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Gilmour or Francis?

View Poll Results: Overall who was better
Dougy 48 54.55%
Ronny franchise 40 45.45%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-23-2012, 07:06 PM
  #126
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No, thatís not a hard case to make. He outscored Jagr 82-67 in that time, while being better defensively. It would be nice if we had a full PP/ES breakdown for those years, but if the ratios from the regular season hold true, then Jagr would have outscored Francis approximately 51-42 over those 5 playoffs. Then you start to wonder if, like in the regular season, the difference in PP opportunity wasnít the only thing holding Jagrís numbers back from being considerably higher.
I think some of what was holding Jagr's numbers back was players holding onto the numbers on Jagr's back. Just sayin', he sported a pretty sweet opponent jacket once best of seven series time hit (intensified match-ups/game planning) - even in the early days. It was basically a survival tactic against that combination of size and speed in those days. Lemieux's highlight reels show lots of the same.

But the time frame in question is a little harsh on Jagr, who was still a teenager in '91 (... and '92). The stats counting is a bit harsh, too, since my lingering impressions from the '92 playoffs (for example) is Lemieux and Jagr seemingly going back and forth with game-winning goals, and being the engines of that team. I certainly don't look at those stat lines years after the fact, having seen those playoffs re-broadcast countless times, and say "You know what? Ron Francis out-scored Jagr 27-24 those playoffs, so he was 'better'."

Granted, that's just '92 (so, hardly '91-'94), but you know what I mean.

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Old
10-23-2012, 09:27 PM
  #127
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think some of what was holding Jagr's numbers back was players holding onto the numbers on Jagr's back. Just sayin', he sported a pretty sweet opponent jacket once best of seven series time hit (intensified match-ups/game planning) - even in the early days. It was basically a survival tactic against that combination of size and speed in those days. Lemieux's highlight reels show lots of the same.

But the time frame in question is a little harsh on Jagr, who was still a teenager in '91 (... and '92). The stats counting is a bit harsh, too, since my lingering impressions from the '92 playoffs (for example) is Lemieux and Jagr seemingly going back and forth with game-winning goals, and being the engines of that team. I certainly don't look at those stat lines years after the fact, having seen those playoffs re-broadcast countless times, and say "You know what? Ron Francis out-scored Jagr 27-24 those playoffs, so he was 'better'."

Granted, that's just '92 (so, hardly '91-'94), but you know what I mean.
That's a good point. I think Francis and Jagr were pretty even in the playoffs from '91-95:

'91: Francis was better
'92: Agree with your analysis... Francis outscored slightly, but Jagr had 3 more goals and 2 more GWG, so it's very close as to who was more important (they were also both crucial when Lemieux was injured vs. Rangers, possibly the two most important players)
'93: Francis was better
'94: Jagr was better
'95: Francis outscored Jagr 19-15, but Jagr had 4 more goals (10 in 12 games)... I think this is more a fluke than Francis outplaying Jagr in this playoff... my somewhat hazy memory is that Jagr was the dominant player, as he was during the regular season (with Francis being excellent both before and during the playoffs)

It's certainly possible to argue Francis was better overall during those five playoffs, but it's very close, and after '91 I believe Jagr was at least as good as Francis in those four playoffs as a whole.

----------

As far as Francis vs. Gilmour, it's very, very close. I think I have to give Gilmour the slight edge, due to his better absolute (2-3 year) peak and better playoff numbers.

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Old
10-26-2012, 01:43 PM
  #128
Fred Taylor
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I agree with the poster above me. Gilmour's peak and playoffs tip the scales in favour of him, but it's very close I might add.

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10-26-2012, 07:03 PM
  #129
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
That's a good point. I think Francis and Jagr were pretty even in the playoffs from '91-95:

'91: Francis was better
'92: Agree with your analysis... Francis outscored slightly, but Jagr had 3 more goals and 2 more GWG, so it's very close as to who was more important (they were also both crucial when Lemieux was injured vs. Rangers, possibly the two most important players)
'93: Francis was better
'94: Jagr was better
'95: Francis outscored Jagr 19-15, but Jagr had 4 more goals (10 in 12 games)... I think this is more a fluke than Francis outplaying Jagr in this playoff... my somewhat hazy memory is that Jagr was the dominant player, as he was during the regular season (with Francis being excellent both before and during the playoffs)

It's certainly possible to argue Francis was better overall during those five playoffs, but it's very close, and after '91 I believe Jagr was at least as good as Francis in those four playoffs as a whole.

----------

As far as Francis vs. Gilmour, it's very, very close. I think I have to give Gilmour the slight edge, due to his better absolute (2-3 year) peak and better playoff numbers.
You are basing this on offense only. The gap defensively between a prime Francis and a very young Jagr is huge.

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10-26-2012, 08:10 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You are basing this on offense only. The gap defensively between a prime Francis and a very young Jagr is huge.
The gap defensively between Bob Gainey and Guy Lafleur is probably even wider, for example, but...

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Old
10-26-2012, 10:05 PM
  #131
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The gap defensively between Bob Gainey and Guy Lafleur is probably even wider, for example, but...
Excellent example.

Must be why Gainey won the Conn Smythe over Lafleur in 1979 despite being outscored 23-16.

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10-26-2012, 10:19 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Excellent example.

Must be why Gainey won the Conn Smythe over Lafleur in 1979 despite being outscored 23-16.
Right. And yet no one would make the mistake of ranking Gainey higher on any "all-time" list, nor would they likely choose him over Lafleur in a comparison such as this. So, much like Francis vs Jagr, there is an "overall calibre" distinction that is best made through exploration of the offense, imo.

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10-26-2012, 10:26 PM
  #133
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Right. And yet no one would make the mistake of ranking Gainey higher on any "all-time" list, nor would they likely choose him over Lafleur in a comparison such as this. So, much like Francis vs Jagr, there is an "overall calibre" distinction that is best made through exploration of the offense, imo.
No one was comparing Jagr to Francis for an all-time list purpose. We were comparing Jagr to Francis during the playoffs in Jagr's first 5 years in the league.

So thanks for showing an example of two players with a much greater gap offensively, but the defensive play leads to one being considered the better player for that playoff season.

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