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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Adrian Dater-Gary Bettman deserves ALL of the blame

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Old
10-27-2012, 02:32 AM
  #176
MarkhamNHL
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Maybe not but they cut their expenses regardless.

If it is deemed as unfair to credit the league's growth with a rising canadian dollar then why does NHLPA assume 7% growth considering the CDN$ increase had a big role in that? While I agree with you it's unfair to credit them for such, the NHLPA doesn't seem to mind doing it, figure it's fair game. Either owners need more security and players should listen to them or owners are geniuses and players should listen to them.
the cdn dollar is forecast to continue rising against the US dollar thats why and the canadian tv contract will be up for renewal...
players don't trust the owners. why listen to them at all ??? it seems the NHL always outsmarts itself anyways lol.. Fehr ain't dumb he knows the revenues that are forthcoming in a new CDN tv deal..

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10-27-2012, 02:39 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Here's what I have seen to date.

NHL - We want to reduce the amount of money that teh players are getting by reducing the slice of the pie from 57/43 to an even split of 50/50

NHLPA - What are you offering us to get us to agree to that?

NHL - In addition to the reduction in the slice of the pie, we also want to cap contract terms at 5 years

NHLPA - What are you offering us to get us to agree to that?

NHL - We also want to eliminate the arbitration process, shorten ELC's from three to two years and push out UFA status from 27 years old or 7 years service to 28 years and 8 years of service

So my question to the pro owner crowd is, What IS the NHL offering in any of their proposals in terms of any sort of give-back to induce them to agreeing to a deal?


NHLPA - What are you offering us to get us to agree to that?

What are the owners suppose to do hire psychics so they know what the players would like. The only thing the players have wanted is to remove linkage and that is a non-starter as far as the NHL is concerned (and since we lost a year to get it I have to agree).

As for what the players get, they finally get to play in a healthy NHL, they would have had an average salary 2.4 million that likley would have grown to a 3.4 million average.

Ps most times when a business is not anywhere near as profitable as it needs to be the labour negotiations are decidedly one sided.

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10-27-2012, 02:47 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
What are the owners suppose to do hire psychics so they know what the players would like. The only thing the players have wanted is to remove linkage and that is a non-starter as far as the NHL is concerned (and since we lost a year to get it I have to agree).

As for what the players get, they finally get to play in a healthy NHL, they would have had an average salary 2.4 million that likley would have grown to a 3.4 million average.

Ps most times when a business is not anywhere near as profitable as it needs to be the labour negotiations are decidedly one sided.
the league is profitable, how they split their portion is not the players concern

in the real business world, when a franchise loses 40 million and has never made you a dime (ever), you close it or move it...

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10-27-2012, 03:58 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
because every other part of the offer is a straight take back from what the players gained in the last round of negotiations.

I agree that a 50/50 is fair. I disagree with the immediate drop down to that number costing the players an immediate rollback.

I do not think that the rest of the proposal is fair in terms of pushing out the UFA years, limiting the ELCs to two years, eliminating the Arb. Process, forcing teams to carry cap hits for players playing in the minors after being made freely available to the NHL. 5 year term limits on contracts.

It's terrible when the NHL tells the NHLPA that they can meet on and discuss "tweaks" to the Make Whole provision so long as ALL OF THE ABOVE is accepted.

The NHL's offer is to take back EVERYTHING they gave up in the last round of negotiations and is not willing to negotiate off of those points.

All negotiations are give and take, all I have seen from the NHL is take. Where is it exactly that they are giving in any of the proposale they have made?

Please do not say they went from 43/57 to 50/50 because at the end of the day, they are still TAKING
Of course they are going to take, they have all the leverage and need to stabilize the league. Its pretty bad when teams will make more money during a lockout then a full season. Player salaries are too high, the last CBA failed to address this so here we are again.

As far as the concessions with contracts, blame the teams that gave out the 10-15 cap circumventing contracts. These gms/owners are too competitive, and make horrible financial decisions so the league now has to fix loop holes to protect against these guys stupidity.


