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Old
10-26-2012, 10:43 AM
  #26
Dangles78
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Tampa fans can hype Gusev all they want but I'm not sure how they think that he's worth Harrington. Though I already admitted I don't know too much about him, from what I've read he's a small perimeter player with good offensive instincts, but ignores all other aspects of the game. Plus he's a flight risk who has little success in the KHL. Harrington holds much, much more value.

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10-26-2012, 03:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Tampa fans can hype Gusev all they want but I'm not sure how they think that he's worth Harrington. Though I already admitted I don't know too much about him, from what I've read he's a small perimeter player with good offensive instincts, but ignores all other aspects of the game. Plus he's a flight risk who has little success in the KHL. Harrington holds much, much more value.
I believe the original offer was from a Pens fan. No TB fans hyping anybody here. However if Gusev comes over with Kucherov, we have ourselves a pretty deadly second line someday.

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10-26-2012, 05:23 PM
  #28
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I want to wait it out on Harrington. He is our shutdown man of the future.

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10-26-2012, 05:59 PM
  #29
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Pass on Kucherov done on Gusev.

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10-26-2012, 06:12 PM
  #30
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The fact that some people think Gusev and Harrington are even remotely comparable in terms of value at this point is laughable. It's a 2011 2nd rounder who's done nothing but improve his stock since the draft versus a 2012 7th rounder who's done nothing to improve his stock since the draft.

In fact, all things considered, I'd consider Harrington to be clearly more valuable than Kucherov too. Zero flight risk, and has a good case to be called the best defensive defense prospect in hockey. Can someone make the case that Kucherov's close to the best prospect in any category? I can't see it.

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10-26-2012, 07:02 PM
  #31
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Why the heck we wanting to deal Harrington for a 7th round pick? LOL!!!!

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10-26-2012, 07:27 PM
  #32
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Gusev for Harrington would be like us offering Anton Zlobin for, I don't know, Clendening or something.

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10-26-2012, 10:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by stayinalive View Post
Harrington for Gusev is laughable. Gusev was a 7th round pick a few monthy ago, while Harrington is one of the best defensive d-man prospects.
Harrington for Kucherov could happen, but i rather wait for harrington

Wonder if people said the same thing and how laughable it was to trade a Daigle for a Datsyuk.

Favoring a player due to draft pick place is ridiculous.

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10-27-2012, 12:11 AM
  #34
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Come on, that's a terrible comparison. Two players who debuted ~10 years apart versus a draft held FOUR months ago? That's just a cherry pickers argument. It's like if I pointed out how laughable it would have been to trade Patrice Bergeron for this guy: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=77585. It doesn't mean anything.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to trade a 2nd round prospect from a year ago for a 7th round prospect from a few months ago. Why would they? They've invested a high pick on him, clearly they value him higher than someone so recently taken 15 picks from the end of the draft.


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Old
10-27-2012, 12:16 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clefty View Post
Come on, that's a terrible comparison. Two players who debuted ~10 years apart versus a draft held FOUR months ago? That's just a cherry pickers argument.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to trade a 2nd round prospect from a year ago for a 7th round prospect from a few months ago. Why would they? They've invested a high pick on him, clearly they'll value him higher than someone so recently taken 15 picks from the end of the draft.
Yup. Clefty hit the nail on the head. That was a cherry picked argument to make. Harrington is proving himself. If both guys are equal in 2 years, maybe there is a trade to be made. No way in hell right now.

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10-27-2012, 10:21 AM
  #36
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I loved watching Kucherov at the U18s a couple of years ago. Kid was a pure scoring machine and always around the puck. We cannot expect Dupuis and Kunitz to post career years every season, both are entering their mid-30s soon. I think a lot of Harrington but I would probably make this deal (if Kucherov immediately signs an ELC). It makes no sense stockpiling top 4 defense prospects when we're never cashing them in for top 4 wingers, or at least not before Sid and Geno hit 30.

