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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-26-2012, 10:42 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by SirPaste View Post
Petro Doughty Karlsson, voted on all around play, not just offensive flair.
The question should always be what player makes a team more likely to win, nothing else. Neither who's more balanced or who has more offensive flair is relevant to the discussion, even if it fuels your bias.

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10-26-2012, 12:06 PM
  #102
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Well, I voted Karlsson-Doughty-Pietrangelo in terms of ability to best help his team win.

Doughty and Karlsson are close as both are extremely influential as defencemen in terms of how their team plays and wins hockey games.

Pietrangelo is a fine, well-rounded defenceman, but I just don't think he has that same impact. He's an excellent cog in a well-oiled machine, but not much more than that at this point.

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10-26-2012, 01:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
1) Doughty

2) Pietrangelo

3) Karlsson
I agree with this, but I am biased. I think Doughty when he is at the top of his game, which doesn't happen often enough (although Sutter seemed to find the right button to push on Doughty), Doughty is more physical than the other two guys and provides just as much offensive talent.

Karlsson did win the Norris Trophy, but only because he scored the most points by a defenseman last season. People will say that they will take the Norris Trophy winner, well I'll take a Stanley Cup winner.

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10-26-2012, 02:04 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I agree with this, but I am biased. I think Doughty when he is at the top of his game, which doesn't happen often enough (although Sutter seemed to find the right button to push on Doughty), Doughty is more physical than the other two guys and provides just as much offensive talent.

Karlsson did win the Norris Trophy, but only because he scored the most points by a defenseman last season. People will say that they will take the Norris Trophy winner, well I'll take a Stanley Cup winner.
The Stanley Cup isn't an argument for how good a player is, it shows how good the entire team is.

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10-26-2012, 02:17 PM
  #105
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PDK

Pietro's a beast. Best defenceman last year, imo
Not sold on Karlsson yet... good for him and his stats last year, but we'll see how long he holds onto those types of numbers.

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10-26-2012, 02:37 PM
  #106
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Only one of those three has the following resume:
1.)WJC gold medal and named best defensman of that tournament
2.)Olympic gold medal in his second year in the NHL at the age of 20 as the youngest defensman ever that made team Canada Olympic squad and played some of the toughest minutes in that tournament. He also has a Norris trophy nomination in the very same sophomore season.
3.)Stanley Cup winner, again playing the toughest minutes while also being the best defensman in the playoffs (best scoring AND best +-).
4.)Impressive playoff resume - playoff statistic: 32GP 9G 18A 27Pts +6
5.)Physical game neither of the competition in this poll has.
6.)The best game changing abilities shown at the highest pressure stages for any hockey player:.

Doughty

Karlsson/Pietrangelo

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Old
10-26-2012, 02:51 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The Stanley Cup isn't an argument for how good a player is, it shows how good the entire team is.

Id say its 50/50.

You cant have a great team without great players. Doughty certainly contributed to their Cup.

IMO, its the biggest cop-out reply, because it goes both ways. We're talking about Drew Doughty, not a journeyman scrapper.

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10-26-2012, 03:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ManyIdeas View Post
All 3 are phenomenal, so fans of their respective teams should just keep arguing trying to tell others that the dman on their team is better.

But pie is better than the rest ;p
No he isnt ,he isnt in the norris talk because out of the group great two way defenders,that include Chara, Weber,Doughty he isnt that much better either defensively or offensively to gain ground on them .Now we could be adding another in OEL ,thats a pretty crowded group to battle against to win based on two way merit .

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10-26-2012, 03:58 PM
  #109
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2008 draft was such a beast

I could easily see these 3 constantly battling the rankings for the rest of their careers. For now, I say KPD... but it will likely change many times over the years.

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10-26-2012, 04:07 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
2008 draft was such a beast

I could easily see these 3 constantly battling the rankings for the rest of their careers. For now, I say KPD... but it will likely change many times over the years.
Speaking of 2008, it'll be interesting to see if Zach Bogosian, Luke Schenn, Jake Gardiner, Michael Del Zotto, John Carlson, Travis Hamonic, Justin Schultz and Tyler Myers end up butting their way into the discussion as well.

