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Ovi can't even light up the KHL, can we finally admit that he's past his prime?

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Old
10-27-2012, 06:22 PM
  #201
hurricanedave
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He's still in his prime, but has already peaked. Fifth in goals last season is still great, especially considering Washington's system. I personally believed that he could have hit 50 again this season with Oates behind the bench, but no more 82 games this year.

One other thing, the suggestion that players peak at 23, 25, 27 is just silly. Better off suggesting something such as "Players peak between the ages of 23-28 on average." There is not some single magical year in every human's life where they reach an athletic peak, humans have many variables.

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10-27-2012, 06:30 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
I consider him post-peak but still in his prime. How many examples can you name of a player finishing 7th in points/5th in goals (or better), in a non-prime season? Obviously the usual supsects: Gretzky, Lemieux and Howe. Who else? The Hulls maybe? Selanne perhaps. And all these guys were in at-least their mid-thirties.
It should be noted that Gretzky used to win scoring titles after his prime offensive years. Before the age of 25 Wayne had scored over 196 points a season 5 years in a row (including 4 over 200) after that he scored 183 at 26 then never over 170. Its easy to see his peak ended by 1986 (25 years old) but he still won three more Art Ross trophies including one in the mid-90s.

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10-27-2012, 06:32 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
Rookie year: Ovechkin (52/54/106) vs. Stamkos (23/23/46)
2nd year: Ovechkin (46/46/92) vs. Stamkos (51/44/95)
3rd year: Ovechkin (65/47/112) vs. Stamkos (45/46/91)
4th year: Ovechkin (56/54/110) vs. Stamkos (60/37/97)

Ovechkin averaged 54.75 goals per season his first four seasons. Stamkos averaged 44.75.
Ovechkin averaged 105 points per season his first four seasons. Stamkos averaged 82.25.

In what Canadian-centric universe was Ovechkin never on Stamkos' level? And the three other 100+ point seasons besides his 65-goal campaign were just "good"?
What was average goals per game in those years...just wondering.

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10-27-2012, 06:59 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
What was average goals per game in those years...just wondering.
That's a good point. The best data I could find are the hockey-reference.com adjusted single season goals: http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_season.html

Ovechkin comes in 2nd, 33rd, 64th, 92nd, and 157th.
Stamkos comes in at 7th, 58th, and 119th.

I didn't mean to discredit Stamkos with my earlier post - he's a phenomenal player - but to suggest that Ovechkin was never on his level and had only one great season seems pretty disingenuous to me.

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10-27-2012, 10:18 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Airlines View Post
Ovechkin was never on a Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos level to begin with. He had one great season and a bunch of good ones, with a very mediocre one last year. Johnathan Cheechoo also had one great season.
Oh god
Yeah right - one great season season which is indicated by 2 Harts and 3 Pearson/Lindsay awards.
Ovechkin was better than both Crosby and Malkin on his 1st 5 years. Simply better.
Stamkos?

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10-28-2012, 10:21 AM
  #206
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This topic has made me come up with a few conclusions.

1. Ovechkin is still very talented but his days of winning Hart trophies is possibly behind him.

2. Players' statistical peaks don't usually coincide with their physical peaks.

3. The KLH is a lot tougher to score in than most people wanted to admit.

4. At his best, Ovechkin was on the same level as Crosby and Malkin.

5. People like to hate on those players that have so much talent.

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10-28-2012, 10:22 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
It should be noted that Gretzky used to win scoring titles after his prime offensive years. Before the age of 25 Wayne had scored over 196 points a season 5 years in a row (including 4 over 200) after that he scored 183 at 26 then never over 170. Its easy to see his peak ended by 1986 (25 years old) but he still won three more Art Ross trophies including one in the mid-90s.
Gretzky's last Art Ross was 1993-94, that's not the mid 90's, just saying.

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10-28-2012, 10:33 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Gretzky's last Art Ross was 1993-94, that's not the mid 90's, just saying.
I think it is. I see it as
Early 90's
90-91
91-92
92-93
Mid 90's
93-94
94-95
95-96
96-97
Late 90's
97-98
98-99
99-00

At the very least it's the last year of the early 90's.

