The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
The players simply have no leverage. Every day they fail to come to an agreement, they lose more of their salaries, and that is money that they will never recoup. There are many league owners who regard their NHL franchises are mere cogs in their empires, even bordering on inconsequential in terms of dollars. The Leafs are the poster child for this; while their profits are tops in the NHL by a mile, one of their corporate owners make about half as much pure profit as the entire league earns in REVENUE.
There is literally nothing the NHLPA can do to exert leverage on such owners. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. They cannot "win" this negotiation. The best they can do is limit their "losses" but it seems they're not even interested in that. They're in full-blown Don Quixote mode, tilting at windmills and refighting the battles of the past (and it's not even their own battles they are refighting; they're letting their new head refight his old battles with MLB).
The players are going to lose a lot worse now than if they'd just signed that last NHL offer without changing a single thing in it.
NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr repeated his doomsday threat that the players could take the salary cap off the table depending on how long the NHL lockout drags out.
It's not a new public threat. It was raised in New York Sept. 13, when talks between the two sides first broke off after a day of bargaining and then a day of the two sides meeting separately to assess their positions.
It's apparently an option he raised numerous times over the course of the summer with the owners before it became a public talking point a month ago.
When asked then if the players would reconsider playing under a salary cap after the NHLPA meeting broke up that day in New York, Fehr replied: "What I have said before and the only thing I am prepared to say now is that if we get past that point, then the players are as free to reconsider their positions as the owners. That's all I can say."
you know what? Bettmen has 3 work stoppage under his belt..right?"
At some point in time you got to address the root cause.....
I do believe Fehr will accomplish that.....even if we get pain , it will save pain later down road in 5 10 15 years etc...
It's true Bettman has 3 work stoppages under his belt, and I am no fan of him, but you would think by now people would realize that he is only doing what the "core" power owners are telling him to do. There may be 30 teams in this league, but the direction of the league is controlled by a handful of owners that the other owners just get the privilege of going along for the ride with.
You have moderate owners who thought the last NHL offer was a good one, but you also have owners that think the NHL went too far in their offer, and you also have owners that want to destroy the union, so ....
Fire Bettman, go ahead... we would still be exactly where we are today.
False premise. That isn't the only option. Not that the owners' last ultimatum did much to protect the weak teams. A relocation and a bankruptcy.
The last CBA was a compromise that clearly was too stressful on the weaker teams. It's laughable for them to keep bemoaning the last deal as a grand capitulation.
The players simply have no leverage. Every day they fail to come to an agreement, they lose more of their salaries, and that is money that they will never recoup. There are many league owners who regard their NHL franchises are mere cogs in their empires, even bordering on inconsequential in terms of dollars. The Leafs are the poster child for this; while their profits are tops in the NHL by a mile, one of their corporate owners make about half as much pure profit as the entire league earns in REVENUE.
There is literally nothing the NHLPA can do to exert leverage on such owners. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. They cannot "win" this negotiation. The best they can do is limit their "losses" but it seems they're not even interested in that. They're in full-blown Don Quixote mode, tilting at windmills and refighting the battles of the past (and it's not even their own battles they are refighting; they're letting their new head refight his old battles with MLB).
The players are going to lose a lot worse now than if they'd just signed that last NHL offer without changing a single thing in it.
Assuming that you're correct and that they have no leverage, what could their end game possibly be?
So would the entire fields of mathematics and accounting.
The NHL does not generate enough revenue to 'honor' (by the NHLPA's definition) all existing contracts out of 50% of revenue. The "make whole" provision only existed to try to bridge the gap between "Honored contracts" and "50%". If you take away "make whole", then how do you bridge the gap?
So you pay the extra outside of the cap like the PA's third proposal. The NHLPA insisted that they re-visit the HRR definitions in that proposal, which is why the NHL shot it down so fast.
And every single case of franchise failings, you'll come up with a different reason or excuse.
What exactly does the lockout-derived cap system deliver then?
There's always going to be problem franchises here and there, way too many variables in play to solely CBAs.
A lockout-derived non-cap/soft cap system would just as much if not more damage.
We had no cap before the last lockout, how healthy was the league then ? not very.
So if an owner like Tom Hicks blows all his money on Liverpool FC, it's the CBA's fault that the Dallas Stars are in trouble ? If only we had no cap ... that would fix everything ...
Lack of a cap is a fundamental non-starter for the league.
If Fehr actually takes the cap off the table we might as well just stop paying attention until a labor impasse is declared and the NLRB and courts dictate a settlement.
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The last CBA was a compromise that clearly was too stressful on the weaker teams. It's laughable for them to keep bemoaning the last deal as a grand capitulation.
It was a grand capitulation at the time. 54% of HRR and 24% rollback. No one knew what revenues would do as the NHL was the only league to ever lose an entire season. Would sponsors and fans return? Would they get a national TV deal? Everything was up for renewal.
They also changed many rules, so there was a certain amount of risk.
What I take exception to though isn't so much what did eventuate but what Bettman promised would be the result: a level playing field where all 30 franchises had the chance to be financially healthy.
Almost half of the owners around at that time have since cashed out! Two teams were sold twice (TB and ST Louis). Meanwhile, the two wealthiest franchises were sold for record levels, and the second wealthiest NHL owner has put his entertainment business on the block.