Really is a crazy draft for d-men.

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10-26-2012, 04:52 PM
  #111
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Doughty
Karlsson
Pietrangelo

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10-26-2012, 04:56 PM
  #112
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Karlsson - Doughty - Pietrangelo

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10-26-2012, 05:41 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Speaking of 2008, it'll be interesting to see if Zach Bogosian, Luke Schenn, Jake Gardiner, Michael Del Zotto, John Carlson, Travis Hamonic, Justin Schultz and Tyler Myers end up butting their way into the discussion as well.

Really is a crazy draft for d-men.
The tiers have already changed so much. It used to be Doughty vs. Bogo/Schenn, then Doughty vs. Myers/Bogo, then Doughty/Myers/Karlsson/Pietro, now Karlsson/Doughty/Pietro all have really strong arguments in their favor, with Myers needing - and totally capable of - a monster year to get back in.

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10-26-2012, 05:51 PM
  #114
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Pietro
Doughty
EK

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Old
10-26-2012, 06:09 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by uncleben85 View Post
PDK

Pietro's a beast. Best defenceman last year, imo
Not sold on Karlsson yet... good for him and his stats last year, but we'll see how long he holds onto those types of numbers.
Don't even judge him on his numbers...judge him on his effect. You'll have to watch the Sens consistently. Beware.

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10-26-2012, 06:11 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Well, I voted Karlsson-Doughty-Pietrangelo in terms of ability to best help his team win.

Doughty and Karlsson are close as both are extremely influential as defencemen in terms of how their team plays and wins hockey games.

Pietrangelo is a fine, well-rounded defenceman, but I just don't think he has that same impact. He's an excellent cog in a well-oiled machine, but not much more than that at this point.
If the goal was to make it look as easy as possible, I'd give it to Pietro. Silky smooth and controlled. Always, it seems.

But Doughty and Karlsson bring a dimension that changes the way their team plays offense. Not only do they make other players more dangerous but they themselves can do it by themselves on any given touch of the puck. And I'm sorry people, but a player that keeps his team moving forward and away from the defensive zone is more valuable than a player that thrives in the defensive zone. No one on the team can mess up if the puck is out of the zone.

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10-26-2012, 06:12 PM
  #117
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I don't know about best defenseman, but in terms of overall impact on a team, Karlsson-Doughty-Pietrangelo.

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10-26-2012, 06:32 PM
  #118
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Over what they have accomplished in their young careers, I would say that Doughty has performed at the highest level. Sure, Karlsson put up phenomenal numbers and has a Norris Trophy under his belt, but Doughty's performance during the playoffs (not just this year but in previous years as well) and his coming out party in the 2010 Olympics really stands out above Pietrangelo and Karlsson. A Stanley Cup and an Olympic Gold Medal at 22? That's unheard of. And going in to the Olympics Doughty was considered the 7th defenseman on the roster. He quickly became the #2 dman on the team (behind Keith or Weber, take your pick).

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10-26-2012, 07:09 PM
  #119
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In all seriousness, probably 65-70 points, while appearing much better defensively. There's no way anyone would say he's bad defensively.

Petro is helped a great deal by the system he plays in. Gets much more defensive help from his forwards.
That's pretty generous.

Against the EC Karlsson was: 63gp, 16g, 49a, 65p, +19 (or 1.03 ppg)
Against the WC Karlsson was: 18gp, 3g, 10a, 13p, -3 or ( or .72 ppg)

If you were to reverse those numbers (i.e. reverse the Conference) he'd have about 64 points with fewer goals and a much worse +/-. But lets ignore the +/- for now because I do agree that Karlsson would perform much better defensively in Hitchcock's system.

I would argue, however, that Karlsson would have trouble even cracking 60 points because of the nature of the play in the conference, size (not quality, but size) of the key players and the fact that many coaches in the WC wouldn't give him anywhere near the offensive license that he's had in Ottawa.