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10-28-2012, 11:02 AM
  #209
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I hope Ovi returns to form and gets back on the Crosby/Malkin tier.

He's still very young at 27 and can definitely get back on the 50 goal mark, or at the very least 40+ mark.

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10-28-2012, 11:41 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Gretzky's last Art Ross was 1993-94, that's not the mid 90's, just saying.
You're really just splitting hairs here.

And yes... 93-94 is mid 90's.

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Old
10-28-2012, 12:18 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
This topic has made me come up with a few conclusions.

1. Ovechkin is still very talented but his days of winning Hart trophies is possibly behind him.

2. Players' statistical peaks don't usually coincide with their physical peaks.

3. The KLH is a lot tougher to score in than most people wanted to admit.

4. At his best, Ovechkin was on the same level as Crosby and Malkin.

5. People like to hate on those players that have so much talent.
All 5 points are pretty reasonable... But oh so boring... This post is seriously lacking in both hyperbole and a few blatantly incorrect and/or outlandish claims or arguements, stated with such gusto and confidence, that it would appear to be a well researched fact or an opinion backed up with infallible logic.

Anyway... I am Hoping whenever the NHL comes back Ovechkin can have a bit of a rebound. The NHL is a more interesting/fun league when Ovechkin is front and centre

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10-28-2012, 12:28 PM
  #212
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I wonder how many of these people that bring up Gretzky even watched him play for most of his career. I'd bet many of these people are the same ones who whine about Crosby being protected. The fact is that no player in pro sports history was more protected than Wayne Gretzky. The only guy who had the balls to play him tough was Neil Sheehy. Gretzky had all the space on the world because nobody would lay a hand on him. And even then he was known around the league as "Whine Gretzky". All that helped greatly with his numbers, aside from the fact it was a different and far more wide open game most of his career.

I love the guy, and his talent was not overhyped by any means but these comparisons are totally apples and oranges. Gretzky wouldn't sniff those type of numbers in today's game. Not even close.

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10-28-2012, 02:27 PM
  #213
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I think superstar players peak statistically in their early to mid 20's...but peak as a complete player at their late 20's to early 30's and onwards.
Happens all the time.


Last edited by hockeyGod: 10-28-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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Old
10-28-2012, 03:31 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
Oh god
Yeah right - one great season season which is indicated by 2 Harts and 3 Pearson/Lindsay awards.
Ovechkin was better than both Crosby and Malkin on his 1st 5 years. Simply better.
Stamkos?
That's an opinion, and one which many people disagree with. To say that either one of Crosby or Ovechkin was definitively better than the other in their first five seasons is simply laughable. Crosby had a 1.36 PPG average during their first five seasons while Ovechkin had 1.34 PPG average. It's splitting hairs, because neither of them were exactly defensive dynamos.

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10-28-2012, 09:43 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
That's an opinion, and one which many people disagree with. To say that either one of Crosby or Ovechkin was definitively better than the other in their first five seasons is simply laughable. Crosby had a 1.36 PPG average during their first five seasons while Ovechkin had 1.34 PPG average. It's splitting hairs, because neither of them were exactly defensive dynamos.
Lets see. Calder. 2 Harts. 2 Richards. 1 Ross. Should of absolutely threepeated the Hart, only 2 less points in 10 less games, and a +45. Oh yeah and the best Caps player in the playoffs every time with other core players disappearing.

Anyways, Dynamos coach for the 10th time is a German Dale Hunter. Ovechkin isn't shooting as much as he could, isn't really playing late game if his team is leading.


Last edited by SimplySensational: 10-28-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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Old
10-28-2012, 09:58 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
Lets see. Calder. 2 Harts. 2 Richards. 1 Ross. Should of absolutely threepeated the Hart, only 2 less points in 10 less games, and a +45. Oh yeah and the best Caps player in the playoffs every time with other core players disappearing.

