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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Adrian Dater-Gary Bettman deserves ALL of the blame

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Old
10-26-2012, 02:20 PM
  #126
Pepper
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Without the talent that the players bring to the table, there would be no league.
Wrong. There will ALWAYS be the NHL, regardless of current players.

Players are NOT the product, it's the NHL TEAM of which players are part of.

Players change, teams remain.

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10-26-2012, 02:21 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by redman View Post
the record TV deal came from Ed Snider, not Bettman!
Uhh - nope.

Snider is Chairman of Comcast Spectacor.

Comcast Spectacor != Comcast.

It is a relatively small subsidiary (Philly Sports teams, the Wells Fargo Center, and the Global Spectrum arena management co) of Comcast, acquired when Comcast bought Snider's Spectacor in 1996. It is an even smaller subsidiary after the NBCU acquisition. Snider has nothing to do with Comcast's broadcast channels - the CSN RSNs aren't even under Spectacor/Snider anymore.

Bettman inked the NBC deal (and renewals) long before NBC was acquired by Comcast. Snider had little to do with the OLN/Versus deals. It was these deals - including their right-to-match provisions - that led to the current deal.

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10-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #128
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10-26-2012, 02:29 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Yet strangely the players ended up making considerably more money under the imposed, unfair, agreement than they would have under the agreement they proposed...
it doesn't mean they have to give up everything they negotiated for.

The Owners screwed themselves over on the last deal, now they are punishing the players for it.

Regardless of who made out better ot worse. The NHL is looking for a correction of their own ineptness and are taking everything from the players.

The NHL needs to look into the mirror as to WHY the last CBA didn't work.

However, the reflection is too ugly, so they angle the mirror so the don't see themselves, but something else they believe (incorrectly) can cure their ills.

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10-26-2012, 02:31 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
The Owners screwed themselves over on the last deal, now they are punishing the players for it.
So NHL has no right to correct the situation?

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10-26-2012, 02:34 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
it doesn't mean they have to give up everything they negotiated for.

The Owners screwed themselves over on the last deal, now they are punishing the players for it.

Regardless of who made out better ot worse. The NHL is looking for a correction of their own ineptness and are taking everything from the players.

The NHL needs to look into the mirror as to WHY the last CBA didn't work.

However, the reflection is too ugly, so they angle the mirror so the don't see themselves, but something else they believe (incorrectly) can cure their ills.
I thought Fehr said the players already got screwed in the last deal! How dare you doubting the words of our mighty god Don Fehr!

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10-26-2012, 02:35 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
it doesn't mean they have to give up everything they negotiated for.

The Owners screwed themselves over on the last deal, now they are punishing the players for it.

Regardless of who made out better ot worse. The NHL is looking for a correction of their own ineptness and are taking everything from the players.

The NHL needs to look into the mirror as to WHY the last CBA didn't work.

However, the reflection is too ugly, so they angle the mirror so the don't see themselves, but something else they believe (incorrectly) can cure their ills.
So, in essence, what you are saying is the league should say "Hey, we screwed up in these areas, so let's do nothing about it!" As opposed to "Hey, let's look at how we can fix these areas that satisfies all 30 owners to some degree!" ?

Your metaphor shows disdain for the incompetence on only one of the two very incompetent sides.

Fear not! I have full confidence that both sides will bungle about like crazy and both will come out of this debacle making money again.

But just too add I am more comfortable tilting it towards the owners because, after all, if the owners are happy the players are far more likely to be reaping benefits than if the league is tilting on the brink of financial destruction as was previously demonstrated over the last 7 years, opposed to the 10 years prior.

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10-26-2012, 02:36 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
The league will be there.

There's 3.3 billion reasons annually that tells me the owners won't close up shop before offering some concessions.

Silly argument.
Of course the NHL will continue to be here, that wasn't the argument at all. Without the NHL the players have no place to make the kind of money that the do in the NHL.

If this drags on I think most players will come back to play on the NHL's terms. The owners may have "won" last time, but the players got the far better deal. This isn't about concessions by the owners to get something in return, it's about economic reality.

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10-26-2012, 02:43 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So NHL has no right to correct the situation?
...of course they do Pepper, however, in failing to address the fundamental issue's with long-term solutions their simply putting bandages on the problems, pretty much guaranteeing a return to 04 & 2012 in 2017 or 18, 2024 & so on. Refuse to discuss such matters with the NHLPA. In many respects Im actually sympathetic to the owners perspective, as its "questionable" just how much influence any labour union should be given with respect to business operations, the rights of self determination etc. Tactically, I believe the NHL has erred, failed miserably in its entire approach, on the ice, at the boardroom table. Neither Bettman nor Fehr are visionaries, and as such, Im expecting a long stoppage, positions entrenched, eventually being ordered back to the table by the NLRB with arbitration after pressures are exerted from Washington to Ottawa.