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10-27-2012, 04:06 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the league is profitable, how they split their portion is not the players concern

in the real business world, when a franchise loses 40 million and has never made you a dime (ever), you close it or move it...
This is not a real business world, your talking about a sport. If you closed every team that has been loosing money for the last 5 yrs you would end up with like 8-10 treams. Your talking a ton of fans, revenue, growth gone. This is exactly what the NHL and the NHLPA don't want.

I bet if the NHL threatened to contract the NHLPA would be more than happy to agree to a real 50/50 split and all the contract changes.

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10-27-2012, 12:00 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I don't know how people can say Bettman is doing a good job. He is the only commissioner ever to cancel an entire season,
Yes, and he did this all in a vacuum (2x even!!). The NHLPA had nothing to do with his actions...



Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
He has a team down in Phoenix that hasn't had an owner for how long? That is costing all his owners money to prop up, he has all these other markets losing money under his dream system, the sport is barely covered in most markets and viewed as a niche joke league, for a lot of reasons he's responsible for.
I'm curious what the NHLPA's view is on Phx? Have any players come out and said "just move them already?" Every dollar spent in Phx is a dollar out of an NHLPA member's pocket.


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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
If he thinks ''thank you fans'' is going to be enough to get us back this time he'd dead wrong.
No, he is 100% correct. You (and me and millions of others) will be there for game #1. If there is a game #1.

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10-27-2012, 12:29 PM
  #182
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The "3 lock-outs under Bettman" mantra keep repeated so often here, but has anyone considered this(via Wikipedia):

Quote:
With the NHL locking out at midnight on September 15, 2012, Fehr has become the only Executive Director to be directly involved in work stoppages in two sports. Six of the eight contract negotiations he has been involved in have resulted in work stoppages, including five consecutive negotiations between the MLBPA and Major League Baseball.

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10-27-2012, 12:31 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Without the talent that the players bring to the table, there would be no league.

Yes, the Owners provide the venue in which a player gets to display his talent. Fans come to those venue's to see that player....not the owner or the venue.

I could give a rats rear end what the building looks like as long as the team is good.

As for a fair deal?

An eight year deal with a 50/50 split for 6 years reached after a 2 year step down process. Year 1 55% to the players, Year 2 52.5% to the players, Years 3-8 50/50.

Limit the amount of Bonus Money available to kids on ELC's.

Continue to allow for long term contracts with a provision that no contract signed before the age of 30 can take a player beyond his 35th birthday. No contract year can start where a player turns 35 in season.

Do not allow for throw away years. Contract must pay out equal sums through the term.

Tweak the Arb System. As stated in previous posts, the idea of the Arb. System makes sense, but is problematic when on one party has walk away rights and the other doesn't. It's problematic when 99% of the time, one side benefits more than the other. Either the teams have to do a better job of arguing their case, or specific provisions need to be put into place to make winning the case more difficult.

Keep UFA age at 27 years old. The balance I would propose here is eliminate the time of service portion of the current equation. Straight forward 27 years old you are a UFA. in the league at 18? UFA at 27.
Why would the NHLPA ever accept that? Poor players. You can't just take advantage of them with pro owner offers like that. The players will and should demand much,much more. Quit stiff arming them!

You're offer doesn't give the players enough concessions for all the negatives they're taking.

Won't somebody please think of the players!

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10-27-2012, 12:39 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by RangerBlues View Post
Ok say 2 billion. Gary gets 5%. Thats more than any individual owner will get out of the deal.
So what you're saying is the CEO/President is the highest paid employee? OMG no wayyy!

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10-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
Bettman is a terrible. 2nd lockout in less then 10 years. Seriously?

Complete and utter incompetence.
Bettman: I'm bored, I think i'll have a lockout today.

Yup, that's gotta be how it works.