Anyways, Dynamos coach for the 10th time is a German Dale Hunter. Ovechkin isn't shooting as much as he could, isn't really playing late game if his team is leading.
That's great, but it still doesn't mean he was the better player. Crosby had equally impressive numbers and would have matched Ovechkin's trophy case if it weren't for the injury troubles he ran into. Even so, an Art Ross, a Rocket Richard, a Hart, a Lester B. Pearson, a Stanley Cup and an Olympic Gold Medal is nothing to sneeze at.

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10-29-2012, 04:55 AM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
That's great, but it still doesn't mean he was the better player. Crosby had equally impressive numbers and would have matched Ovechkin's trophy case if it weren't for the injury troubles he ran into. Even so, an Art Ross, a Rocket Richard, a Hart, a Lester B. Pearson, a Stanley Cup and an Olympic Gold Medal is nothing to sneeze at.
Nobody says Crosby's bad.

OK, we can look at it from the other point:
2005-6 - Ovechkin wins the Calder over Crosby.
2006-7 - Obviously a better year from Crosby: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson.
2007-8 - Ovechkin's answer: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson + Richard.
2008-9 - Both outscored by Malkin, but AO wins Hart, Pearson, Richard again. Playoff showdown is won by the Pens, but Ovy and Sid were probably equal (AO was the leading scorer, however). The Pens win the Cup.
2009-10 - Both outscored by Henrik and even tied in points (Ovechkin missed 10 games, but he's to blame mostly. Also a crazy +45). Ovechkin wins Lindsay.

We can say whatever we want, but Crosby only outplayed Ovechkin in one of their 1st 5 years. I think AO is by a little, but clearly ahead.

My post is indeed an opinion, but to say Ovechkin was never on Crosby's level is just silly.
And some guys even mention Stamkos...

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10-29-2012, 06:33 AM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
Nobody says Crosby's bad.

OK, we can look at it from the other point:
2005-6 - Ovechkin wins the Calder over Crosby.
2006-7 - Obviously a better year from Crosby: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson.
2007-8 - Ovechkin's answer: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson + Richard.
2008-9 - Both outscored by Malkin, but AO wins Hart, Pearson, Richard again. Playoff showdown is won by the Pens, but Ovy and Sid were probably equal (AO was the leading scorer, however). The Pens win the Cup.
2009-10 - Both outscored by Henrik and even tied in points (Ovechkin missed 10 games, but he's to blame mostly. Also a crazy +45). Ovechkin wins Lindsay.

We can say whatever we want, but Crosby only outplayed Ovechkin in one of their 1st 5 years. I think AO is by a little, but clearly ahead.

My post is indeed an opinion, but to say Ovechkin was never on Crosby's level is just silly.
And some guys even mention Stamkos...
It would have been interesting to see how different things would have been if Crosby played without any regard to playing responsible hockey or wasted time rounding out his game.

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10-29-2012, 07:45 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
How people dont get this? Prime=a time a player is at his best at what they do. And he isnt even close to being what he once was.He is past his prime and its extremely clear.Does not mean he is not a good player.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Airlines View Post
Ovechkin was never on a Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos level to begin with. He had one great season and a bunch of good ones, with a very mediocre one last year. Johnathan Cheechoo also had one great season.
This is completely false.

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10-29-2012, 07:48 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
It would have been interesting to see how different things would have been if Crosby played without any regard to playing responsible hockey or wasted time rounding out his game.
if crosby were allowed to wait at the red line for outlets while the "lesser" players did all the gruntwork, i'm sure he could've added to his already superior career PPG. let's also not forget that ovechkin's only scoring title was won in a year where crosby was hurt.

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10-29-2012, 08:53 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
if crosby were allowed to wait at the red line for outlets while the "lesser" players did all the gruntwork, i'm sure he could've added to his already superior career PPG. let's also not forget that ovechkin's only scoring title was won in a year where crosby was hurt.
Well, Ovechkin has outpaced Crosby in few years, so that statement is a bit faulty. It is not like Peak Ovechkin could not compete with Crosby.