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10-26-2012, 02:47 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
it doesn't mean they have to give up everything they negotiated for.

The Owners screwed themselves over on the last deal, now they are punishing the players for it.

Regardless of who made out better ot worse. The NHL is looking for a correction of their own ineptness and are taking everything from the players.

The NHL needs to look into the mirror as to WHY the last CBA didn't work.

However, the reflection is too ugly, so they angle the mirror so the don't see themselves, but something else they believe (incorrectly) can cure their ills.
And everyone knows, in life once you make a mistake, you're not allowed to correct it. Ever. You must pay for it the rest of your life.

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Old
10-26-2012, 02:57 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Are commissioners in any sport, ever popular?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Youre never going to please everyone, but id say Roger Goodell has at least a fair approval rating, but im not sure.
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
Goodell is not liked at all. He is slowly turning the league into a video game.
Yeah i'd say Goodell is pretty well disliked all around. He came in with a mission to fix something that was never broken, he brought a tough guy attitude and butted heads with a lot of guys in the league. Maybe he eases up over the course of his tenure and can win some people over.

His predecessor Paul Tagliabue was probably the most popular commissioner during his time, so it's hard to live up to that.

I think David Stern had some measure of popularity that has slowly deteriorated over the years, but he's still going to go out ahead of Bettman and Goodell.

Bud Selig is hard to tell, he's one of those guys who doesn't seem very popular and certainly wasn't during the early 90's, probably still turns people off. But he's a guy who can win you over during the course of a conversation.

Bettman, has the slimy look, and obviously loses a TON of favor due to the southern movement and the lockouts. Even if it's not 100% on him, he still takes the blame. It looked like he was making headway though as the league was looking more and more healthy up to this past summer... now i'd say he's firmly planted in last place. Though his popularity will vary greatly by city, places like here in Nashville, Phoenix and maybe Pittsburgh? where he's helped the team stay in town, and probably even Winnipeg now. Also other smaller markets that he appears to fight for and work to get favorable CBA terms for, those fans probably hold back a little bit of hate compared to the large market and traditional teams.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:39 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
If I'm on the Players side of the ledger, I want to address the reduced salary issue. I want to talk through the make whole process because while I may not like everything else they have offered, in my mind, they are talking points that can be ironed out which means I believe there's room on my side to move on those issues.

As it is, the NHL has told them, unless all of those talking points are accepted as offered, there's no sense in discussing the make whole provision.

The NHLPA has been focusing on what SHOULD be the main issue that is affecting the NHL.

The NHL has held that discussion hostage by telling the NHLPA we are not even going to discuss Make Whole without complete acceptance of the other issues.

Guess what happened the last time the NHLPA agreed to that tactic? A Salary Cap was implemented AND the players gave up 24%.

Why should that tactic be any different now when the Owners have folloed their own playbook to a T.

I can see it now.

Players agree to all provisions outside of Make Whole, Owners continue the strong arm tactics and the players get bent.

What are the owners concerned with that they do not want to negotiate without pre-conditions?
They're concerned the salary cap isn't enough to provide what it is they're looking to achieve?

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:46 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post

The Owners screwed themselves over on the last deal, now they are punishing the players for it.

Regardless of who made out better ot worse. The NHL is looking for a correction of their own ineptness and are taking everything from the players.
Please, punish me as you pay me $2.3m!

(serious, pls punish me for $2.3m. That figure can do down ya know)

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:58 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Uhh - nope.

Snider is Chairman of Comcast Spectacor.

Comcast Spectacor != Comcast.

It is a relatively small subsidiary (Philly Sports teams, the Wells Fargo Center, and the Global Spectrum arena management co) of Comcast, acquired when Comcast bought Snider's Spectacor in 1996. It is an even smaller subsidiary after the NBCU acquisition. Snider has nothing to do with Comcast's broadcast channels - the CSN RSNs aren't even under Spectacor/Snider anymore.

Bettman inked the NBC deal (and renewals) long before NBC was acquired by Comcast. Snider had little to do with the OLN/Versus deals. It was these deals - including their right-to-match provisions - that led to the current deal.
Snider and Comcast had everything to do with Versus picking up the NHL, and further the monster deal with NBCsports.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 10-26-2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: not neccessary
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10-26-2012, 03:59 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
Then why don't they make a proposal with 50/50? All I've seen is 50/50 in 5 years.

