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2012 NFL Season - Yes, they actually play games in this league!

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10-25-2012, 02:39 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
That's well thought out and everything, but if RG3 continues to lead the league in YPA, how can anyone really criticize his passing game?
A lot of that has to do with the playcalling. While a lot of QBs have incompletions throwing against zone defenses, Griffin has the short passes picking up the 5 yards. Not to mention once in a while, those receivers can turn them upfield for 20 yards or even further, which I'm sure several Redskin receivers have done already.

I'm not sure if the NFL has a statistic like this but if they do I'm sure you know where do get it. Is there an adjusted yards per completion/attempt stat that takes difficulty of throw into consideration?

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Because apparently he runs too much to be taken seriously. I've actually heard that as an argument. No, I don't understand how that's a criticism either.
It's not that he runs too much, it's the way he runs. He runs as if he has the body of Tebow. I'm not sure if he's aware of how tiny his frame is compared to the rest of the plyers on the field, and although he has toned it down a bit since his concussion, it's just a matter of time before he gets that invincible feeling. I hope he can prove me wrong though because he's a very special player if he can utilize his skills in a safer fashion. I made the comparison earlier, but he's pretty much an improved version of McNabb, and if he can run the way McNabb did instead of the way Vick did, he will have a much more successful career. He will take fewer hits, his legs will last longer, and he will make the players on his team better.

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10-25-2012, 02:45 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
A lot of that has to do with the playcalling. While a lot of QBs have incompletions throwing against zone defenses, Griffin has the short passes picking up the 5 yards. Not to mention once in a while, those receivers can turn them upfield for 20 yards or even further, which I'm sure several Redskin receivers have done already.

I'm not sure if the NFL has a statistic like this but if they do I'm sure you know where do get it. Is there an adjusted yards per completion/attempt stat that takes difficulty of throw into consideration?
I'm not sure, but I don't think it's really relevant.

While Griffin might not be making overly difficult passes, somehow he is finding a way to convert those passes into very efficient gains. I really don't care what the playcalling is, because if a QB is leading the NFL in YPA, he's doing a good job at passing the football.

We can talk all the semantics we want, but if the result is that Griffin is gaining more yards per pass attempt than every other QB, that's what matters.

Now, we'll see if it continues.

EDIT: And YPA on "Air Yards" more or less addresses what you want. http://wp.advancednflstats.com/airYardsStats.php
This measures the QB's passing yards without factoring in YAC. But I don't like this stat that much. It takes away the skill of being able to lead receivers and place the ball properly. Also, there are some funky results. Sanchez and Skelton top six?

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10-25-2012, 04:58 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
A lot of that has to do with the playcalling. While a lot of QBs have incompletions throwing against zone defenses, Griffin has the short passes picking up the 5 yards. Not to mention once in a while, those receivers can turn them upfield for 20 yards or even further, which I'm sure several Redskin receivers have done already.

I'm not sure if the NFL has a statistic like this but if they do I'm sure you know where do get it. Is there an adjusted yards per completion/attempt stat that takes difficulty of throw into consideration?
Brady has made a career out of these. As long as he can also do the long passes, there's nothing wrong with that short passes strategy. RGIII appears to have the long throw ability, more so than running QBs of the past.

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10-25-2012, 06:43 PM
  #154
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Brady has made a career out of these. As long as he can also do the long passes, there's nothing wrong with that short passes strategy. RGIII appears to have the long throw ability, more so than running QBs of the past.
Personally, I think Brady is the single most overrated player in the last 20+ years but that's for a differnt discussion. Either way, Brady throws the slant routes a few yards downfield but the throws I'm referring to with Griffin are those snap and throw to the WR behind the line of scrimmage. I can complete those throws.

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10-26-2012, 07:55 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Personally, I think Brady is the single most overrated player in the last 20+ years but that's for a differnt discussion. Either way, Brady throws the slant routes a few yards downfield but the throws I'm referring to with Griffin are those snap and throw to the WR behind the line of scrimmage. I can complete those throws.

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10-26-2012, 08:08 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Personally, I think Brady is the single most overrated player in the last 20+ years but that's for a differnt discussion. Either way, Brady throws the slant routes a few yards downfield but the throws I'm referring to with Griffin are those snap and throw to the WR behind the line of scrimmage. I can complete those throws.
RGIII does the slant route throws too, not all his passes are to receivers at the line of scrimmage.

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10-26-2012, 08:27 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Personally, I think Brady is the single most overrated player in the last 20+ years but that's for a differnt discussion. Either way, Brady throws the slant routes a few yards downfield but the throws I'm referring to with Griffin are those snap and throw to the WR behind the line of scrimmage. I can complete those throws.
And so can every other QB in the NFL. Yet, somehow, Griffin manages to get the most yards out of all of his throws...

