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Old
10-28-2012, 02:02 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
I would like to get Bog in EDM but not for Yak, Jets would have to add, I am not sure what but they would and it would not be just a bad prospect either.
So the Jets would have to add onto Bogo for a prospect who has yet to play an NHL game? Really...? I dont care who the prospect is, the Jets would be incurring too big of a risk.

But yes, the almighty Yakupov could easily fetch Bogo +

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10-28-2012, 03:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
I'd rather just keep Bogosian even it was for Duchene or Benn
It becomes harder to say no to Duchene, but I still would. Way too big of fan of Bogosian.

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10-28-2012, 05:53 PM
  #53
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You cannot be serious. You want a soon to be stud DMan AND a great defensive fwd prospect for yakupov? He hasn't even played in the NHL yet and he's already worth a franchise potential defenseman and good prospect(after watching him at the summit series or w/e it wax against the russians I'm expecting a Kesler like player out of Sutter).

No thanks. From the Oilers, for that deal, I'd expect one of the other three.
I don't care that Yakupov hasn't played a game in the NHL. There's no risk with a can't miss prospect. Who was the last 1st overall, star forward, who didn't turn out to be an NHL All-star. Yakupov broke Stamkos' goal scoring record in Sarnia, and has 8 goals and 10 ponits in 11 KHL games right now, as a teenager playing against men in arguably the best active pro league in the world right now. Dont give me the argument that he isn't worth anything because he hasn't played an NHL game. Neither has Nathan Mackinnon, but I bet you value that 1st overall pick pretty highly right now.

You're putting down and passing on Yak because all he is is potential right now. But so is Bogosian. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bogo (I even have his jersey), but this was the first year in his 4 year career that he started to show what he could become. I think Yakupov and Bogosian are pretty close in value.

As for Sutter, I hope he turns into something one day, but right now he's got 3 points and is a -10 in 14 WHL games. Where are you getting a future Ryan Kesler from that? I like him, but his ceiling would probably be a 3rd line centre. Not exactly a deal breaker.

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10-28-2012, 06:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jet Oil View Post
I don't care that Yakupov hasn't played a game in the NHL. There's no risk with a can't miss prospect. Who was the last 1st overall, star forward, who didn't turn out to be an NHL All-star. Yakupov broke Stamkos' goal scoring record in Sarnia, and has 8 goals and 10 ponits in 11 KHL games right now, as a teenager playing against men in arguably the best active pro league in the world right now. Dont give me the argument that he isn't worth anything because he hasn't played an NHL game. Neither has Nathan Mackinnon, but I bet you value that 1st overall pick pretty highly right now.

You're putting down and passing on Yak because all he is is potential right now. But so is Bogosian. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bogo (I even have his jersey), but this was the first year in his 4 year career that he started to show what he could become. I think Yakupov and Bogosian are pretty close in value.

As for Sutter, I hope he turns into something one day, but right now he's got 3 points and is a -10 in 14 WHL games. Where are you getting a future Ryan Kesler from that? I like him, but his ceiling would probably be a 3rd line centre. Not exactly a deal breaker.
You're strawman assumption has nothing to with that quote. Nobody mentioned he's worth nothing like you suggest. Most of us Jets fans would just rather keep him than trade him for Yakupov, not to mention adding to that.

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10-28-2012, 06:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jet Oil View Post
I don't care that Yakupov hasn't played a game in the NHL. There's no risk with a can't miss prospect. Who was the last 1st overall, star forward, who didn't turn out to be an NHL All-star. Yakupov broke Stamkos' goal scoring record in Sarnia, and has 8 goals and 10 ponits in 11 KHL games right now, as a teenager playing against men in arguably the best active pro league in the world right now. Dont give me the argument that he isn't worth anything because he hasn't played an NHL game. Neither has Nathan Mackinnon, but I bet you value that 1st overall pick pretty highly right now.

You're putting down and passing on Yak because all he is is potential right now. But so is Bogosian. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bogo (I even have his jersey), but this was the first year in his 4 year career that he started to show what he could become. I think Yakupov and Bogosian are pretty close in value.

