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Adrian Dater-Gary Bettman deserves ALL of the blame

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Old
10-26-2012, 08:16 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
??? Even with no growth the NHL owners would save $2+ billion over ten years on a 50/50 deal...
Ok say 2 billion. Gary gets 5%. Thats more than any individual owner will get out of the deal.

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10-26-2012, 08:23 PM
  #152
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This is why I don't read the Denver Post

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10-26-2012, 08:29 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by redman View Post
I guess I'd have the same opinion if he handed my team Crosby and a cup like he did with Pittsburg.
yep, that's exactly what happened. How did you detect that....

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10-26-2012, 08:38 PM
  #154
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yep, that's exactly what happened. How did you detect that....
I wonder if Gary was put in charge of the Ewing lottery

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10-26-2012, 09:08 PM
  #155
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Dater makes Eklund look like Bob MacKenzie, nuff said.

There's more inside knowledge of the Avs/hockey from members over on the Avs board than this jokester.

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10-26-2012, 09:15 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
You honestly think Bettman is that smart that he could convince 30 completely different owners (many of which are different now) to go along with a plan that would take 10 years to accomplish? (Edit) and would also be premised on record growth?
Bettman being that smart seems more likely to me than him being dumb enough to not see what happened coming. He's getting 8 million a year for a reason.

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10-26-2012, 09:24 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by BigT2002 View Post
Both are telling half-truths and we (as fans) must remember that. They both are vying to get you on their side and make the other one look like the bad guy. Neither side is willing to let the other one actually "win" this CBA.
Im not on either side. I cant stand Bettman but I also think Fehr's hiring is one of the worst things to ever happen to the sport.

These two seem more then stubborn enough to allow pride to do serious damage to the game. Their tactics might lead to mutual destruction.


Last edited by Gormo: 10-26-2012 at 09:36 PM.
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10-26-2012, 09:33 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Compared to what? Compared to last lockout and the 94 lockout the NHL is in much better shape.
The league is in great shape to other times when there was a stoppage? WOW

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10-26-2012, 09:37 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by gormo View Post
Im not on either side. I cant stand Bettman but I also think Fehr's hiring is one of the worst things to ever happen to the sport.

These two seem more then stubborn enough to allow pride to do serious damage to the game. Their tactics might lead to mutual destruction.
You win a tasty beer, sir. Hopefully someone who has no idea of what you just said buys you a pint in your future.

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10-26-2012, 09:58 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
That also means that the players do not have to agree to whatever the owners present.

That agreement is over. If the owners are being truthful about wanting a FAIR deal, then they wull have to negotiate for it.

Telling someone, take it or leave it is not a fair negotiation when both sides bring something equally valuable to the table.

Unless you think you can do what the NHLPA does, as well for less?

Didn't think so.
I remember right before the lockout Bettman said because the NHL and owners agreed to the terms of the previous CBA, (one which he thought was a win for them at the time) he said they need a new one because there are things he didn't end up liking about it. So I agree with you that it seems like Bettman wants to get everything for the owners and make sure the players don't get anything out of it.

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10-26-2012, 10:00 PM
  #161
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Bettman is a terrible. 2nd lockout in less then 10 years. Seriously?

Complete and utter incompetence.

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10-26-2012, 10:22 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
So my question to the pro owner crowd is, What IS the NHL offering in any of their proposals in terms of any sort of give-back to induce them to agreeing to a deal?


NHLPA - What are you offering us to get us to agree to that?
Doesn't shortening ELCs mean that young players can sign a new, richer contract?

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Originally Posted by Neil Patrick Harris View Post
This this this. They were planning southern expansion since the Ziegler years. They even had the ridiculously high expansion fees already planned out.
Anaheim and Florida debuted in Bettman's first season, as did the newly relocated Dallas Stars. The NHL was at 26 teams. Bettman approved moves for Winnipeg(Phoenix), Quebec(Colorado), and Hartford(Carolina), approved four expansion teams (Nashvile, Minnesota, Atlanta, Columbus), and approved the move of Atlanta(Winnipeg).

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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Example #1 - Wade Redden has made 13 million playing in the minors. He's not good enough to be an everyday NHL'er, yet he plays in the minors and is still paid his NHL Salary. How does that negatively affect players?
Redden's salary didn't count on the cap, but it did count against the Players' Share. The same is true of all one-ways not in the NHL.

[quote]


Quote:
Teams do not have the ability to bury anyone in another league. They can send him to the minors via the waiver route, or they can elect to go over-seas thus forefitting his salary which is 100% an election made by the player.
But that's what NYR did with Redden, or CHI with Huet.

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Huet case in point was not sent overseas so Chicago didn't have to pay him. That was the choice HE MADE. The Hawks benefitted from that in that they didn't have to pay him. Distinction is the election of the player to go overseas.
The reason they didn't have to pay him is because they made an agreement with his Swiss club that they would pay his contract. He was still under contract and could have been called up were he needed.

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What can the owners give back?

