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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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10-26-2012, 10:57 AM
  #776
DutchShamrock
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Except the owners said they won't negotiate their offer, it was take it or leave it?
Regardless, is it any reason to walk out? Didn't the PA sit around after the 43% offer? When your greatest crime is not caving, its only one way streets at the table.

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10-26-2012, 11:07 AM
  #777
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Except the owners said they won't negotiate their offer, it was take it or leave it?
It wasn't take it or leave it. They were willing to accept "tweaks". That's too vague to know what that means, and we'll never know because the PA didn't make a legitimate attempt. Maybe if they came in with a gradual phase-in of HRR%, and modest changes to contract limits and free agency, it would have generated legitimate discussions. We'll never know, though.

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10-26-2012, 11:22 AM
  #778
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Those games can be made up at a later date. They haven't cancelled the All Star game. The corporate sponsors like that event. There weren't many smiles and handshakes at the NFL and NBA press conferences. When Stern and Hunter met the media for the first time,they were relieved the season was saved. They were tired but relieved.
The 2 hours a week of negotiating doesn't seem all that tiring. NHL altogether is looking like a huge joke.

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10-26-2012, 11:23 AM
  #779
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What makes me sick is to think that when they finally do have an agreement in place both sides will be smiling and shaking hands after during photo ops.
The last few labor settlements in pro sports you had none of this. I would be shocked if this happens when the NHL and the NHLPA finally reaches a deal

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10-26-2012, 11:25 AM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Except the owners said they won't negotiate their offer, it was take it or leave it?
First of all, the pure "take it or leave it" talk is coming straight from the mouth of Fehr. Which personally I am not willing to take at face value. It may be partly or mostly true but it's posturing.

Second, we will never really know the true stance of the NHL on that offer because the PA chose to kick the hornet's nest. If they had presented a reasonable deal trying to work off the owners' offer and Bettman had still walked out in 15 min (because the owners were not at all flexible) I would 100% be on the PAs side on this.

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10-26-2012, 11:26 AM
  #781
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The longer this goes on the less I care. I'm an absolute die hard, can't live without hockey fan, but you know what **** them

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10-26-2012, 11:31 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
First of all, the pure "take it or leave it" talk is coming straight from the mouth of Fehr. Which personally I am not willing to take at face value. It may be partly or mostly true but it's posturing.

Second, we will never really know the true stance of the NHL on that offer because the PA chose to kick the hornet's nest. If they had presented a reasonable deal trying to work off the owners' offer and Bettman had still walked out in 15 min (because the owners were not at all flexible) I would 100% be on the PAs side on this.
Ok so the PA isn't allowed to present any offers or they're not playing fair, kicking the hornets nest, being ungrateful, selfish, whatever other descriptors we want to dig up

Suddenly in negotiations it's not allowed to try to present another view, fantastic

It's not even like the plans are that different or the numbers are that different but man do people want to cling to that "but the players didn't negotiate off the owners plan!" like that really makes a difference when it comes to the behavior of the owners

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10-26-2012, 11:34 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Ok so the PA isn't allowed to present any offers or they're not playing fair, kicking the hornets nest, being ungrateful, selfish, whatever other descriptors we want to dig up
The PA had months to present reasonable offers, and chose not to.

The NHL stepped up and presented a much more workable offer than anything previously offered by either side, and the PA decided to ignore it.

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10-26-2012, 11:40 AM
  #784
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The NHL stepped up and presented a much more workable offer than anything previously offered by either side, and the PA decided to ignore it.
Demanding that the players pay a portion of other players salaries, is not what I call workable.

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10-26-2012, 11:41 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Thordic View Post
The PA had months to present reasonable offers, and chose not to.

The NHL stepped up and presented a much more workable offer than anything previously offered by either side, and the PA decided to ignore it.
Dont' see what this has to do with whether or not the PA is allowed to present their own offers. Didn't know that collective bargaining had a clause that says "both sides must bargain over the deal that the fans think is the most fair"

Honestly I think the players have been greedy about this but the way the owners have treated them, this process, and the fans is worse in my mind and why most of my ire is reserved for them

It also reminds me how poorly this country thinks about organized labor and that irritates me a lot

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10-26-2012, 11:42 AM
  #786
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It's not even like the plans are that different or the numbers are that different
Really, they aren't?