As for Sutter, I hope he turns into something one day, but right now he's got 3 points and is a -10 in 14 WHL games. Where are you getting a future Ryan Kesler from that? I like him, but his ceiling would probably be a 3rd line centre. Not exactly a deal breaker.
Excellent post. The point about MacKinnon is spot on. I can't believe some posters are diminishing Yakupov's value because he "hasn't played an NHL game yet," as if his talent doesn't exist if it isn't witnessed on NHL ice. The guy has a shot and release that would already place him among the NHL elite, as well as blazing speed. There are numerous areas of his game that need work, but the kid can flat out play offence, and does so with a feisty nature.

I like Bogo a lot, but I wouldn't trade Yak for him for the same reason Jets fans claim to not be interested: we haven't seen the extent of Yakupov's talent yet.

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10-28-2012, 06:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jet Oil View Post
I don't care that Yakupov hasn't played a game in the NHL. There's no risk with a can't miss prospect. Who was the last 1st overall, star forward, who didn't turn out to be an NHL All-star. Yakupov broke Stamkos' goal scoring record in Sarnia, and has 8 goals and 10 ponits in 11 KHL games right now, as a teenager playing against men in arguably the best active pro league in the world right now. Dont give me the argument that he isn't worth anything because he hasn't played an NHL game. Neither has Nathan Mackinnon, but I bet you value that 1st overall pick pretty highly right now.

You're putting down and passing on Yak because all he is is potential right now. But so is Bogosian. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bogo (I even have his jersey), but this was the first year in his 4 year career that he started to show what he could become. I think Yakupov and Bogosian are pretty close in value.

As for Sutter, I hope he turns into something one day, but right now he's got 3 points and is a -10 in 14 WHL games. Where are you getting a future Ryan Kesler from that? I like him, but his ceiling would probably be a 3rd line centre. Not exactly a deal breaker.
But that doesn't mean that you trade the future of your Defense for him.

The NHL is also a lot more physical then the K is, where as that is a more skill based. So really you have no idea if his skill transfers or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have Yak, but I'd be unwilling to gut the team of its best Defenseman and then one if its good prospects to get him. It's not like he's Sidney Crosby or something.

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10-28-2012, 09:04 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
But that doesn't mean that you trade the future of your Defense for him.

The NHL is also a lot more physical then the K is, where as that is a more skill based. So really you have no idea if his skill transfers or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have Yak, but I'd be unwilling to gut the team of its best Defenseman and then one if its good prospects to get him. It's not like he's Sidney Crosby or something.
Alright, I see where you're coming from. Being from Winnipeg, I'm thrilled to have the Jets back, big fan. But I'm a lifelong Oilers fan to date, so I'd like to think i'm relatively unbiased when it comes to a deal between the 2 teams. Obviously because I feel like I'd be looking out for the best interest of both sides. With Enstrom and Buff locked up, a decent supporting cast, and Trouba on the way, I don't think losing Bogo would cripple the team. That said, I don't want to see Bogo traded. You're right, he is the future of this defense, great athlete, great person.

A future superstar goal scorer is tempting is all I'm saying. Winnipeg doesn't have that (unless you're REALLY high on Kane). Star power up front is what they're lacking. And if Yak could build some chemistry with Burmistrov or Scheifele, we could have a pretty decent top 6 going.

Again, not trying to justify either team trading away their young top pairing defenseman/first line scorer, all I'm saying is from a team need standpoint, it makes sense for both sides. And, in my opinion, the value is close.

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10-28-2012, 09:12 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
You're strawman assumption has nothing to with that quote. Nobody mentioned he's worth nothing like you suggest. Most of us Jets fans would just rather keep him than trade him for Yakupov, not to mention adding to that.
Trust me, I've got a man-crush on Bogosian too. I'm one of those Jets fans that want to see him stick around for a long time. All I'm saying is Yakupov is the kind of player that might be worth the gamble.

