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Hamilton or Toronto2/Markham

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Hamilton 107 47.56%
GTA2/Markham 118 52.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:21 PM
  #151
Killion
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
A lot people will go out of their way to avoid riding a bus, as opposed to other forms of transit.
... Roncesvalle Carhouse, grab a streetcar down to Union. Straight shot out to Hamilton on the Go.

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10-26-2012, 03:26 PM
  #152
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... Roncesvalle Carhouse, grab a streetcar down to Union. Straight shot out to Hamilton on the Go.
ehh... depends on the time of day. Your usually better off taking the streetcar up to Dundas West station, transfer to the University-Spadina line at St. George, then get off at Union.

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10-26-2012, 03:41 PM
  #153
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ehh... depends on the time of day. Your usually better off taking the streetcar up to Dundas West station, transfer to the University-Spadina line at St. George, then get off at Union.
... Id prolly get off at Osgoode, wander down Queen West to the Soho instead.

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10-26-2012, 03:44 PM
  #154
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I'd vote Markham.. but it says i'm not allowed to vote on this poll ???

must have been set up by a Hamilton backer !!!

j/k

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10-26-2012, 04:29 PM
  #155
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I'd vote Markham.. but it says i'm not allowed to vote on this poll ???

must have been set up by a Hamilton backer !!!

j/k
of course. like us hamilton backers are gonna leave anything to chance now. its a cut-throat game to get the next franchise. and quebec? don't think we have forgotten about you and your old arena compared to our slightly less old arena. hamilton has its nhl eye on you too and your assumed position of dominance in this race. hehe

re: buses. yes, of course there are buses and yes, they do get from A to B. but others have better addressed the point i was trying to make. most people wont take buses. not in hamilton. kids, students, sure. but not families or coworkers going to the game. and honestly, im not even sure why i was even making that point other than maybe just to b**ch about my daily struggle with stupid hammer roads and drivers ... and traffic light sensors that just dont work, and ya gotta wait for 3 minutes, then get out of your car and push the walk button, and then get back in too late for the crazy woman in the car behind ya who thinks her morse code horn blasts are lovely, and then my transponder doesnt work entering my lot so i have to buzz security, and really, who memorizes the 16 digit ID printed on the back of their transponder ...

... sorry, its the hockey withdrawl talking ...

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10-26-2012, 04:33 PM
  #156
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Yeah, we're definitely not on the same page as each other.

I was addressing the myth that is somewhat prevalent on this board that Hamilton is the centre of Southern Ontario, the perfect geographic place for a team. The numbers simply don't back that up. If someone had the chance to build a new arena on any land somewhere in GTA with the aim of attracting the widest possible population, the best place to do it would likely lie in Mississauga or Brampton. That isn't to downplay Hamilton, just dispel this myth.





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not centre of Southern Ontario silly, Hamilton is centre of the universe..

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10-26-2012, 11:34 PM
  #157
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Yeah, we're definitely not on the same page as each other.

I was addressing the myth that is somewhat prevalent on this board that Hamilton is the centre of Southern Ontario, the perfect geographic place for a team. The numbers simply don't back that up. If someone had the chance to build a new arena on any land somewhere in GTA with the aim of attracting the widest possible population, the best place to do it would likely lie in Mississauga or Brampton. That isn't to downplay Hamilton, just dispel this myth.

In comparison to London though, yeah I completely agree that it isn't close and apologize for misinterpreting your previous post. London is too far removed from the Golden Horseshoe to harness the potential that a second team in Southern Ontario could have.



The train is less of an issue. The main issue with GO Trains is timing. Nobody wants to miss the train and wait for an hour for the next one. If GO ran game-day service or the government finally follows through on its promise for half-hourly service, I think it would become very viable for those going to Copps. The train doesn't necessarily need to be faster than driving, just competitive.

The buses are a major issue though. While public transit in Ontario does not suffer from the social stigma that it does in many US cities, buses still do. A lot people will go out of their way to avoid riding a bus, as opposed to other forms of transit. Hamilton would likely need to build an LRT from the GO Station to Copps if the city was interested in providing a viable alternative to the car in getting to the game.
It's a 15 minute walk from Copps to the Go Station. City buses leave from there as well and would take you right to it, but it's not really worth the wait.