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10-27-2012, 10:39 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
I loved watching Kucherov at the U18s a couple of years ago. Kid was a pure scoring machine and always around the puck. We cannot expect Dupuis and Kunitz to post career years every season, both are entering their mid-30s soon. I think a lot of Harrington but I would probably make this deal (if Kucherov immediately signs an ELC). It makes no sense stockpiling top 4 defense prospects when we're never cashing them in for top 4 wingers, or at least not before Sid and Geno hit 30.
But does it make sense for the Pens to draft defense prospects and then deal them for forward prospects when they could've simply drafted the forwards themselves, as the Pens could've easily done with Kucherov?

To me, if they're going with a defenseman in what they think is the BPA move, then it makes more sense to develop them and then deal for a proven scoring winger instead of a boom/bust flight risk (I don't think Kucherov would stick in NA if he had to pay his AHL dues a la Tangradi). Shero's done a pretty good job of that so far.

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10-27-2012, 11:19 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But does it make sense for the Pens to draft defense prospects and then deal them for forward prospects when they could've simply drafted the forwards themselves, as the Pens could've easily done with Kucherov?
It makes sense in so far as our Euro scouting isn't good, and hasn't been good since the early 90s. When you are seemingly incapable of recognizing those talents it's not a bad strategy to draft according to your scouting strengths and trade for balance later.

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To me, if they're going with a defenseman in what they think is the BPA move, then it makes more sense to develop them and then deal for a proven scoring winger instead of a boom/bust flight risk (I don't think Kucherov would stick in NA if he had to pay his AHL dues a la Tangradi). Shero's done a pretty good job of that so far.
Yes, I see that point. But if we keep doing this we will be wasting the prime of our two superstar centers, forcing them to play with a revolving door of meh wingers while developing our D prospects. It took the Pens seven years each to turn Whitney and Goligoski into proven 6 NHL wingers. Do you want Shero to wait another 5 seasons before he gets Sid and Geno more help? We have enough trade chips on D that IMO we can risk trading some for high skill wing prospects at least once or twice. Kucherov could make the NHL pretty fast riding shotgun with Geno.

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Old
10-27-2012, 11:31 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
It makes sense in so far as our Euro scouting isn't good, and hasn't been good since the early 90s. When you are seemingly incapable of recognizing those talents it's not a bad strategy to draft according to your scouting strengths and trade for balance later.
But Kucherov hasn't really blown up since his draft, has he? I mean, he was well-known enough going into the summer of 2011, and I don't think he's shown anything unexpected since.

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Yes, I see that point. But if we keep doing this we will be wasting the prime of our two superstar centers, forcing them to play with a revolving door of meh wingers while developing our D prospects. It took the Pens seven years each to turn Whitney and Goligoski into proven 6 NHL wingers. Do you want Shero to wait another 5 seasons before he gets Sid and Geno more help? We have enough trade chips on D that IMO we can risk trading some for high skill wing prospects at least once or twice. Kucherov could make the NHL pretty fast riding shotgun with Geno.
But the prime of our two superstar centers has been most recently compromised by horrendous defense, not scoring. Crosby was scoring at an unprecedented pace with Dupuis and Kunitz and Malkin just finished wrapping up his best season ever. And then our blueline played like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off, and we earned a first-round playoff exit.

I'd like some more skill on the wings too, but I don't think we should be dealing from our blueline pool considering how much our big-league defense needs to retool. I'd much rather trade one of our veteran defensemen for a proven young scorer at a low ebb a la Stewart or Setoguchi.

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10-27-2012, 11:47 AM
  #40
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Read up on Gusev. If you can ever convince him to come over, he would be talked about very differently.
And thats why the Pens wouldn't do this move. Everybody is weary of fickle Russians.

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10-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #41
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But Kucherov hasn't really blown up since his draft, has he? I mean, he was well-known enough going into the summer of 2011, and I don't think he's shown anything unexpected since.
He's done about what one could expect of him. But I was wrong about the ELC thing - he signed with Tampa last month and will be playing in the Q this season. But uf you're saying Harrington, by comparison, has raised his stock, I would agree. It's still a deal that would make sense for both sides.

