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It's Not About Winning Or Losing. It's About Who Gets The Blame (CBA/Lockout) XVI

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Old
10-27-2012, 02:52 PM
  #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Fehr was brought in to do one thing, and that was to attack the cap.

The NHLPA really has no idea what they are letting themselves in for. I guess this is what happens when you let the rich players "negotiate" instead of the guys earning 500K a year
That's the biggest issue here I think. I have a feeling the players won't be given anything to vote on until the Parise's and Crosby's etc. are happy. The PA really only seems to care about those guys, not about the guys that are making ~1.5 million a year or less. I bet if those guys were in charge of the negotiations things would be going a lot differently.

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10-27-2012, 02:52 PM
  #952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAX View Post
If they wanted the best deal they would have not fired Paul Kelly and brought in Fehr. Fehr isn't here to make a deal....he is here for the PA's schorched earth policy.
I know one thing about this lockout. The players are going to get exactly what they deserve. Whether it's a rollback, a number of restrictions on salary and player movement, the loss of guaranteed contracts. The players even made sure they'd get the loss season they wanted by hiring Fehr. Yeah...these players are a keen bunch.

Watching this go down is like watching the Idiots Guide to Being an Idiot get authored by 600+ idiots.

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10-27-2012, 02:53 PM
  #953
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Weird.

This is the first time in weeks I have come to the HF Boards to discuss the CBA. I used to love this place and still do but my interest in the whole thing has really declined.

I never thought that would take place. I thought I would be on this and debating and reading the tweets and messages from each side.

Reality is that I have found myself really hating both sides so much more than I thought I would. I truly think this time the NHL and NHLPA have miscalculated the fan response.

I saw my team win the Cup. I live in a beautiful part of the world. I have thousands of means of entertainment out there compared to 2004.

I wonder how many serious hockey fans like myself are also at this point?

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10-27-2012, 03:07 PM
  #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Weird.

This is the first time in weeks I have come to the HF Boards to discuss the CBA. I used to love this place and still do but my interest in the whole thing has really declined.

I never thought that would take place. I thought I would be on this and debating and reading the tweets and messages from each side.

Reality is that I have found myself really hating both sides so much more than I thought I would. I truly think this time the NHL and NHLPA have miscalculated the fan response.

I saw my team win the Cup. I live in a beautiful part of the world. I have thousands of means of entertainment out there compared to 2004.

I wonder how many serious hockey fans like myself are also at this point?

Many. I don't miss the game, and that's sad. Not only do I not miss it, but I hope for a year or two long lockout if it'll wait the players the **** up. On top of it, players i used to particularly like or enjoy...because of their comments through all of this...I can't even stomach the idea of getting behind them and rooting them on. When you hit indifference...that feeling of simply not caring one way or another, I think it tells you about the state of things. I may not be in the majority in my feelings..but I'm far from the only person who's simply had enough and can't be bothered getting caught in the middle of this anymore.

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10-27-2012, 03:08 PM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Weird.

This is the first time in weeks I have come to the HF Boards to discuss the CBA. I used to love this place and still do but my interest in the whole thing has really declined.

I never thought that would take place. I thought I would be on this and debating and reading the tweets and messages from each side.

Reality is that I have found myself really hating both sides so much more than I thought I would. I truly think this time the NHL and NHLPA have miscalculated the fan response.

I saw my team win the Cup. I live in a beautiful part of the world. I have thousands of means of entertainment out there compared to 2004.

I wonder how many serious hockey fans like myself are also at this point?

I also think that if there is a lost season that fans will make the nhl pay for this. They are losing fans daily.

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Old
10-27-2012, 03:15 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
De-linkage and player raises (albeit small ones designed to reduce their overall share) is a massive PA win. That would be the NHL waiving the white flag. Nothing the owners have proposed up to this point suggests that they would consider that.

I believe the PA will "win" this CBA AND receive less money than they would under the last NHL proposal.
Linkage is a hoax and a lie. 50/50 split is what it says it is. Stop sponsoring NHLPA lies.

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Old
10-27-2012, 03:19 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
De-linkage and player raises (albeit small ones designed to reduce their overall share) is a massive PA win. That would be the NHL waiving the white flag. Nothing the owners have proposed up to this point suggests that they would consider that.

I believe the PA will "win" this CBA AND receive less money than they would under the last NHL proposal.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ONLY issue here is linkage.

The NHL has and will continue to refuse any offers that are not linked to a percentage of HRR each year. This is why 10 minutes was all that was needed to reject the NHLPA's last proposals. It's the first thing Gary looked for, the rest was meaningless. The rest was meaningless to the NHLPA as well since they didn't provide anything else.