Regardless of stats I don't think anyone is going to argue that Karlsson would put up the same number of points in St. Louis, LA, or Nashville and I also don't think that anyone is going to argue that his defense is on par with Doughty, Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo etc. So now you have a defenseman who is 'at best' average defensively putting up great, but not insane, numbers and not killing penalites. Would he even be a Norris finalist in the Western Conference? And yes, I do think if Drew Doughty or Alex Pietrangelo, or Keith Yandle or Duncan Keith played in Ottawa they would have much better numbers… maybe not 78 points but who cares because they're all superior defensively to Erik Karlsson.

I'm not saying that this should have played into Norris voting because it's all hypothetical but Karlsson fans shouldn't be upset that most, even casual fans on this board (and THN) can factor these types of considerations into their subjective opinion without looking at stats etc.

But in the end I guess it all comes down to if you think Karlsson is terrible, below average or average defensively and what type of player you appreciate for that position. I personally think Karlsson is awful, not average, but awful defensively and believe that when evaluating elite defensmen AT LEAST 50% of your evaluation should relate to their defensive abilities.

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10-26-2012, 07:18 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
That's pretty generous.

Against the EC Karlsson was: 63gp, 16g, 49a, 65p, +19 (or 1.03 ppg)
Against the WC Karlsson was: 18gp, 3g, 10a, 13p, -3 or ( or .72 ppg)

If you were to reverse those numbers (i.e. reverse the Conference) he'd have about 64 points with fewer goals and a much worse +/-. But lets ignore the +/- for now because I do agree that Karlsson would perform much better defensively in Hitchcock's system.

I would argue, however, that Karlsson would have trouble even cracking 60 points because of the nature of the play in the conference, size (not quality, but size) of the key players and the fact that many coaches in the WC wouldn't give him anywhere near the offensive license that he's had in Ottawa.

Regardless of stats I don't think anyone is going to argue that Karlsson would put up the same number of points in St. Louis, LA, or Nashville and I also don't think that anyone is going to argue that his defense is on par with Doughty, Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo etc. So now you have a defenseman who is 'at best' average defensively putting up great, but not insane, numbers and not killing penalites. Would he even be a Norris finalist in the Western Conference? And yes, I do think if Drew Doughty or Alex Pietrangelo, or Keith Yandle or Duncan Keith played in Ottawa they would have much better numbers… maybe not 78 points but who cares because they're all superior defensively to Erik Karlsson.

I'm not saying that this should have played into Norris voting because it's all hypothetical but Karlsson fans shouldn't be upset that most, even casual fans on this board (and THN) can factor these types of considerations into their subjective opinion without looking at stats etc.

But in the end I guess it all comes down to if you think Karlsson is terrible, below average or average defensively and what type of player you appreciate for that position. I personally think Karlsson is awful, not average, but awful defensively and believe that when evaluating elite defensmen AT LEAST 50% of your evaluation should relate to their defensive abilities.
Could this finally be when Ottawa fans see the light?..

..no.

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10-26-2012, 07:27 PM
  #121
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Could this finally be when Ottawa fans see the light?..

..no.
I wouldn't expect them to. They have the top offensive defensman in the league who just won Norris trophy at the age of 22 and Cowen who I believe will be one of the top defensive defensemen in the league in a few years and some great young forward talent coming through the pipeline. There is a lot to be excited about.

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10-26-2012, 07:54 PM
  #122
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Visnovsky had 68 points in the West, Keith 69, Lidstrom 80...obviously they're playing on offensively talented teams but I have a hard time thinking Karlsson's stats would diminish by 20 points.

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10-26-2012, 08:49 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
That's pretty generous.

Against the EC Karlsson was: 63gp, 16g, 49a, 65p, +19 (or 1.03 ppg)
Against the WC Karlsson was: 18gp, 3g, 10a, 13p, -3 or ( or .72 ppg)

If you were to reverse those numbers (i.e. reverse the Conference) he'd have about 64 points with fewer goals and a much worse +/-. But lets ignore the +/- for now because I do agree that Karlsson would perform much better defensively in Hitchcock's system.