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10-26-2012, 11:45 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Thordic View Post
The PA had months to present reasonable offers, and chose not to.

The NHL stepped up and presented a much more workable offer than anything previously offered by either side, and the PA decided to ignore it.
Doesn't change Levitate's point. For some reason the players' window to make a proposal closed. The league never made a "reasonable" offer until a few weeks ago. The league has known for months that the players want some protection for current salaries and they chose to ignore that. The could have easily incorporated that into their proposal instead of kicking the hornets' nest with that ridiculous make whole sham. We would have a deal if the NHL just stepped up and conceded one thingto the players.

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10-26-2012, 11:49 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Dont' see what this has to do with whether or not the PA is allowed to present their own offers. Didn't know that collective bargaining had a clause that says "both sides must bargain over the deal that the fans think is the most fair"

Honestly I think the players have been greedy about this but the way the owners have treated them, this process, and the fans is worse in my mind and why most of my ire is reserved for them

It also reminds me how poorly this country thinks about organized labor and that irritates me a lot
I don't think anyone is saying the players don't/shouldn't have the right to make a proposal of their own, with their own ideas. My problem their proposals were (in my view at least) unreasonable. If they were to have come up with a unique, reasonable original offer, I would have been encouraged.

I think the fact that we were lead to believe the proposal would be working off the NHL's offer was problem as well, though I don't think that was the PA's fault.

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10-26-2012, 11:57 AM
  #789
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Really, they aren't?
The league cherry picked numbers and said the *coughfirstyearcough* isn't 50%. No ****. It gets to 50% when contracts expire.

Could be wrong, but on the main board the player proposal was supposedly 13% guaranteed money for the escrow protection. The remaining 87% was subject to a *43.5%* revenue split... that's 50% of the remaining 87% of salaries. We speculated that 13% was completely exempt of all revenue calculations last week, Effectively a 56% split. That really changes the numbers. Again, I can't attest to those numbers.

That league guy on ******, another cherry picker. Claims revenue splits went from 47% to 57% over the last CBA. I'd like to know how he got 47% when the players were guaranteed 56% in the first year. Wait, was that the calculation based on the hidden revenues that the league's schill running the union didn't audit? 47%, like the union swindled 10% from the owners. Please.

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10-26-2012, 12:03 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
The league cherry picked numbers and said the *coughfirstyearcough* isn't 50%. No ****. It gets to 50% when contracts expire.

Could be wrong, but on the main board the player proposal was supposedly 13% guaranteed money for the escrow protection. The remaining 87% was subject to a *43.5%* revenue split... that's 50% of the remaining 87% of salaries. We speculated that 13% was completely exempt of all revenue calculations last week, Effectively a 56% split. That really changes the numbers. Again, I can't attest to those numbers.

That league guy on ******, another cherry picker. Claims revenue splits went from 47% to 57% over the last CBA. I'd like to know how he got 47% when the players were guaranteed 56% in the first year. Wait, was that the calculation based on the hidden revenues that the league's schill running the union didn't audit? 47%, like the union swindled 10% from the owners. Please.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...-memo/1646071/

Quote:
This is the much-talked-about 50-50 split with owners honoring existing contracts. Essentially, players' current contracts would be split into two parts: the 13% they would lose under the owners' proposal and the remaining 87%. The 13% wouldn't count toward the players' share or the cap and the 87% would be subject to the 50-50 split.

Wrote Fehr: "This means that an individual player under an existing contract would receive the 13% segregated, plus a normal payment, subject to escrow, of 87% of his salary. A player with a new contract would have 100% of his salary subject to the 50-50 split. However, since the 13% of existing contracts are off the cap, this should create more cap space, which will be important as the cap will be squeezed. Over time, the existing contracts expire, and the share will fall towards 50%."

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly had publicly objected to this proposal, saying players would get a 56% to 57% share in the first year and he doubted that the split would ever reach 50-50.

Commissioner Gary Bettman rejected all three proposals in about 15 minutes, Fehr said. Outside, talking to news reporters, Bettman said the two sides weren't speaking the same language.
I don't consider having 13% of all existing contracts being held off the cap reasonable, do you?