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But the prime of our two superstar centers has been most recently compromised by horrendous defense, not scoring. Crosby was scoring at an unprecedented pace with Dupuis and Kunitz and Malkin just finished wrapping up his best season ever. And then our blueline played like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off, and we earned a first-round playoff exit.
I think last year was more of an aberration because the entire team suffered a mental breakdown and was on a big cold streak (that already started in the final week of regular season). Our D was and is usually better than that. We lost in 7 games to the Habs because we couldn't solve Halak and couldn't stop Camalleri, so both O and D were at fault. We lost in 7 games to Tampa because without Sid and Geno we had nothing on offense, never scored more than 3 goals a game, and lost the final game 0-1. Another good winger could've made a difference.

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I'd like some more skill on the wings too, but I don't think we should be dealing from our blueline pool considering how much our big-league defense needs to retool. I'd much rather trade one of our veteran defensemen for a proven young scorer at a low ebb a la Stewart or Setoguchi.
But if our veteran defenders are so bad how would we pull that off? I'd love to trade Martin for Setoguchi. But right now that isn't on the table. But if Harrington for Kucherov was, I'd do it. It would be a high risk/high reward trade, sure. But if anyone can afford this it's us.

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10-27-2012, 12:19 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But Kucherov hasn't really blown up since his draft, has he? I mean, he was well-known enough going into the summer of 2011, and I don't think he's shown anything unexpected since.
Kucherov just came to NA to play in the Q for the Remparts, just played his first game on Thursday (and scored a pretty goal). That definitely raises his stock a fair amount.

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10-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #43
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Kucherov just came to NA to play in the Q for the Remparts, just played his first game on Thursday (and scored a pretty goal). That definitely raises his stock a fair amount.
I don't think scoring a pretty goal in one game has any impact on his value whatsoever.

The fact that he came over to play junior is at least encouraging, if not terribly value-affecting. The biggest challenge isn't getting Russians to come over while they're junior-eligible, it's getting them to stay over when they're too old for junior but don't immediately crack an NHL squad.

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He's done about what one could expect of him. But I was wrong about the ELC thing - he signed with Tampa last month and will be playing in the Q this season. But uf you're saying Harrington, by comparison, has raised his stock, I would agree. It's still a deal that would make sense for both sides.
That's what I'm saying. This doesn't really qualify as "trading for balance later" to me.

I can't see any new developments that would make the Pens change their minds and prefer Kucherov to Harrington now when they had the opportunity to draft him in 2011.

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I think last year was more of an aberration because the entire team suffered a mental breakdown and was on a big cold streak (that already started in the final week of regular season). Our D was and is usually better than that. We lost in 7 games to the Habs because we couldn't solve Halak and couldn't stop Camalleri, so both O and D were at fault. We lost in 7 games to Tampa because without Sid and Geno we had nothing on offense, never scored more than 3 goals a game, and lost the final game 0-1. Another good winger could've made a difference.
That's true, it hasn't always been defense...but we have traded for a 1st Team All-Star winger since then.

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But if our veteran defenders are so bad how would we pull that off? I'd love to trade Martin for Setoguchi. But right now that isn't on the table. But if Harrington for Kucherov was, I'd do it. It would be a high risk/high reward trade, sure. But if anyone can afford this it's us.
Nothing on the table now.

I guess I think our veterans (Martin, Orpik) still carry enough cachet around the league to be centerpieces in a deal like that. I'm not completely opposed to dealing one or two of our defense prospects for the right wing, but I think there are too many questions regarding Kucherov (unproven, non blue-chip prospect, Russian, top 6 or bust), and Harrington is too pro-projectable and fits our needs too perfectly to sign off on a deal like this.

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Old
10-27-2012, 01:39 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The fact that some people think Gusev and Harrington are even remotely comparable in terms of value at this point is laughable. It's a 2011 2nd rounder who's done nothing but improve his stock since the draft versus a 2012 7th rounder who's done nothing to improve his stock since the draft.