5 years down the road, when Bogo is a very solid #2 dman on a team that has Enstrom, Byfuglien, Trouba, Postma, and Stuart for support, defense will be the last of Winnipeg's worries. At that point, looking back, maybe trading him for a 40-50 goal scorer would look like it was a good idea. The Jets would still boast a defense in the top half of the league, while having some firepower at forward that could actually get them into the playoffs.

Almost any other player and I agree Bogo is untouchable, it needs to be someone that can be the future of the franchise.

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10-28-2012, 09:34 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Cheddabombs View Post
So the Jets would have to add onto Bogo for a prospect who has yet to play an NHL game? Really...? I dont care who the prospect is, the Jets would be incurring too big of a risk.

But yes, the almighty Yakupov could easily fetch Bogo +
You're seriously telling me you think Bogosian's value exceeds Yakupov's?

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10-28-2012, 09:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
You're seriously telling me you think Bogosian's value exceeds Yakupov's?
I would never trade Bogo for Yakupov straight up, I'd tell you that much. Please go ahead, list all the stats Yak has in other leagues, convince me he is a "cant miss" prospect. This has been said all too much in the past and has been proven wrong it's safe to say I would not trade a potential franchise Dman, who has already played solid in the NHL as it is, for a potential elite winger, who has done nothing in the NHL.

Am I saying Yakupov will be a bust? Obviously not that's insane. In a couple years a deal of Yakupov for Bogosian ++ might be much more reasonable. Until that point where Yakupov has proven his worth in the NHL, Bogosian + for Yakupov is insane in itself, IMO. At the end of the day these two players are the kind that will need to fetch an overpayment to be moved so discussing a trade regarding either of them is pointless.

Of course this is all rubbish to you, so my argument is moot. But by all means, laugh away at how you think my opinion is terribly wrong and rest assured I'll have a good laugh over yours.

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10-28-2012, 09:57 PM
  #61
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Only way we give you Bogo, is if you give us Yakupov, Hall and RNH, all we'll add if we have to is Kane

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10-28-2012, 10:09 PM
  #62
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Only way we give you Bogo, is if you give us Yakupov, Hall and RNH, all we'll add if we have to is Kane
Can we add Buff if they throw in Eberle and Schultz?

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10-28-2012, 10:47 PM
  #63
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Can we add Buff if they throw in Eberle and Schultz?
oh totally.

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10-28-2012, 11:09 PM
  #64
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Yakupov could be a franchise winger. However you don't build your organization around wingers. If he was a great center then I think the jets would be more interested
Jets need a #1 center. Not more skilled wingers

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10-28-2012, 11:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Cheddabombs View Post
I would never trade Bogo for Yakupov straight up, I'd tell you that much. Please go ahead, list all the stats Yak has in other leagues, convince me he is a "cant miss" prospect. This has been said all too much in the past and has been proven wrong it's safe to say I would not trade a potential franchise Dman, who has already played solid in the NHL as it is, for a potential elite winger, who has done nothing in the NHL.

Am I saying Yakupov will be a bust? Obviously not that's insane. In a couple years a deal of Yakupov for Bogosian ++ might be much more reasonable. Until that point where Yakupov has proven his worth in the NHL, Bogosian + for Yakupov is insane in itself, IMO. At the end of the day these two players are the kind that will need to fetch an overpayment to be moved so discussing a trade regarding either of them is pointless.

Of course this is all rubbish to you, so my argument is moot. But by all means, laugh away at how you think my opinion is terribly wrong and rest assured I'll have a good laugh over yours.
I picked yours because it makes the points.
______________________________________

A proven defense that projects to be a franchise D > a possible but unproven all-star winger.
Wpg. adding a "potential Selke winning 2 way center" to a "potential Norris winning defenseman" for a "potential elite winger" just doesn't make sense.
(The use of potential was to show how fans rate players. Bogo has @ least played while the only time Nail has seen a puck drop in an NHL game is as a spectator.)
_______________________________________
Jet Oil, if that's your idea of an unbiased trade I'd hate to see what you propose when you dislike the team the Oilers are trading with.