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10-27-2012, 02:46 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
The "3 lock-outs under Bettman" mantra keep repeated so often here, but has anyone considered this(via Wikipedia):
No, because it doesn't fit the "omg bettman is terrible" agenda. I wish NHLPA was still head by Kelly. We'd be done this already.

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10-27-2012, 03:01 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by shakes View Post
That and the fact that people are honestly saying that the players should be grateful to play in the league? The players didn't fluke into jobs in the NHL. This isn't some low skill job that these guys are lucky to have. They are highly skilled athletes who were good enough to be recruited by multiple teams willing to give them a lot of money to play.
So are lacrosse players in the MLL. Except for that last little part about "a lot of money." Why is that, again?

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10-27-2012, 03:38 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the league is profitable, how they split their portion is not the players concern

in the real business world, when a franchise loses 40 million and has never made you a dime (ever), you close it or move it...
You need to learn to read I said the league is not as profitable as it needs to be. 5 NHL teams are more than profitable enough but what about the other 25? What about the fact that it is taking 3years+ on average to sell any of the other 25. The NHL has run out of suckers who are willing to lose their shirt just to own a sports team. Fans often complain about the quality of NHL owners but you do not get quality people willing to buy unless there is a reasonable expectation of profit.

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10-27-2012, 04:34 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Bettman: I'm bored, I think i'll have a lockout today.

Yup, that's gotta be how it works.
He's a horrible commissioner. 3 lockouts and an officials lockout speaks for itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
No, because it doesn't fit the "omg bettman is terrible" agenda. I wish NHLPA was still head by Kelly. We'd be done this already.
Fehr wasn't running the PA during the previous lockouts was he?

This is the second lockout in 7 years. Absolutely ridiculous. Either the owners are absolute morons, or Bettman is.

Take your pick.

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10-27-2012, 05:26 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the league is profitable, how they split their portion is not the players concern

in the real business world, when a franchise loses 40 million and has never made you a dime (ever), you close it or move it...
I like your arguments . For which team did you play again?
You realize that the NHLPA loses a crapload of jobs with every contracted team? It is NOT in their best interest to close a franchise.
Relocation might be but that can be kind of difficult (arena lease,market, right owner , creating a bigger tv market...

Seriously. This is all about greed and pride. One of the worst combinations there is.

It would have been in the best interest of both sides to not lose one dollar of revenue because of bad publicity or even worse because of missed games/seasons.

Just ask yourself why didn't they start sooner with their negotiations? Why didn't they lock themselves into a room after the CBA expired and didn't stop until they hammered out a deal?

Because everyone of them is a "spoiled" (in terms of money and success) person who is used to get things done his way. Everyone believes that the other will budge. If it would be only about money, a deal would have been reached. It is about pride now, about egos.

I mean why not work together and maximize league profits? How about a 90 / 10 split for the players?

Owners have to reveal the costs of running a team to the NHLPA or another entity. Those costs get payed out of the total revenue pot.

The rest of the money made goes into a big pot (all 30 franchises combined, ) and from it lets say 90 % goes towards the players (cap gets calculated that way).
If they stop ************ around every 7 years and annihilating their fans, they would come out way ahead in a deal like that. Evenmoreso if the league flourishes. The owners get their steady 10 % (team adjusted) profits and absolute cost certainty. If the league flourishes, team value rises.

Yeah this probably is a bad proposal (MLSE would hate it ). I just wanted to show, that there are many creative ways to solve the financial issues if you work on it together.

But it is all about pride and "getting the money back". Both sides are hurting themselves big time. The players even moreso than the owners. Owners will lose a crapload of money but in the end they will get their way. That happened last time and it will happen again. They have the better bargaining position.

Fehr will ruin it for the players ( I wish they would shut up and stop showing us their delusions), get fired and the players will have to swallow their pride again and accept a craptastic deal. 7 years later, things might go even worse.

Nothing worse than watching a bunch of millionaires and billionaires *****ing about how unfair the world is and especially how bad their vital negotiation partner is treating them.

Happy days for lawyers.....

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