In fact, all things considered, I'd consider Harrington to be clearly more valuable than Kucherov too. Zero flight risk, and has a good case to be called the best defensive defense prospect in hockey. Can someone make the case that Kucherov's close to the best prospect in any category? I can't see it.
Dumb, if you're going to compare them, compare them. Lets just pretend Gusev isn't a PPG player in russian juniors, or had a ridiculous showing in the last WJC, or put up 76 points in 34 games in russian juniors last season, etc etc. If Gusev were "Smith" and played in the CHL most of the idiots on here would be falling all over him and he'd have been a low first/high second round pick, just like Kucherov.

Harrington in the grand scheme of things isn't a good enough skater to survive in Tampas system, but his passing ability is pretty good. Lets not get too excited folks.

FTR, Gusev is ready to come over as long as he has a shot at the big club.

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10-27-2012, 02:00 PM
  #45
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Dumb, if you're going to compare them, compare them. Lets just pretend Gusev isn't a PPG player in russian juniors, or had a ridiculous showing in the last WJC, or put up 76 points in 34 games in russian juniors last season, etc etc. If Gusev were "Smith" and played in the CHL most of the idiots on here would be falling all over him and he'd have been a low first/high second round pick, just like Kucherov.
We don't need to pretend. All of this was well-known in June, and Gusev still went in the 7th round.

Because he's skilled, but very much a boom-or-bust type. And because he had already been passed over completely in one draft.

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Harrington in the grand scheme of things isn't a good enough skater to survive in Tampas system, but his passing ability is pretty good. Lets not get too excited folks.
Not only is Harrington mobile (based on scouting reports and multiple first-hand viewings of the WJCs and Knights), but Pittsburgh's entire philosophy is predicated on quick puck retrieval and transition (for better or worse). If the Pittsburgh staff identified him as a guy who could execute Penguins hockey, then his skating can make it anywhere.

But I'm sure Boucher's 1-3-1 would require way too much of him :



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Old
10-27-2012, 02:22 PM
  #46
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Maybe for Kucherov do Tangradi and a 3rd?

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10-27-2012, 02:27 PM
  #47
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I hate this deal as a Pens fan.

Despite how many D we have in the pipeline, we have none like Harrington and he's the exact type of defenseman we need. Orpik is no spring chicken and Harrington is as good as a shutdown D prospect there is right now.

Lets just keep our young D and trade them for the next James Neal

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10-27-2012, 03:16 PM
  #48
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Were i a pens fan id make this deal in a heartbeat. like its been said, they have lots of d prospects and its worth a shot for some good wingers

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10-27-2012, 06:33 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We don't need to pretend. All of this was well-known in June, and Gusev still went in the 7th round.

Because he's skilled, but very much a boom-or-bust type. And because he had already been passed over completely in one draft.


Not only is Harrington mobile (based on scouting reports and multiple first-hand viewings of the WJCs and Knights), but Pittsburgh's entire philosophy is predicated on quick puck retrieval and transition (for better or worse). If the Pittsburgh staff identified him as a guy who could execute Penguins hockey, then his skating can make it anywhere.

But I'm sure Boucher's 1-3-1 would require way too much of him :

Harrington is mobile, but I still don't think hes mobile enough for here. Excuse me for thinking that Pittsburgh isn't the pinnacle of the hockey world. As for the video, its easy to cherrypick:

I guess based off that, you should really hang on to Harrington. You'll need him.

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10-27-2012, 06:35 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I hate this deal as a Pens fan.

Despite how many D we have in the pipeline, we have none like Harrington and he's the exact type of defenseman we need. Orpik is no spring chicken and Harrington is as good as a shutdown D prospect there is right now.

Lets just keep our young D and trade them for the next James Neal
****, I had to take a look... I was thinking Orpik was still in his late 20s, not 32. Oi. Your post makes a lot more sense.

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