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10-26-2012, 11:39 PM
  #158
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It's a 15 minute walk from Copps to the Go Station. City buses leave from there as well and would take you right to it, but it's not really worth the wait.
15 minutes is too long. Do you know how many people are too lazy to walk for 15 minutes?

there has to be rapid transit (bus is not rapid transit) within 5 minutes of the arena, or else you have to rely primarily on drivers.

And relying on drivers in southern ontario is just asking for trouble. One of the worst traffic situations (worse than LA and NY) in north america.

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10-26-2012, 11:55 PM
  #159
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It's a 15 minute walk from Copps to the Go Station. City buses leave from there as well and would take you right to it, but it's not really worth the wait.
Google shows an 11 minute walk from the existing GO station, 13 from the future GO station.

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10-27-2012, 12:22 AM
  #160
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Google shows an 11 minute walk from the existing GO station, 13 from the future GO station.
people who are willing to walk at the speed of google estimates are not the target audience of an NHL team.

And how many upper-middle-class to wealthy people in southern ontario are willing to either drive to a GO station from home or walk/subway to a go station from work, take a train, and then walk another 10-20 minutes?

if current infrastructure stays as it is, a team at copps would be pretty much entirely reliant on drivers. That only/kinda/works in one city in the league, Ottawa, and sens fans ***** about it every game.

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10-27-2012, 01:21 AM
  #161
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people who are willing to walk at the speed of google estimates are not the target audience of an NHL team.

And how many upper-middle-class to wealthy people in southern ontario are willing to either drive to a GO station from home or walk/subway to a go station from work, take a train, and then walk another 10-20 minutes?

if current infrastructure stays as it is, a team at copps would be pretty much entirely reliant on drivers. That only/kinda/works in one city in the league, Ottawa, and sens fans ***** about it every game.
Many of them do that to go to Toronto every day.

That makes absolutely no sense: Hamilton's arena is in the exact centre of town and is passed by every single bus that goes down there. Ottawa's arena is on the outskirts of town near absolutely nothing. Like I said: It's a 15 minute walk to Copps from the station. It's a fifteen minute drive from Ottawa's downtown to Scotiabank place; they're not at all alike.

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10-27-2012, 02:49 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Many of them do that to go to Toronto every day.

That makes absolutely no sense: Hamilton's arena is in the exact centre of town and is passed by every single bus that goes down there. Ottawa's arena is on the outskirts of town near absolutely nothing. Like I said: It's a 15 minute walk to Copps from the station. It's a fifteen minute drive from Ottawa's downtown to Scotiabank place; they're not at all alike.
your argument would make a lot of sense if
a) there were a ton of middle-to-upper class residents in the 'centre of town' (i'll remind you again that the town we're talking about is hamilton, ontario).

b) you expected NHL-southern ontario to be able to survive on hamilton residents alone.


hamilton has a lot of things going for it. It's a great location, and the region is more-or-less hockey rabid. That said, there are two major issues: copps isnt NHL sufficient and hamilton is behind in getting it NHL efficient compared to their competitors, and Hamilton claims to have access to this great untapped market yet accessibility for this market is insufficient. These are issues that need to be addressed, and quickly. I personally have no doubt that hamilton would be without a doubt the best option for the next relocation/expansion site should they be addressed, but they havnt, and no one seems to be planning to do it within the next 2-4 years (which is the timeframe most seem to think/expect the NHL is looking at).


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10-27-2012, 03:36 AM
  #163
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your argument would make a lot of sense if
a) there were a ton of middle-to-upper class residents in the 'centre of town' (i'll remind you again that the town we're talking about is hamilton, ontario).
There are.

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b) you expected NHL-southern ontario to be able to survive on hamilton residents alone.
It can. I don't expect it to, but it can.


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hamilton has a lot of things going for it. It's a great location, and the region is more-or-less hockey rabid. That said, there are two major issues: copps isnt NHL sufficient and hamilton is behind in getting it NHL efficient compared to their competitors, and Hamilton claims to have access to this great untapped market yet accessibility for this market is insufficient. These are issues that need to be addressed, and quickly. I personally have no doubt that hamilton would be without a doubt the best option for the next relocation/expansion site should they be addressed, but they havnt, and no one seems to be planning to do it within the next 2-4 years (which is the timeframe most seem to think/expect the NHL is looking at).
That just depends on how the NHL wants it to play out (or how thhey get forced to play it out).