Bettman and Daly will not entertain a delinked offer of any kind. It was the linch-pin major victory of the last CBA and it is the only non-negotiable.

The NHLPA has never offered a proposal that is linked. They haven't because all the 'honour contracts', 'we got hosed last time', and all the rest of the one liners are all smoke and mirrors for the public, and hopefully if they're lucky a few clueless owners. The real issue, the only issue is delinkage as a starting point to attack the cap either now or in the future.

Many PA supporters and NHL supporters alike have trotted out these wonderful 'soft landing' proposals that should make both sides happy arriving at the universally-accepted-as-fair-50/50-split. Haven't we all noticed that the NHLPA has never offered one? They could most likely have all current contracts 'honoured' (as before) with a gradual lowering of percentages to 50% if they bothered to negotiate for it. BUT THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE LINKED PROPOSALS.

Bettman and Daly have come out numerous times and told the press and the NHLPA that they are open to negotiating all peripheral issues, they have negotiated against themselves from 43% up to 50%, they have tried to engage the PA in negotiations on a linked framework (similar to the previous one with percentage changes), but the NHLPA has refused each time.

Until the NHLPA accepts that linkage is here to stay, there will be no hockey. Delinking is a step towards an assault on the cap and though many fans may be confused and sidetracked by the smoke and mirrors PR spin, this is the ONLY issue of importance to the NHLPA, and if you look closely at the facts, it's clear as day.

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Old
10-27-2012, 03:23 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Many. I don't miss the game, and that's sad. Not only do I not miss it, but I hope for a year or two long lockout if it'll wait the players the **** up. On top of it, players i used to particularly like or enjoy...because of their comments through all of this...I can't even stomach the idea of getting behind them and rooting them on. When you hit indifference...that feeling of simply not caring one way or another, I think it tells you about the state of things. I may not be in the majority in my feelings..but I'm far from the only person who's simply had enough and can't be bothered getting caught in the middle of this anymore.
100% agree with this. The last lockout for me seemed to be about something worth fighting for this one is all about money. I hope they both get less of our money.

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Old
10-27-2012, 03:24 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Can someone tell me how nhl salaries are more than nfl players get on average?
Large rosters, non-guaranteed contracts, and a glut of new players coming every year from the NCAA - a good chunk of the NFL roster is near minimum salary, largely replaceable, meat.

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Old
10-27-2012, 03:25 PM
  #960
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Owners vs. Players: Still tied at 1 in the 102nd Overtime Period. Long intermission.

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10-27-2012, 03:34 PM
  #961
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If I was an owner of an NHL team, I would absolutely not entertain the notion of delinkage.

We can talk about 'fair' this and fair that, but what really comes down to is: if you were an owner, would you allow the players to keep making 57% of revenues?

Right or wrong, you probably wouldn't. Let's say you are making money - better for you for them to make less. Let's say you are losing money - again, even more important for them to make less. The 57% was a huge win for the players last time but of course they fail to mention that, ever.

The NHLPA can't win this. It's just tilting at windmills.

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10-27-2012, 03:38 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
If I was an owner of an NHL team, I would absolutely not entertain the notion of delinkage.

We can talk about 'fair' this and fair that, but what really comes down to is: if you were an owner, would you allow the players to keep making 57% of revenues?

Right or wrong, you probably wouldn't. Let's say you are making money - better for you for them to make less. Let's say you are losing money - again, even more important for them to make less. The 57% was a huge win for the players last time but of course they fail to mention that, ever.

The NHLPA can't win this. It's just tilting at windmills.
agreed though. If I'm an owner, why would I want to accept de-linkage? Too much risk which is exactly what they dont want.

with them offering a drop only if revenue rises at 5%, All they're gonna think about is what happens when it only goes up 4.5%? well, the owners lose alot more money.

Delinkage will not be accepted anytime soon.

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10-27-2012, 03:42 PM
  #963
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It's interesting to note as well that linkage has been great for the players, and while a firm cap could have worked out better for the owner's last time around, their not looking for that, they want to share an equal portion of HRR with the players going forward. Greedy Buggers!

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10-27-2012, 03:43 PM
  #964
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Speculation: Most Player interviews are actually answered by the NHLPA, which explains all of the pro-NHLPA language.

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10-27-2012, 03:59 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
So that $25 million bonus Suter worked into his contract had nothing to do with him realizing the CBA is also a contract and could alter his future salary? This stance the players have is wholly disingenuous. They are well aware of the stipulations a CBA may impose, current or future. The victim act is frankly, irritating.
Buying life insurance doesn't mean you think you're going to die. Moreover, signing bonuses aren't subject to escrow. As escrow rose under the last agreement, it was inevitable contracts would begin to be structured like his.