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10-26-2012, 10:32 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
Brady is a very good QB, don't get me wrong, but I think most QB's in the NFL could step into the Belichick offense and succeed. I mean, look at what happened when Brady went down for a year. Matt Cassel looked like a prodigy and they still won 10 games. Now how does Cassel look? In opposite fashion, look what happened when Peyton was out. Two garbage wins for the Colts with 2 or 3 different starters, all of which sucked.

Belichick is the true elite talent on the Pats. Every year he makes a tweak to his offense and looks like a genius. One day he as Givens, Branch, and Patten looking like pro bowlers. Then he's got Randy Moss breaking TD records. Then it's Wes Welker catching 110 balls a year. Then it's a dual TE system. Now he's got like 15 RB's that are capable of being starters. Brady has made him look good, but Belichick makes Brady look like one of the all time greats.

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RGIII does the slant route throws too, not all his passes are to receivers at the line of scrimmage.
I understand that but I see those quick passes from Griffin a lot more than any other QB in the league. That's not really a slight on him though. He doesn't call the plays. Shanahan even said he threw in an abundance of those plays because they want to skyrocket RG3's confidence early in his career.

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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
And so can every other QB in the NFL. Yet, somehow, Griffin manages to get the most yards out of all of his throws...
Right. Not sure how to explain it honestly. I don't think anyone is ready to compare RG3 to the great QB's in the league yet though. If I had to guess, I'd attribute it to Griffin going to the perfect team given his skillset and inexperience. Shanahan is a great coach and the WR's the Redskins have truly compliment what Shanahan is asking Griffin to do.

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10-26-2012, 10:36 AM
  #159
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Peyton > Brady for sure

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10-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #160
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The system argument against Brady is about as dumb as the system argument against Marty. And i can't even stand the Cheatriots.

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10-26-2012, 11:02 AM
  #161
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Matt Cassel succeeded in NE because of his supporting cast. now his team sucks in KC therefore he is failing. sure the system is better, but that does not take away from what Brady has done.

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10-26-2012, 11:11 AM
  #162
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lol Cassel took over the year after their perfect season, they were still loaded. And he did win a division title his first year in KC, it's amazing how fast people forgot that season.

As far as Brady, he's not overrated. He won three Super Bowls with mediocre WR's, then when Billy Boy finally got him weapons, he set records.

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10-26-2012, 11:36 AM
  #163
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The system argument against Brady is about as dumb as the system argument against Marty. And i can't even stand the Cheatriots.
Yep, agreed. Brady doesn't just "look like" an all-time great because of the system, he is an all-time great with some tremendous accomplishments that not every QB could pull off. The Patriots' system relies on him being able to make those throws just as much as Brady relies on the system consistently providing him with short yardage targets on check downs.

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10-26-2012, 12:05 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
Matt Cassel succeeded in NE because of his supporting cast. now his team sucks in KC therefore he is failing. sure the system is better, but that does not take away from what Brady has done.
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lol Cassel took over the year after their perfect season, they were still loaded. And he did win a division title his first year in KC, it's amazing how fast people forgot that season.

As far as Brady, he's not overrated. He won three Super Bowls with mediocre WR's, then when Billy Boy finally got him weapons, he set records.
That's exactly my point. The supporting cast. The system Brady plays in allows for any QB to succeed. Again, I think Brady is an extraordinary QB, but if you put him on a different team, he wouldn't have nearly as much success.

I usually only argue against Brady when some moron compares him to Manning. The point I usually make is that if you Peyton on the Patriots, he breaks those records even more than Brady did. If you put Brady on the Colts, they'd go from a perennial 12 win to to a perennial 10 win team because of the complexity of the offense. And let's be honest. If you give the Colts the defense that the Pats had, Manning would have 3 Super Bowls just as easily as Brady. The ONE year the Colts had a halfway decent D, the Colts won the Super Bowl.

Just my view, though.

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10-26-2012, 12:58 PM
  #165
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Brady NOW has loads of weapons on offense. what did he used to have? Deion Branch, Jabar Gaffney, Corey Dillon, etc?

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10-26-2012, 01:56 PM
  #166
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Yeah, and when he was throwing to those guys, his stats weren't particularly impressive compared to the rest of the league.

Here are his rankings in terms of total passing yards, total passing TDs, and yards per attempt that everyone seems to love with RG3.

2001 - Not top 10 in any
2002 - 6th, 1st, not top 10
2003 - 6th, 10th, not top 10
2004 - 10th, 6th, 8th
2005 - 1st, 3rd, 6th
2006 - 7th, 4th, not top 10
2007 - 1st, 1st, 1st
2008 - ACL injury
2009 - 5th, 6th, not top 10
2010 - 8th, 1st, 5th
2011 - 2nd, 4th, 2nd

He's had 3 elite years - 2005, 2007, and 2011 - and a bunch of good to very good years. He's a very good QB, I will not deny that. I do not believe he is in the greatest QB ever conversation that you can have with Montana, Marino, Manning, and Elway, although some people like to throw him in there. That's what I mean when I say he's overrated. Some people will put him into that conversation which I don't believe he belongs in.

