be exactly what I wanted for the Rangers to begin with.

Save the Winter Classic, give us a 65 game season, start sometime in December.

I'm antsy to get a deal done because I don't want to see the entire season lost. And so on that note, I'd like to see a deal done sooner rather than not at all.

But it really is optimal for the Rangers to start in December with Gaborik joining them from the get-go, and having all that extra time off to rest their legs. At least the ones who aren't playing in Europe (but that's not most of them, and Nash wasn't in the playoffs last year anyway).

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10-26-2012, 04:50 AM
  #739
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Gary Bettman deserves ALL the blame for the league’s stupid, ridiculous, foolish, embarrassing, dumb, idiotic, brainless, irrational, inane, half-witted, absurd, preposterous, insane and mad initial offer to the players – the 43-percent, no arbitration, you-have-to-an-old-man-to-be-a-free-agent offer that also demanded one billion dollars in unmarked bills and a plane to Mexico.

“He works for the owners. He was only doing their bidding,” you say in his defense. Why do the owners need a commissioner then? Why are they paying someone $8 million a year if all he does is act as a stenographer to their wishes? Doesn’t matter anyway. Bettman is smart enough to have known that would be a foolish offer. He should have gone back to the owners and said “OK guys, now you’re pushing it. Let’s be a little more sensible than this, yeah?” But he didn’t. So he gets the blame for not being smarter with his constituents.
This is on Gary. 3 for 3 in lockouts. He is so used to getting his way. I feel sorry for his wife.

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But Bettman blew it again last week by storming out of the room just 10 minutes after the players’ three counter-proposals. Again, that’s on HIM. Who, except for little children, acts like that? I know the league said the players’ offer on the third one – a 50-50 split in exchange for current contracts not being rolled back in any way – wasn’t really 50-50.

OK fine, so sit and hash things out a while longer! How do you just get up and storm out right away, when really you were so close no matter whose math you use?
The NHL refuses to meet. Gary was upset and he stormed out of the room like a teenage girl. A week has passed and Gary is still upset. Where are the adults within the NHL?

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...l-pouts/11810/

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10-26-2012, 06:53 AM
  #740
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Yeah it's really frustrating that the NHL refused to meet at all to discuss things unless the NHLPA was willing to accept the offer as is. In the end it shows this wasn't a "real" offer, just another leverage attempt, and that's just about the most insulting thing...the NHL isn't bargaining here, they're just throwing out ultimatums and setting down deadlines

The players may not have been great but they at least seem to show a willingness to negotiate on some of this stuff instead of giving take it or leave it demands.

So frustrating that the sport is run like this

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10-26-2012, 07:12 AM
  #741
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I know people got upset over the players' offers, I get it. The easy thing to do was use the league's template and incorporate your own ideas. But it isn't a difficult task to do it yourself. At this point the league doesn't get that the value of contracts is important? You field the three offers and see the overall theme. If the league's template is that important, than merge the ideas.

Again, the blame can be applied to both. But I just know that ultimately the only thing keeping hockey off the ice is the fact that 4-8 owners want contracts devalued. This has been a plan for over a year. Lock in your core for long term year, reduce the value, then reduce the cap to fill the rest of the squad cheap. Great idea. But you got caught. You played your hand wrong. Come off your stance. You got the split, you'll gain on every issue. Just suck it up for two seasons and honor a little bit more, not even the full value, and start printing money again.

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10-26-2012, 07:24 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Yeah it's really frustrating that the NHL refused to meet at all to discuss things unless the NHLPA was willing to accept the offer as is. In the end it shows this wasn't a "real" offer, just another leverage attempt, and that's just about the most insulting thing...the NHL isn't bargaining here, they're just throwing out ultimatums and setting down deadlines

The players may not have been great but they at least seem to show a willingness to negotiate on some of this stuff instead of giving take it or leave it demands.

So frustrating that the sport is run like this
We knew he would do it, and he found a way no matter how cautious Fehr was... Bettman found a way to get concession after concession, move the needle in his favor and still not accept a deal. Forget it, 50/50 is set in stone. Those contract issues swung toward the league. The players will never get them back in negotiations. Bettman will freeze them out and start over at his new threshold. The players will look like they are trying to get a raise from 50% to 54% in year one. You even see it from fans," what right do they have to try and get more than 50% in any year, the deal is 50/0, contracts are subject to the CBA." Some how its taken for granted that agreements were made, or only Bettman is allowed to pull deals. Nothing was settled. Its still an open negotiation. Yeah, Gary wants 50%, well the players don't want high escrow. Everyone has a right to ask for it because they are bargaining.

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10-26-2012, 07:39 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Again, the blame can be applied to both.
To a point. I think that this ultimately boils down to right now are the $600 million that the owners want to shave off of existing contracts, either via straight rollback or making the players subsidize the difference. Frankly, I do not spread this portion of the blame to the players.

Not to be morose, but the more that I see it, the more I believe that the season is canceled. And, as I have been saying all along, if that happens, then Fehr will not be in a hurry to start the next one.

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10-26-2012, 08:07 AM
  #744
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I hope the players and Fehr know what they're doing. Seems to me that when there's no 82 game season, therefore less revenue... The proposals going forward will be worse, no better.