I do agree that the general player victim act is irritating. But Leipold DID negotiate in bad faith in this case.

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10-27-2012, 04:04 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Weird.

This is the first time in weeks I have come to the HF Boards to discuss the CBA. I used to love this place and still do but my interest in the whole thing has really declined.

I never thought that would take place. I thought I would be on this and debating and reading the tweets and messages from each side.

Reality is that I have found myself really hating both sides so much more than I thought I would. I truly think this time the NHL and NHLPA have miscalculated the fan response.

I saw my team win the Cup. I live in a beautiful part of the world. I have thousands of means of entertainment out there compared to 2004.

I wonder how many serious hockey fans like myself are also at this point?
I was a lot more rattled in 2004 than I am now. After all that's transpired over the past month, I've become apathetic to just about all of it. These 2 sides are the biggest clown shows in professional sports and I'm embarrassed to say I'm a die hard hockey fan.

My son just started playing youth hockey and let me tell you, you'll quickly forget about the greed within the NHL after watching a bunch of kids play their hearts out.

**** the NHL.

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Old
10-27-2012, 04:05 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Fehr was brought in to do one thing, and that was to attack the cap.

The NHLPA really has no idea what they are letting themselves in for. I guess this is what happens when you let the rich players "negotiate" instead of the guys earning 500K a year
If so the players are Morons. Under the cap they were being paid more than ever before...why this crusade against a system that has laid them a golden egg? Do they not realize half the nhl teams were taking a loss under the cap system?

I feel bad for the players: on average they have a highschool understanding of business and economics, and now instead of being educated on the reality of the situation by Fehr and his goons they are being fed a bunch of lies. The player's stance is so far out in left field right now it is unbelievable.

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10-27-2012, 04:13 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Buying life insurance doesn't mean you think you're going to die. Moreover, signing bonuses aren't subject to escrow. As escrow rose under the last agreement, it was inevitable contracts would begin to be structured like his.

I do agree that the general player victim act is irritating. But Leipold DID negotiate in bad faith in this case.
So Leipold is out $20 million with no hockey being played and he's the only one who negotiated in bad faith? Good deal for those two players I'd say. They get to vent to anyone who'll listen to them about how unfair it is and pad their bank accounts at the same time. Maybe they'll get into a Ferrari throwing contest on twitter.

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10-27-2012, 04:15 PM
  #969
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I wonder at what point do the out of work players lose as much money as they hope to gain given their proposals?

Anyone good with numbers? I mean, if they lose the whole year they must be making less money over the course of a new CBA that they find preferable than if they played this year under a CBA that the owners find preferable.

I wonder if they actually understand this or are they too wrapped up in their little crusade. Take the 50/50 split ASAP and negotiate to keep contract lengths and UFA ages about the same.


Last edited by WhereIsIt: 10-27-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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10-27-2012, 04:17 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
So Leipold is out $20 million with no hockey being played and he's the only one who negotiated in bad faith? Good deal for those two players I'd say. They get to vent to anyone who'll listen to them about how unfair it is and pad their bank accounts at the same time. Maybe they'll get into a Ferrari throwing contest on twitter.
While I have little sympathy for what the players lose now, considering they'd have lost very little under Bettman's last deal and their unionhead responded to it by attacking the cap, yes, Leipold's the only one who negotiated (the Suter contract) in bad faith.

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10-27-2012, 04:18 PM
  #971
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I wonder at what point do the out of work players lose as much money as they hope to gain given their proposals?

Anyone good with numbers?
I had originally ballparked it at NOW: ~$500M separating the sides (over entire course of the deal), and if players lose 25 games, then their share of 1.9B shrinks by about that much.

However, a couple pages back, someone mentioned TSN ran the numbers and said the players are only out $360M so far, considering condensed schedules and the lower 50% figure they'd have made by taking the league's offer.

Whatever. It's almost academic. If they haven't lost already, they'll lose momentarily. The league's not coming back with 50% again.

Which leaves me with nothing to conclude but that Fehr is representing them horribly and they have no idea.

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10-27-2012, 04:29 PM
  #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
So Leipold is out $20 million with no hockey being played and he's the only one who negotiated in bad faith? Good deal for those two players I'd say. They get to vent to anyone who'll listen to them about how unfair it is and pad their bank accounts at the same time. Maybe they'll get into a Ferrari throwing contest on twitter.
lol...how on earth did the players negotiation contracts in "bad faith"?