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10-26-2012, 02:00 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Yeah, and when he was throwing to those guys, his stats weren't particularly impressive compared to the rest of the league.

Here are his rankings in terms of total passing yards, total passing TDs, and yards per attempt that everyone seems to love with RG3.

2001 - Not top 10 in any
2002 - 6th, 1st, not top 10
2003 - 6th, 10th, not top 10
2004 - 10th, 6th, 8th
2005 - 1st, 3rd, 6th
2006 - 7th, 4th, not top 10
2007 - 1st, 1st, 1st
2008 - ACL injury
2009 - 5th, 6th, not top 10
2010 - 8th, 1st, 5th
2011 - 2nd, 4th, 2nd

He's had 3 elite years - 2005, 2007, and 2011 - and a bunch of good to very good years. He's a very good QB, I will not deny that. I do not believe he is in the greatest QB ever conversation that you can have with Montana, Marino, Manning, and Elway, although some people like to throw him in there. That's what I mean when I say he's overrated. Some people will put him into that conversation which I don't believe he belongs in.
You can't compare statistics today from statistics ten years ago without indexing them to the league average.

The median amount of passing yards, TDs, and YPA was not the same in 2002 as it is today.

And that makes RG3 look less good. I also don't think anyone is anointing him as one of the best QBs ever.

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10-26-2012, 02:07 PM
  #168
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And just because I'm a huge Peyton Fan and I'm pretty bored, here are Peyton's rankings for each of those same 11 seasons:

2001 - 2nd, 5th, 5th
2002 - 3rd, 2nd, 3rd
2003 - 1st, 2nd, 4th
2004 - 3rd, 1st, 1st
2005 - 7th, 2nd, 2nd
2006 - 2nd, 1st, 4th
2007 - 7th, 4th, 4th
2008 - 6th, 5th, not top 10
2009 - 2nd, 2nd, 8th
2010 - 2nd, 2nd, not top 10
2011 - Neck Injury

These are the rankings I expect from one of the best QB's ever.

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10-26-2012, 02:07 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
You can't compare statistics today from statistics ten years ago without indexing them to the league average.

The median amount of passing yards, TDs, and YPA was not the same in 2002 as it is today.

And that makes RG3 look less good. I also don't think anyone is anointing him as one of the best QBs ever.
I think you're confused. Those are all Brady's rankings each year. Nothing to do with RG3.

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10-26-2012, 02:16 PM
  #170
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I think you're confused. Those are all Brady's rankings each year. Nothing to do with RG3.
Oh...

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10-26-2012, 02:22 PM
  #171
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Peyton's always had good WR's though, it's not like Harrison, Wayne, Stokley and Dallas Clark were chopped liver. Edge James was better than any Pats RB. And he played in a dome while Brady has to throw in Northeast weather.

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10-26-2012, 06:46 PM
  #172
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Harrison and Wayne were a sick duo, but Stokely and Clark was nothing special. Honestly, has anyone heard Stokely's name without Peyton being on his team? And I didn't even know the Buccs had Dallas Clark until last week. Thought he was still a free agent. Might as well be with the stat production he's put up.

And when you take Manning off of that Colts team that won 12 games on average from 2003-2010, they went 2-14. That shows how important he was.

Edge is a damn shame though. He could have been one of the 5 best RB's ever if he didn't hurt his knee and didn't join two awful running teams after jumping ship. I think he had 4400 yards and 35 TDs his first two years before messing his knee up. He was an unreal RB. It took him two seasons to return to elite form and then two years after that he left for the pass happy Cardinals and his career took a nose dive. He was a truly special player.

That being said, Manning only got 5 solid years out of Edge, and FWIW New England has had the better overall rushing attack 7 out of the last 11 seasons (Brady's rookie year to last season.) That includes Peyton's last three healthy seasons where Indi ranked in the bottom 5 in rushing each year.

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10-26-2012, 07:01 PM
  #173
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Harrison and Wayne were a sick duo, but Stokely and Clark was nothing special. Honestly, has anyone heard Stokely's name without Peyton being on his team?
Literally the only thing that comes to mind of Stokely at all is this:



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10-26-2012, 07:02 PM
  #174
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i also dont buy the "product of the system" argument against Brady. As a Devils fan i'd think you'd stay away from that argument Clemmer did good when Marty went down, remember?

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10-26-2012, 07:33 PM
  #175
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re: Stokely, Manning said he would take him in the slot over anyone.

So, yeah. He's a fine player.

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