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10-27-2012, 04:46 AM
  #164
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There are.
nope. I may live in montreal, and have spent most of my life in ottawa, but i spend more than enough time in southern ontario to know that yours an my definitions of 'a ton' are very, very different.

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That just depends on how the NHL wants it to play out (or how thhey get forced to play it out).
if hamilton doesnt get the next NHL team, dont blame it on the NHL. Blame it on the city of hamilton and the government of ontario for not getting their **** together. The copps upgrade needs to be approved and implemented now in order for the city to have a chance. In addition, the infrastructure upgrades needed (both public transit and HWY) also have to be at the minimum planned, if not started.

hamilton is a city with NHL potential. But it's not ready and doesnt appear to have any inclination to remedy that, and the NHL isnt looking at is until that happens.

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10-27-2012, 04:52 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It's a 15 minute walk from Copps to the Go Station. City buses leave from there as well and would take you right to it, but it's not really worth the wait.
The average amount of distance that people are willing to walk to or from a transit station is 400m according to the Ontario Ministry of Transportation, or roughly a 5-6 minute walk. That echoes findings in other jurisdictions.

I don't doubt that there will be a minority who will have no problem walking such a distance but the idea is to provide an alternative to the car. If people have to walk 15 minutes, especially in winter, to get to the game from the train station, most will just drive instead.

Buses are not an attractive option, as I already mentioned. If you want to draw middle to upper class patrons out of their cars, some form of rapid transit is needed.

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10-27-2012, 10:46 AM
  #166
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nope. I may live in montreal, and have spent most of my life in ottawa, but i spend more than enough time in southern ontario to know that yours an my definitions of 'a ton' are very, very different.



if hamilton doesnt get the next NHL team, dont blame it on the NHL. Blame it on the city of hamilton and the government of ontario for not getting their **** together. The copps upgrade needs to be approved and implemented now in order for the city to have a chance. In addition, the infrastructure upgrades needed (both public transit and HWY) also have to be at the minimum planned, if not started.

hamilton is a city with NHL potential. But it's not ready and doesnt appear to have any inclination to remedy that, and the NHL isnt looking at is until that happens.
Yeah: Hamilton's in line for a team in 92; they have an NHL ready arena, an owner, and are sold-out for their first season, but the league chooses Ottawa (a city with an arena that seats 7,000 less people, and is nowhere near downtown). I like that Hamilton has to "get their **** together" if they want a team, though.


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10-27-2012, 11:09 AM
  #167
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If I was an NHL owner, Hamilton would be completely off the list of possible relocation or expansion cities after the role of the city in the Rodier/Balsillie "buy a team out of bankruptcy and bypass the NHL rules" scheme.

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10-27-2012, 11:20 AM
  #168
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If I was an NHL owner, Hamilton would be completely off the list of possible relocation or expansion cities after the role of the city in the Rodier/Balsillie "buy a team out of bankruptcy and bypass the NHL rules" scheme.
yeah but you know what, even tho I don't think Hamilton will get a team, in the end money talks and that's really all the owners care about, padding their pockets

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10-27-2012, 11:29 AM
  #169
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if hamilton doesnt get the next NHL team, dont blame it on the NHL. Blame it on the city of hamilton and the government of ontario for not getting their **** together. The copps upgrade needs to be approved and implemented now in order for the city to have a chance. In addition, the infrastructure upgrades needed (both public transit and HWY) also have to be at the minimum planned, if not started.
Sorry, but i don't buy that at all. The NHL knows exactly where it wants to be, and if they want to further tap the southern Ontario market by putting a team in Hamilton, I have no doubt the a clear, message would be sent to the city and any owner, and Copps would be upgraded in heartbeat.

As I've read before, Copps is accurately described , not as a physically or structurally old arena, but rather an economically old arena. Seats, ice making et al have been upgraded. It just needs private suites, and as has been mentioned here countless times, it was designed to be upgraded for such changes.

It would be quite easy to put an NHL team in Copps, even right now, if need be.