I would argue, however, that Karlsson would have trouble even cracking 60 points because of the nature of the play in the conference, size (not quality, but size) of the key players and the fact that many coaches in the WC wouldn't give him anywhere near the offensive license that he's had in Ottawa.

Regardless of stats I don't think anyone is going to argue that Karlsson would put up the same number of points in St. Louis, LA, or Nashville and I also don't think that anyone is going to argue that his defense is on par with Doughty, Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo etc. So now you have a defenseman who is 'at best' average defensively putting up great, but not insane, numbers and not killing penalites. Would he even be a Norris finalist in the Western Conference? And yes, I do think if Drew Doughty or Alex Pietrangelo, or Keith Yandle or Duncan Keith played in Ottawa they would have much better numbers… maybe not 78 points but who cares because they're all superior defensively to Erik Karlsson.

I'm not saying that this should have played into Norris voting because it's all hypothetical but Karlsson fans shouldn't be upset that most, even casual fans on this board (and THN) can factor these types of considerations into their subjective opinion without looking at stats etc.

But in the end I guess it all comes down to if you think Karlsson is terrible, below average or average defensively and what type of player you appreciate for that position. I personally think Karlsson is awful, not average, but awful defensively and believe that when evaluating elite defensmen AT LEAST 50% of your evaluation should relate to their defensive abilities.
Pietrangelo had a PPG of 0.56 vs. ECF and 0.65 vs. the WCF.

Doughty's PPG was the same for both conferences, at 0.47.

Employing the same logic you used, I don't see either guy making out like a bandit against teams in the ECF. Where's the consistency in this massive discrepancy that you are alluding to?

Looking at the stats, it just drives home further the offensive advantage that Karlsson brings to bear, and is a good additional consideration to keep in mind when looking at the stats to go beyond subjective opinion.

Interestingly, in the previous season, Karlsson PPG vs. the WCF was 0.63 and it was 0.59 against the ECF.

But that's what's fun about cherry picking stats.


Last edited by NyQuil: 10-26-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old
10-26-2012, 10:05 PM
  #124
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Pie is a prototypical high-end defensive talent.

Doughty is slightly better than him because of that “it” factor that he brings in big games.

Karlsson is a generational talent and quite unique (unorthodox, but mostly effective). He’s also the most talked about guy in HFBOARDS! That should count for something, right?

Karlsson > Doughty > Pietrangelo.

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10-27-2012, 01:47 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Pietrangelo had a PPG of 0.56 vs. ECF and 0.65 vs. the WCF.

Doughty's PPG was the same for both conferences, at 0.47.

Employing the same logic you used, I don't see either guy making out like a bandit against teams in the ECF. Where's the consistency in this massive discrepancy that you are alluding to?

Looking at the stats, it just drives home further the offensive advantage that Karlsson brings to bear, and is a good additional consideration to keep in mind when looking at the stats to go beyond subjective opinion.

Interestingly, in the previous season, Karlsson PPG vs. the WCF was 0.63 and it was 0.59 against the ECF.

But that's what's fun about cherry picking stats.
Word. Should the art ross and hart winners from the east be scrutinized because they play there?

I think there's a difference in play style between the two conferences, no doubt about it. But there's nothing to stop you from scoring at a high rate in the west, thats just absurd. Ask Thornton or the Sedins. Are people suggesting they were enormously better than the stars in the east they beat out those years, just because they played for western teams?

In my opinion, the west is more defence oriented because because in actuality there are less star/impact type players who play there. A lot of those teams have to adopt the "clog the neutral zone/dump and chase" style because that can still win you a lot of games if you dont have that star power, and the system is executed properly.

When you have a weapon to use like a Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Karlsson, Ovechkin, Kovalchuck ect., you do whatever you can to put it to good use. Your wasting a lot of talent that can win you games if not.

So my point is that if Karlsson made his way to the west, Im sure he would do just fine because whatever team got him would likely try to get every ounce of his talent out of him.

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