But i do agree that Crosby would have somewhat better PPG without having to act on defensive end. I don't think it would be miles different but it would be higher no doubt.

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10-29-2012, 08:58 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
Nobody says Crosby's bad.

OK, we can look at it from the other point:
2005-6 - Ovechkin wins the Calder over Crosby.
2006-7 - Obviously a better year from Crosby: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson.
2007-8 - Ovechkin's answer: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson + Richard.
2008-9 - Both outscored by Malkin, but AO wins Hart, Pearson, Richard again. Playoff showdown is won by the Pens, but Ovy and Sid were probably equal (AO was the leading scorer, however). The Pens win the Cup.
2009-10 - Both outscored by Henrik and even tied in points (Ovechkin missed 10 games, but he's to blame mostly. Also a crazy +45). Ovechkin wins Lindsay.

We can say whatever we want, but Crosby only outplayed Ovechkin in one of their 1st 5 years. I think AO is by a little, but clearly ahead.

My post is indeed an opinion, but to say Ovechkin was never on Crosby's level is just silly.
And some guys even mention Stamkos...
I totally agree that saying Ovechkin wasn't on Crosby's level is silly, because he definitely was. I just don't think much, if anything, separated them during their first five seasons, but of course that's just my opinion. And as for the people bringing up Stamkos, just ignore it. I love Stamkos, but everyone who has watched hockey for longer than a year or two will know and remember that Ovechkin's first four seasons were easily better than Stamkos' first four.

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10-29-2012, 09:16 AM
  #223
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Ovie is still a very, very good player. Thing that really stinks is that all the top players, Crosby, Ovie, Malkin, Stamkos, etc. are all losing a year of their 'prime' to this garbage lockout.

It especially stinks for Ovie, who due to his birthday being three days too late lost out on the 2003 draft, then loses 2004-05 and now 2012-13 to lockouts. I really think he could have been one of the all time greats. Now I think he will just go down as one of the better left wings to play the game. As a fan of his, it is too bad.

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10-29-2012, 11:54 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
Nobody says Crosby's bad.

OK, we can look at it from the other point:
2005-6 - Ovechkin wins the Calder over Crosby.
2006-7 - Obviously a better year from Crosby: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson.
2007-8 - Ovechkin's answer: Art Ross, Hart, Pearson + Richard.
2008-9 - Both outscored by Malkin, but AO wins Hart, Pearson, Richard again. Playoff showdown is won by the Pens, but Ovy and Sid were probably equal (AO was the leading scorer, however). The Pens win the Cup.
2009-10 - Both outscored by Henrik and even tied in points (Ovechkin missed 10 games, but he's to blame mostly. Also a crazy +45). Ovechkin wins Lindsay.
Your stat lines don't show lots of details that are relevant. Such as games played/lost due to injury. Also when you compare year by year you also miss the fact that Crosby is 2 years younger. e.g. IN their rookie seasons compared, Sid was 18, OV 20. They were pretty even despite OV winning the calder.

IN 08/09, I give Sid the nod over OV. I mean he won the cup and pretty much put the team on his back to beat the caps.

In 09/10 they were about even, but Sid did win the richard.

In 10/11 was when Sid seemed to just be taking off, and OV declining.

The only year I think OV clearly takes the nod over Sid is 07-08 with that incredible 65 goal season. Unfortunately it's been a slow decline ever since.

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10-29-2012, 01:29 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by NewFang View Post
Your stat lines don't show lots of details that are relevant. Such as games played/lost due to injury. Also when you compare year by year you also miss the fact that Crosby is 2 years younger. e.g. IN their rookie seasons compared, Sid was 18, OV 20. They were pretty even despite OV winning the calder.

IN 08/09, I give Sid the nod over OV. I mean he won the cup and pretty much put the team on his back to beat the caps.

In 09/10 they were about even, but Sid did win the richard.

In 10/11 was when Sid seemed to just be taking off, and OV declining.

The only year I think OV clearly takes the nod over Sid is 07-08 with that incredible 65 goal season. Unfortunately it's been a slow decline ever since.

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