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10-27-2012, 11:31 AM
  #170
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The average amount of distance that people are willing to walk to or from a transit station is 400m according to the Ontario Ministry of Transportation, or roughly a 5-6 minute walk. That echoes findings in other jurisdictions.
IIRC, that's for every day living for such things as travelling every day to work, but for special events (ie. sporting events), it's at least double that, at 800m.

I'll see if I can find that.

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10-27-2012, 11:33 AM
  #171
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yeah but you know what, even tho I don't think Hamilton will get a team, in the end money talks and that's really all the owners care about, padding their pockets
Agreed 100%

Doesn't matter what any of us thing, if the NHL thinks it can make money in location A or location B, (while addressing concerns of existing franchises), then it'll happen, whether it be Hamilton, Markham, Quebec, Phoenix, Seattle, KC or wherever.

And this is exactly why I never say never for Hamilton.

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10-27-2012, 11:48 AM
  #172
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Yeah: I like that Hamilton has to "get their **** together" if they want a team, though.
Ya, works for me too. NOT!... as for public transit to & from Copps, it exists, its decent enough, easily increased on game & event dates but so what? Guaranteed 90% of the STH's will drive & park, these concerns over public transit rendered absolutely moot, a waste of brain cell's to even think about it much less debate the issue. This isnt the ACC or MSG, Hamilton sure aint no Toronto or New York City. Look at the MTS in Winnipeg. Sold out in about 15 minutes with a waiting list. An audience of combined Urban, Suburban & Rural subscribers.

Exact same thing will happen in Hamilton only on top of the cost of the ST's you'll be looking at a Seat Licence Fee, people only too happy to pay it, the very notion of then taking a Bus or a Train to games not even on the radar. Wouldnt even think about it. I mean honestly, what are some people thinking here? That a Hamilton franchise will be catering to students from Mac who'll be getting in for twenty bucks & bus fare? Give your heads a shake. Does Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton or Vancouver charge a Seat Licence Fee? Not on your Nelly. Just another bogus argument put forth by people who for 27yrs have bought hook line & sinker the NHL's utter nonsense & unmitigated BS that Hamilton's just riddled with all kinds of problems & obstacles to ever becoming feasible. Right out of the Box your talking a Top Tier revenue making machine. Blow the doors right off the MTS, Scotiabank etc.

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If I was an NHL owner, Hamilton would be completely off the list of possible relocation or expansion cities after the role of the city in the Rodier/Balsillie "buy a team out of bankruptcy and bypass the NHL rules" scheme.
... thank God your not an NHL owner then rojac. While I too was less than impressed with Balsillie & Rodiers' strategies in attempting to end-run the NHL's rules, get in on the "cheap", usurping its rights of self determination & who gets in, who doesnt, to hold the city & its citizenry/fans up as being complicit & culpable is both vindictive & shortsighted. Lets just throw the baby out with the bathwater shall we?

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10-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #173
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The main issue with GO Trains is timing. Nobody wants to miss the train and wait for an hour for the next one. If GO ran game-day service or the government finally follows through on its promise for half-hourly service, I think it would become very viable for those going to Copps.
Good news. Improved service is coming. From today...

Quote:
Hamilton is still on track to get all-day, two-way GO train service to Toronto in time for the Pan Am Games, says the provinceís transportation agency.

Officials from Metrolinx say Hamiltonís GO station will have a station building,...before the 2015 Games.
Quote:
Construction is set to begin in the spring of 2014.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-deck-for-2015

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10-29-2012, 01:24 PM
  #174
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people who are willing to walk at the speed of google estimates are not the target audience of an NHL team.

And how many upper-middle-class to wealthy people in southern ontario are willing to either drive to a GO station from home or walk/subway to a go station from work, take a train, and then walk another 10-20 minutes?

if current infrastructure stays as it is, a team at copps would be pretty much entirely reliant on drivers. That only/kinda/works in one city in the league, Ottawa, and sens fans ***** about it every game.
see this is the luxury of being in SO.. you'll have more than enough crazy hockey fans that'll walk through a blizzard to see their team.. just like Ottawa, they'll ***** and moan about it but they'll do it everytime and still go

if that lazy ticket holder doesnt want to walk, well than theres a whack of people that he can sell his ticket too..


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10-30-2012, 04:21 AM
  #175
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Voted GTA2. Imagine a conference final between the two Torontos. It would be civil war.

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