Lets start by leaving the ELC's alone. Leave them at stay 3 years, but reduce the amount of bonus money they can make. Continue to not count it against the Cap.
What? That's even LESS player friendly. It's basically "Ok, ELCs can be three years, but they will only be worth two years' pay."

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Allow teams the ability to exceed the cap with a dollar for dollar penalty on each dollar spent above the cap with all additional revenue put into the Revenue sharing pool. Ensure that tehre is significant oversight to make sure that that money is put back into the ON ICE product.
Good in theory. In practice you get the New York Yankees.

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Get rid of the cap floor. Teams have been FORCED to keep up with the jonses by having a floor of 16 million below the cap. Half the team that have lost money would be cut in half if they weren't forced to keep up. Not only that, but that would also act as a drag overall % of money the NHLPA got.
The floor needs to be lowered, not eliminated. Instead of $16m, make the difference something like "40% of the cap, to the nearest million". That puts the salary floor on a $59.9m cap at $35.9m.

Remember, if the PA gets 50%, and all HRR is exactly $3.3b, that's an average of $55m per team; the floor for this season was originally set at $54.2m. The cap should be closer to the 50-60 range than the cranked-up 70m it ts at/was going to be at.

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10-26-2012, 10:24 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
Bettman is a terrible. 2nd lockout in less then 10 years. Seriously?

Complete and utter incompetence.
He's not incompetent, but he is reviled by fans and players alike, so I think his time is done.

Obviously the owners won't get rid of him now, but once the next CBA is nailed down, and the dust settles, they'll probably give him a generous package, and he'll move on.

Fehr will be gone too, so both sides can negotiate without the baggage in six years.

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10-26-2012, 10:26 PM
  #164
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Bettman deserves more blame than any other single actor (be it an owner, a player or a NHLPA official) but deserving all of the blame is a stretch.

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10-26-2012, 10:30 PM
  #165
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Three CBAs, three extended lockouts.

I think Bettman's record speaks for itself.

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10-26-2012, 10:30 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
you seem to think everyone is equals in this. However you have no problem stating how we cant do the NHLPA's job so they deserve this.

Well, NHLPA cant do what the owners do, so they deserve what they want. See how easy that is.

The NHL can run their business in any fashion they want as long as it doesnt break the law just like a parent can raise their kids any way they want.

The NHLPA is just like children, wanting everything, paying for nothing and stamping their feet any time they dont get what they want.
If there was a legitimate economically competitive league located almost anywhere in the world where free market conditions would allow teams to bid on players dependent on their means, we wouldn't be having these discussions. However, the way the NHL seems to want to continue to play Russian roulette with itself, they may well end up creating an economically competitve playing structure. Not sure they've planned on that, but could happen.

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10-26-2012, 10:35 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The floor needs to be lowered, not eliminated. Instead of $16m, make the difference something like "40% of the cap, to the nearest million". That puts the salary floor on a $59.9m cap at $35.9m.
UPPER CAP = 60%
MEDIAN = 50%
SALARY FLOOR = 40%

That way if HRR is $3.3 billion, the upper cap is $66 million, the median is $55 million, and the salary floor is $44 million.

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:33 AM
  #168
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...of course they do Pepper, however, in failing to address the fundamental issue's with long-term solutions their simply putting bandages on the problems, pretty much guaranteeing a return to 04 & 2012 in 2017 or 18, 2024 & so on. Refuse to discuss such matters with the NHLPA. In many respects Im actually sympathetic to the owners perspective, as its "questionable" just how much influence any labour union should be given with respect to business operations, the rights of self determination etc. Tactically, I believe the NHL has erred, failed miserably in its entire approach, on the ice, at the boardroom table. Neither Bettman nor Fehr are visionaries, and as such, Im expecting a long stoppage, positions entrenched, eventually being ordered back to the table by the NLRB with arbitration after pressures are exerted from Washington to Ottawa.
This is the problem. No one can tell the NHL they aren't allowed to lock out players to fix their perceived issues but they are foolish and being hard-headed to do it so often and needing rollbacks every 7 years. This is 3 lockouts in 18 years. What league can build a good rep off of this? Yes Bettman didn't create or dream up expansion but it seems the insistence on "growing the game" has come at the expense of At that rate, we'll be back doing the same circus in 6 or 7 years when players are getting "too much" of the pie and/or more small markets are being handcuffed and crying poor. If that's the case again, there are clearly too many suffering franchises. No league can be that healthy when 1/3 of its 30 teams are one or two bad years away from being sold, nearly bankrupt or at the very least putting up major losses.

And Bettman gets paid to do the owners bidding but maybe it's time there was a commissioner more worried about preventing lockouts than one whose job it seems is to win them. The NHL is not only the major league with the least interest of the "Big Four" in the US, it's the one with the most labour strife, the shakiest stability and the smallest revenues. Yes they have grown over the years but a lot of that is Canadian-driven and the Sunbelt effort to grow the game has barely made any money for the NHL aside from the expansion fees. They'll point to the fanbases and the kids who take up the sport but is that really enough justification for putting the fans through hell every 7-10 years? Not for me. Sunbelt expansion hasn't done nearly as much good for the game as they said it would.