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10-26-2012, 08:12 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Get a mediator in there and finish this.
I don't see that happening.

Bettman and Fehr will look worse than they do now if mediation is brought in and settles this thing in a week.
Everyone involved has said "there is a deal to be made". I would expect Bettman and Fehr to ultimately make the deal and claim victory to their constituents.

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10-26-2012, 08:18 AM
  #746
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To a point. I think that this ultimately boils down to right now are the $600 million that the owners want to shave off of existing contracts, either via straight rollback or making the players subsidize the difference. Frankly, I do not spread this portion of the blame to the players.

Not to be morose, but the more that I see it, the more I believe that the season is canceled. And, as I have been saying all along, if that happens, then Fehr will not be in a hurry to start the next one.
I was just trying to be diplomatic. Half the posters won't even consider your post unless you bash the side they hate.

I just took a step back today and realized, the players are taking a beating for asking for something that will give them less of a cut than they have now. Somehow, 50% became the number they are entitled to if the league is so gracious. That 57%, forced on them last time, is long gone. But they get ripped up for asking for less? What happened? The league is reasonable because they started at 43% and got to 50%?

Players are bad for negotiating (this is a negotiation, right?)the drop in their fairly bargained share. According to the CBA they aren't entitled to every cent, but they have the right to negotiate for it. And they get blasted. They accept loses and Gary demands more.

Just go back to July posts on the subject. You'll see 50/50 everywhere, but we also assumed a phased cap or capped escrow. Its in every post. It was taken for granted, assumed the league would offer it in fact. Those were impartial days and that was the notion. Just because Gary says no, public opinion is swayed away from reason.

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10-26-2012, 08:30 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I was just trying to be diplomatic. Half the posters won't even consider your post unless you bash the side they hate.

I just took a step back today and realized, the players are taking a beating for asking for something that will give them less of a cut than they have now. Somehow, 50% became the number they are entitled to if the league is so gracious. That 57%, forced on them last time, is long gone. But they get ripped up for asking for less? What happened? The league is reasonable because they started at 43% and got to 50%?

Players are bad for negotiating (this is a negotiation, right?)the drop in their fairly bargained share. According to the CBA they aren't entitled to every cent, but they have the right to negotiate for it. And they get blasted. They accept loses and Gary demands more.

Just go back to July posts on the subject. You'll see 50/50 everywhere, but we also assumed a phased cap or capped escrow. Its in every post. It was taken for granted, assumed the league would offer it in fact. Those were impartial days and that was the notion. Just because Gary says no, public opinion is swayed away from reason.
I think any impartial person with a brain can see why this isn't easy. You're right... The players are giving up 7% of their salary... It's not easy... No one would ever WANT to do that. "It's for the good of the league... It has to happen to be healthy". We get it. But take into account that they've made 57% for how many years now and it doesn't look as bad. "Hand over fist" is the phrase right? For how many years, decades whatever?

Time to make some real concessions... And yeah it sucks... But it is fair... And it is 7 years overdue.

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10-26-2012, 08:30 AM
  #748
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But I just know that ultimately the only thing keeping hockey off the ice is the fact that 4-8 owners want contracts devalued.
This is probably the biggest thing. I think there's wiggle room on both sides without that, but it really looks like the plan is "devalue existing contracts or lock everyone out forever".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I just took a step back today and realized, the players are taking a beating for asking for something that will give them less of a cut than they have now. Somehow, 50% became the number they are entitled to if the league is so gracious. That 57%, forced on them last time, is long gone. But they get ripped up for asking for less? What happened? The league is reasonable because they started at 43% and got to 50%?
Yeah, also infuriating. The League gets all this credit for moving off a completely ridiculous offer in the first place, they get all this credit for all the "concessions" they made, but when you look at the proposed deal, every single part of it is a win for the league. Lower revenue sharing for the players, contract restrictions, higher free agency age, more team friendly entry level contracts. I don't think there's a single concession towards the players in the entire thing, and then it's bundled up as a take it or leave it deal and then fans get mad that the players don't accept a deal that is a pretty ****** one for them.

Then on top of that, the players get blasted for not "negotiating off of the owners deal", when it turns out the owners have no intention of negotiating off of their deal.

This is a terrible way to run a league IMO. I know it's probably pretty well standard in any sports league but when the owners and players apparently hate each other so much it's just disheartening.

If the owners won't budge I hope this lockout continues. I hope the whole year is lost. I basically hope at this point that the league has to decide whether it wants to win this negotiation so badly that it will risk the league folding.

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10-26-2012, 08:35 AM
  #749
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I basically hope at this point that the league has to decide whether it wants to win this negotiation so badly that it will risk the league folding.
Which is why I say that Fehr will be in no hurry to start next season. When next year arrives, and the owners have not not only lost revenue for the anciliaries, but also are now facing with not selling a single ticket AND two years of playing for free on a TV contract, there will be hang wringing. Yes, the players will feel it. But by next November, the owners will be facing just such a decision as you have outlined.

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10-26-2012, 08:36 AM
  #750
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The way this is going, there won't be hockey this year unless Gary Bettman is fired.

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