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10-27-2012, 04:30 PM
  #973
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
While I have little sympathy for what the players lose now, considering they'd have lost very little under Bettman's last deal and their unionhead responded to it by attacking the cap, yes, Leipold's the only one who negotiated (the Suter contract) in bad faith.
As far as I understand it Parise's and Suter's contracts are identical. Also it was reported that they left money on the table from other teams. If they 'left money on the table' because the contract they signed with the Wild had more signing bonus money (thus guaranteed) attached then they knew exactly what (and why) they were doing.

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10-27-2012, 04:32 PM
  #974
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ONLY issue here is linkage.

The NHL has and will continue to refuse any offers that are not linked to a percentage of HRR each year. This is why 10 minutes was all that was needed to reject the NHLPA's last proposals. It's the first thing Gary looked for, the rest was meaningless. The rest was meaningless to the NHLPA as well since they didn't provide anything else.

Bettman and Daly will not entertain a delinked offer of any kind. It was the linch-pin major victory of the last CBA and it is the only non-negotiable.

The NHLPA has never offered a proposal that is linked. They haven't because all the 'honour contracts', 'we got hosed last time', and all the rest of the one liners are all smoke and mirrors for the public, and hopefully if they're lucky a few clueless owners. The real issue, the only issue is delinkage as a starting point to attack the cap either now or in the future.

Many PA supporters and NHL supporters alike have trotted out these wonderful 'soft landing' proposals that should make both sides happy arriving at the universally-accepted-as-fair-50/50-split. Haven't we all noticed that the NHLPA has never offered one? They could most likely have all current contracts 'honoured' (as before) with a gradual lowering of percentages to 50% if they bothered to negotiate for it. BUT THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE LINKED PROPOSALS.

Bettman and Daly have come out numerous times and told the press and the NHLPA that they are open to negotiating all peripheral issues, they have negotiated against themselves from 43% up to 50%, they have tried to engage the PA in negotiations on a linked framework (similar to the previous one with percentage changes), but the NHLPA has refused each time.

Until the NHLPA accepts that linkage is here to stay, there will be no hockey. Delinking is a step towards an assault on the cap and though many fans may be confused and sidetracked by the smoke and mirrors PR spin, this is the ONLY issue of importance to the NHLPA, and if you look closely at the facts, it's clear as day.
I agree with this analysis. Fehr should trade the future for today, like the government, by asking for a longer term deal 10+ years, in exchange for a higher linked percentage than 50%. That way, the NHL has to fix their own mess without the players taking it in the shorts. They always talk about the next CBA, same thing happening, so why not push it out as far as you can, and get all you can get today. Certainly today's players would go for that, do you really think they care about the next CBA if it is 12 years out?

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10-27-2012, 04:36 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ONLY issue here is linkage.

The NHL has and will continue to refuse any offers that are not linked to a percentage of HRR each year. This is why 10 minutes was all that was needed to reject the NHLPA's last proposals. It's the first thing Gary looked for, the rest was meaningless. The rest was meaningless to the NHLPA as well since they didn't provide anything else.

Bettman and Daly will not entertain a delinked offer of any kind. It was the linch-pin major victory of the last CBA and it is the only non-negotiable.

The NHLPA has never offered a proposal that is linked. They haven't because all the 'honour contracts', 'we got hosed last time', and all the rest of the one liners are all smoke and mirrors for the public, and hopefully if they're lucky a few clueless owners. The real issue, the only issue is delinkage as a starting point to attack the cap either now or in the future.

Many PA supporters and NHL supporters alike have trotted out these wonderful 'soft landing' proposals that should make both sides happy arriving at the universally-accepted-as-fair-50/50-split. Haven't we all noticed that the NHLPA has never offered one? They could most likely have all current contracts 'honoured' (as before) with a gradual lowering of percentages to 50% if they bothered to negotiate for it. BUT THEY REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE LINKED PROPOSALS.

Bettman and Daly have come out numerous times and told the press and the NHLPA that they are open to negotiating all peripheral issues, they have negotiated against themselves from 43% up to 50%, they have tried to engage the PA in negotiations on a linked framework (similar to the previous one with percentage changes), but the NHLPA has refused each time.

Until the NHLPA accepts that linkage is here to stay, there will be no hockey. Delinking is a step towards an assault on the cap and though many fans may be confused and sidetracked by the smoke and mirrors PR spin, this is the ONLY issue of importance to the NHLPA, and if you look closely at the facts, it's clear as day.
BINGO!!! No hockey until this is acknowledged!

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