And the owner say that because they have the leverage. I'm digging out the Bill Guerin quote again:

"We could have waited two years and they would have waited us out -- I would have given an extra 2 percent back to play that year," Guerin said. "When you are in the heat of battle, and you are fired up, you don't think what they are doing is right. But it's not about what is right or wrong -- it's their league. It's theirs. I feel, personally, I didn't like guys giving up a year of their career, for what? A few less bucks? Guys are making more money now than they ever have."

The bolded says all you need to know.
Perhaps in your opinion.

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10-26-2012, 04:03 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
And everyone knows, in life once you make a mistake, you're not allowed to correct it. Ever. You must pay for it the rest of your life.
well let's be honest, if they were really looking to "correct" their mistakes, Phoenix would not still have a team.

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10-26-2012, 04:18 PM
  #142
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Without these supposed mistakes Bettman made in the last CBA, would he be in his present position of absolutely destroying the players in this negotiation? Unforeseen mistakes or a calculated outcome? My guess is calculated outcome.

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10-26-2012, 04:24 PM
  #143
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Without these supposed mistakes Bettman made in the last CBA, would he be in his present position of absolutely destroying the players in this negotiation? Unforeseen mistakes or a calculated outcome? My guess is calculated outcome.
You honestly think Bettman is that smart that he could convince 30 completely different owners (many of which are different now) to go along with a plan that would take 10 years to accomplish? (Edit) and would also be premised on record growth?

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10-26-2012, 04:41 PM
  #144
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reading through a variety of these posts, it is clear that most on here have never bought a car. This is a negotiation, it isn't about fairness. It's about two sides getting the best deal they can for their represented audiences. If the NHL would have gotten the 43%, then so be it. If they go 50/50, so be it. Bettman is by far the best commissioner this league has ever had. He has grown revenues by exponential lengths & taken it to places it never has been before. Yes, mistakes have been made, but this guy has been nothing but a blessing to the league....
As it turns out, that pretty much means **** all. Bettman is great at spinning half-truths. Only a handful of teams truly benefit.

I figured it was obvious enough that the job Bettman is doing is not even remotely adequate or satisfactory. The league is in terrible shape. We are in the middle of a lockout after all.

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10-26-2012, 05:28 PM
  #145
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As it turns out, that pretty much means **** all. Bettman is great at spinning half-truths. Only a handful of teams truly benefit.

I figured it was obvious enough that the job Bettman is doing is not even remotely adequate or satisfactory. The league is in terrible shape. We are in the middle of a lockout after all.
Both are telling half-truths and we (as fans) must remember that. They both are vying to get you on their side and make the other one look like the bad guy. Neither side is willing to let the other one actually "win" this CBA.

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10-26-2012, 07:26 PM
  #146
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Without the talent that the players bring to the table, there would be no league.
If this is true why are you a Rangers fan?

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10-26-2012, 08:00 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by gormo View Post
As it turns out, that pretty much means **** all. Bettman is great at spinning half-truths. Only a handful of teams truly benefit.

I figured it was obvious enough that the job Bettman is doing is not even remotely adequate or satisfactory. The league is in terrible shape. We are in the middle of a lockout after all.
Compared to what? Compared to last lockout and the 94 lockout the NHL is in much better shape.

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10-26-2012, 08:03 PM
  #148
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The Bettman works for the owners nonsense has reached its end.
Bettman is the chief economic adviser. He is suppose to be in the best interest of the league.
The owners are convinced not playing hockey for what amounts to pennies is the right path The way I see it owners "save" 500 million(my guess) over 10 years plus whatever expansion and relocation fees generated Mr Bettman stands to make a HUGE fortune.
Gary gets paid no matter what. But stands to make millions without making a save or scoring a goal.

Just my humble.

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10-26-2012, 08:05 PM
  #149
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The Bettman works for the owners nonsense has reached its end.
Bettman is the chief economic adviser. He is suppose to be in the best interest of the league.
The owners are convinced not playing hockey for what amounts to pennies is the right path The way I see it owners "save" 500 million(my guess) over 10 years plus whatever expansion and relocation fees generated Mr Bettman stands to make a HUGE fortune.
Gary gets paid no matter what. But stands to make millions without making a save or scoring a goal.

Just my humble.
I wish I could fine my boss whenever he talked lol

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10-26-2012, 08:09 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by RangerBlues View Post
The Bettman works for the owners nonsense has reached its end.
Bettman is the chief economic adviser. He is suppose to be in the best interest of the league.
The owners are convinced not playing hockey for what amounts to pennies is the right path The way I see it owners "save" 500 million(my guess) over 10 years plus whatever expansion and relocation fees generated Mr Bettman stands to make a HUGE fortune.
Gary gets paid no matter what. But stands to make millions without making a save or scoring a goal.

Just my humble.
??? Even with no growth the NHL owners would save $2+ billion over ten years on a 50/50 deal...

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