And no, I don't think it's reasonable for the NHL to go to 50% immediately forcing the players to take an immediate reduction.

I wish that one side would have came in with the 50-50 split phased in, like we all know they are going to agree on eventually.

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10-26-2012, 12:14 PM
  #791
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I don't think anyone is saying the players don't/shouldn't have the right to make a proposal of their own, with their own ideas. My problem their proposals were (in my view at least) unreasonable. If they were to have come up with a unique, reasonable original offer, I would have been encouraged.

I think the fact that we were lead to believe the proposal would be working off the NHL's offer was problem as well, though I don't think that was the PA's fault.
Unique and original like the owners' proposal. They pat themselves on the back about the success of their CBA and overnight cry poor, victims of the greedy players. The system is broke, their words. Their original solution: Same thing, bigger cut. Wait, same thing? This was question #1 from the players. If it's broken, lets find a new solution. Denied.

The main problem is the floor is too high for bottom teams. This proposal doesn't get them more pre-split revenue outside of some sharing. Give it a few years, and I guarantee, with growth and northern relocation, the bottom teams will not keep pace with the cap floor. They are just increasing the profit margin of big city teams like NY, PHI, TOR, and BOS. Wait a second, Boston and Philly? Jacobs and Snider... 50% of the negotiation committee? That's a mighty strange coincidence.

How does the league proposal make the league healthy? I wouldn't surrender money if it's just going to profitable teams.

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10-26-2012, 12:17 PM
  #792
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John Buccigross ‏@Buccigross
NHL sources tell me the NHL will cancel Winter Classic and All Star Game. Announcement presently scheduled for Monday.

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10-26-2012, 12:17 PM
  #793
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@Buccigross: NHL sources tell me the NHL will cancel Winter Classic and All Star Game. Announcement presently scheduled for Monday.

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10-26-2012, 12:17 PM
  #794
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**** this league.

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10-26-2012, 12:20 PM
  #795
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If the WC goes there's not much motivation to get the rest of the games in for the league. That was the money-maker.

I was holding out on the realism that the players or owners wouldn't let the league be tarnished further by losing their second full-season in less than a decade. Each day that passes I realize how naive I truly was.

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10-26-2012, 12:21 PM
  #796
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Well, they still have a weekend to make up their minds. Could be interesting, but probably won't be

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10-26-2012, 12:21 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
The main problem is the floor is too high for bottom teams. This proposal doesn't get them more pre-split revenue outside of some sharing.
What other way is there to get revenue to smaller market teams, besides revenue sharing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Give it a few years, and I guarantee, with growth and northern relocation, the bottom teams will not keep pace with the cap floor.
And I'm sure that's a paramount concern of the players.

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10-26-2012, 12:24 PM
  #798
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...-memo/1646071/



I don't consider having 13% of all existing contracts being held off the cap reasonable, do you?

And no, I don't think it's reasonable for the NHL to go to 50% immediately forcing the players to take an immediate reduction.

I wish that one side would have came in with the 50-50 split phased in, like we all know they are going to agree on eventually.
Again, why do PA proposals have to be bullseyes and not starting points? A 43% split isn't reasonable but the players were expected to counter that, which they did with 54%. It's all steps along the way, but players get punished for their path. Why is the league always offended by negotiations? Professional bargainers and lawyers. Generalisimo Bettman forgot his roots.

Why not counter with a 5% exemption, settle at 6.5/8%? I don't intend to always come off as a player apologist, but they get railroaded for anything that isn't surrender.

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10-26-2012, 12:26 PM
  #799
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John Buccigross ‏@Buccigross
NHL sources tell me the NHL will cancel Winter Classic and All Star Game. Announcement presently scheduled for Monday.
Its Buccigross, guy is completely full of it most of the time. They aren't going to cancel WC this soon. The league has yet to formally announce November games are cancelled.

At worst, its just a threatening by the NHL. Remember, they were supposed to cancel the WC a couple of days ago according to "insiders."

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10-26-2012, 12:32 PM
  #800
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If they haven't canceled any games into December, they won't cancel the WC this early. Maybe in two weeks.

If they do end up canceling the WC, then I'm going to assume there's no hockey this season.

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