Unfortunately the NHL owners happen to be more bullish on CBAs than other leagues not because of who they are but because these guys have a lot more to lose off failing to get the upper hand than the NFL, NBA or MLB. It's a thin line between breaking even and losing money in the NHL. And the easiest way to get that money and security back for Bettman's BOG is to take it from the players. They make for easy pariahs. But of course with Fehr they prepared themselves for this sort of butting heads. Instead of taking an early deal and agreeing to it with the mindset that the last few worked out so well for them, they've gone all in for a battle. And that gets them what they're involved with now. Mind you, I understand not agreeing to the 50/50 stuff because in their mind, the owners will get greedy and come back in 7 years looking to ensure profits with another rollback, claiming their league is in peril without it. Seems like as natural a cycle as the weather.


Last edited by Hab-a-maniac: 10-27-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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10-27-2012, 12:41 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Three CBAs, three extended lockouts.

I think Bettman's record speaks for itself.
Yet the NHLPA guy keeps losing his job. Funny how that works. Bettman is good at what he does, he's got flaws but wow, he's some bad guy but the good guys lose their jobs? Funny. Not to mention wasn't there scandal after scandal with NHLPA's leaders? Too bad Bettman is focused on his job I guess.

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10-27-2012, 01:05 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Yet the NHLPA guy keeps losing his job. Funny how that works. Bettman is good at what he does, he's got flaws but wow, he's some bad guy but the good guys lose their jobs? Funny. Not to mention wasn't there scandal after scandal with NHLPA's leaders? Too bad Bettman is focused on his job I guess.
If Bettman did such a good job he wouldn't need to fix his poop he made from the last CBA

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10-27-2012, 01:45 AM
  #171
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If Bettman did such a good job he wouldn't need to fix his poop he made from the last CBA
Dunno about you, his plan got players more money, owners more money too. Now he's so good at it he's gonna do it again. Is it right? Maybe not, but if a lawyer defending a murderer and being so good at it the guy goes free, does it make him 'incompetent'? I'm not saying owners are evil, but for those who think that, think of the context, Bettman broke down the NHLPA and was also more professional than any of the any previous leaders. Hmm, seems like people are mad he's too good at what he does. Bettman is a very smart man, denying that is just people being mad. Is he good for the game? that's another discussion, revenues grew under his tenure, owners like him and players hate him. I think he's doing the job just fine.

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10-27-2012, 01:54 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Dunno about you, his plan got players more money, owners more money too. Now he's so good at it he's gonna do it again. Is it right? Maybe not, but if a lawyer defending a murderer and being so good at it the guy goes free, does it make him 'incompetent'? I'm not saying owners are evil, but for those who think that, think of the context, Bettman broke down the NHLPA and was also more professional than any of the any previous leaders. Hmm, seems like people are mad he's too good at what he does. Bettman is a very smart man, denying that is just people being mad. Is he good for the game? that's another discussion, revenues grew under his tenure, owners like him and players hate him. I think he's doing the job just fine.
now that's a spin job... we all know the owners had no intention of what transpired happening... they did not forsee the rise in the canadian dollar (yet they are astute/savvy businessmen ?)

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10-27-2012, 02:02 AM
  #173
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now that's a spin job... we all know the owners had no intention of what transpired happening... they did not forsee the rise in the canadian dollar (yet they are astute/savvy businessmen ?)
Rather, they played it safe given the lockout could have had exceptionally backlash. As it turns out, people came back and the league improved. Seven years is a long time and no one should be expected to be able to predict that far in advance.

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10-27-2012, 02:08 AM
  #174
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now that's a spin job... we all know the owners had no intention of what transpired happening... they did not forsee the rise in the canadian dollar (yet they are astute/savvy businessmen ?)
Maybe not but they cut their expenses regardless.

If it is deemed as unfair to credit the league's growth with a rising canadian dollar then why does NHLPA assume 7% growth considering the CDN$ increase had a big role in that? While I agree with you it's unfair to credit them for such, the NHLPA doesn't seem to mind doing it, figure it's fair game. Either owners need more security and players should listen to them or owners are geniuses and players should listen to them.

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10-27-2012, 02:15 AM
  #175
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I don't know how people can say Bettman is doing a good job. He is the only commissioner ever to cancel an entire season, he got the exact deal he wanted. The cap linked to revenues was his dream. He then spent 6 years lying to us all telling us that all the markets are in amazing shape and the league has never been better, meanwhile it was showing games on the outdoor life network. So he finally gets his big tv deal and lets be honest it's a total joke compared to the other pro sports leagues. The teams can pay one second line center with the tv money they get from NBC while other sports owners can pay a big chunk of their payroll with it. He has a team down in Phoenix that hasn't had an owner for how long? That is costing all his owners money to prop up, he has all these other markets losing money under his dream system, the sport is barely covered in most markets and viewed as a niche joke league, for a lot of reasons he's responsible for.

If he thinks ''thank you fans'' is going to be enough to get us back this time he'd dead wrong. This is simply insulting and going way too far this time around. He and the players are doing some serious damage to the league right now.

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