Looking at everything Fehr has spun so far, no wonder the players are brainwashed beyond recovery. The season is truly hopeless unless there's another Trever Linden out there. Is there?
Last edited by CN_paladin: 10-26-2012 at 02:27 PM.
The players simply have no leverage. Every day they fail to come to an agreement, they lose more of their salaries, and that is money that they will never recoup. There are many league owners who regard their NHL franchises are mere cogs in their empires, even bordering on inconsequential in terms of dollars. The Leafs are the poster child for this; while their profits are tops in the NHL by a mile, one of their corporate owners make about half as much pure profit as the entire league earns in REVENUE.
There is literally nothing the NHLPA can do to exert leverage on such owners. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. They cannot "win" this negotiation. The best they can do is limit their "losses" but it seems they're not even interested in that. They're in full-blown Don Quixote mode, tilting at windmills and refighting the battles of the past (and it's not even their own battles they are refighting; they're letting their new head refight his old battles with MLB).
The players are going to lose a lot worse now than if they'd just signed that last NHL offer without changing a single thing in it.
If you truly believed that the players had no leverage the owners would offer them, take it or leave it, 25% of HRR, no free agency, no guaranteed contracts, etc. take it or leave it call us when you're ready to sign.
Instead the owners recognize that in order to make any money, in order to run any teams, they need players.
I certainly think it's true that owners have more leverage than players, but the players are far from powerless.
Looking at everything Fehr has spun so far, no wonder the players are brainwashed beyond recovery. The season is truly hopeless unless there's another Trever Linden out there. Is there any left?
The owners want the players to bleed a little bit and make them starve before coming back to the table. They want some unrest from the union in order to create a sense of desperation for them to cut a deal. Least that is what I believe is the league's strategy.
It was a grand capitulation at the time. 54% of HRR and 24% rollback. No one knew what revenues would do as the NHL was the only league to ever lose an entire season. Would sponsors and fans return? Would they get a national TV deal? Everything was up for renewal.
They also changed many rules, so there was a certain amount of risk.
What I take exception to though isn't so much what did eventuate but what Bettman promised would be the result: a level playing field where all 30 franchises had the chance to be financially healthy.
Almost half of the owners around at that time have since cashed out! Two teams were sold twice (TB and ST Louis). Meanwhile, the two wealthiest franchises were sold for record levels, and the secind wealthiest NHL owner has put his entertainment business on the block.
Was Bettman's promise delivered?
To be fair, I think you need to differentiate between teams that are well run but still having troubles making profits due to high salary costs and teams that are either run terribly (NYI) or are in terrible locations (Phoenix).
It's hardly fair to blame the NYI money losses and move on the CBA when they haven't ran the team in even a remotely competent manner in many years.
I absolutely agree that there are still teams in the first column (I think I saw SJS were losing money despite being a fairly successful team), but conflating the issue of bad management with a CBA that doesn't provide the proper structure is unfair.
All of the PA's proposals so far have been a re-worded versions of the same one. The one where the players get roughly 57% and nothing less. Any intelligent person should see that.
Someone should tell Mr Fehr that he should stop fighting the PR war, he's already lost
According to who, this board?
Don't make the mistake of thinking the sentiment on this board (the BoH forum in particular) is widely shared by everyone observing this lockout.
The fans here are 'hardcore'; they'll support their chosen teams regardless of on ice success or star talent. But unfortunately, the majority of the leagues fans aren't of the same ilk. Casual fans, and by extension the majority of the public perception sees this primarily as a millionaires vs. billionaires battle of greed followed by an owner instigated lockout who after getting what they wanted on the 2004-2005 lockout, are doing it again because they just want more despite record revenues and Bettman continuously boasting that the league has never been in better shape.
If you truly believed that the players had no leverage the owners would offer them, take it or leave it, 25% of HRR, no free agency, no guaranteed contracts, etc. take it or leave it call us when you're ready to sign.
Instead the owners recognize that in order to make any money, in order to run any teams, they need players.
I certainly think it's true that owners have more leverage than players, but the players are far from powerless.
The deal on the table is analogous or better than the deals in the NFL and NBA. The players would like to see a MLB deal. Guess which end of the spectrum the final deal will fall on?
Assuming that you're correct and that they have no leverage, what could their end game possibly be?
The players? They are trying to get the best deal possible. I have a hunch the owners just took it off the table. Whatever deal gets put in front of the players in the future, especially in the event of a full lost season, will not be 50-50. Fehr is leading the lemmings right off a fiscal cliff.
Assuming that you're correct and that they have no leverage, what could their end game possibly be?
I used to think the PA believed the moderate & smaller market owners were going to get squeezed a lot worse by a long lockout than they did last time and would push to get a deal. Well.. that already happened. The PA promptly spat on that offer.
So I simply don't know what the PA's end game is, or if they even have one. I'm coming to believe that the PA is viewing this negotiation far too emotionally -- they felt they gave up a ton in 2005 and Bettman ended up beating the crap out of them and they will be damned if they let that happen again. It's clouding their judgment; they're showing that they're willing to watch the whole thing burn down around them than "lose" again.
I don't know how this legacy of mutual distrust and animosity between the NHL and NHLPA will ever be repaired.
That'll tend to happen when Fehr responded to the NHL moving closer to him by showing up an hour late and saying he wants to redefine accounting rules so he can get more than he had previously asked for.