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10-29-2012, 12:38 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
I picked yours because it makes the points.
______________________________________

A proven defense that projects to be a franchise D > a possible but unproven all-star winger.
Wpg. adding a "potential Selke winning 2 way center" to a "potential Norris winning defenseman" for a "potential elite winger" just doesn't make sense.
(The use of potential was to show how fans rate players. Bogo has @ least played while the only time Nail has seen a puck drop in an NHL game is as a spectator.)
_______________________________________
Jet Oil, if that's your idea of an unbiased trade I'd hate to see what you propose when you dislike the team the Oilers are trading with.


You complain about the fact that Yak hasn't proven it in the NHL, yet you say Bogosian projects to be a franchise D...You even claim hes a potential Norris winning Dman, despite never having received a single Norris vote in his career... See the contradiction here? If you can project Bogosian's career there's no reason others can't project Yakupov's. NHL GMs do that kind of thing all the time.

Yakupov projects to be a far better forward than Bogo does as a dman. And I like Bogo a lot, as previously stated.

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10-29-2012, 12:42 AM
  #67
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You complain about the fact that Yak hasn't proven it in the NHL, yet you say Bogosian projects to be a franchise D...You even claim hes a potential Norris winning Dman, despite never having received a single Norris vote in his career... See the contradiction here? If you can project Bogosian's career there's no reason others can't project Yakupov's. NHL GMs do that kind of thing all the time.

Yakupov projects to be a far better forward than Bogo does as a dman. And I like Bogo a lot, as previously stated.
I think the highlight of his point is the fact that Bogo has already proven to be a solid #2 Dman for the Jets but still has the potential to become a franchise Dman. On the other hand, Yakupov has not proven he can be an elite winger in the NHL but he most definitely has the potential to be. At the very least Bogosian will top out at where he is at right now, but if we use the potential argument on Yakupov then it's hard to disregard Bogo's potential also.

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10-29-2012, 07:08 AM
  #68
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Yakupov could be a franchise winger. However you don't build your organization around wingers. If he was a great center then I think the jets would be more interested
Jets need a #1 center. Not more skilled wingers
This is the only aspect of a Bogosian for Yakupov deal that would give the Jets any reason to think twice.

Even if Yakupov ends up as the 2nd worst forward picked at #1 overall in the last decade it's still a no brainer for the Jets.

If it were actually offered, I cannot imagine the Jets actually turning it down.

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10-29-2012, 11:24 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
I picked yours because it makes the points.
______________________________________

A proven defense that projects to be a franchise D > a possible but unproven all-star winger.
Wpg. adding a "potential Selke winning 2 way center" to a "potential Norris winning defenseman" for a "potential elite winger" just doesn't make sense.
(The use of potential was to show how fans rate players. Bogo has @ least played while the only time Nail has seen a puck drop in an NHL game is as a spectator.)
_______________________________________
Jet Oil, if that's your idea of an unbiased trade I'd hate to see what you propose when you dislike the team the Oilers are trading with.
Oh lord is this outlandish or what. I love Bogosian as much as the next guy, but I at least understand his value and potential well. It's unreal how much Bogosian is actually overrated by a few Jets fans.

Let's clarify one thing here. Bogosian was all over the place before last season. One good season doesn't remove his previous 3 inconsistent seasons. I can't fathom how people ignore that. Yeah, I think he'll be a #1 defenseman too, outside shot at being a franchise defenseman. But when your history shows that you are mostly inconsistent, then you're not worth that potential.

Yakupov is also a little more then a "potential elite winger". He actually projects to franchise winger, at least easier then Bogosian does to a franchise defenseman. And if we're going off of potential so much, I think it's safe to assume(and I'm sure most sensible people will agree) that Yak has a higher ceiling then Bogosian.

Btw, who is this "potential Selke winning 2-way center" you're talking about? Burmistrov? Oh god. Once again, I'm very high on this kid as well, but take a ****ing step back. The way you're overrating players is ridiculous.

This post has so much bias and incorrect statements it was hard to take it serious from the get go.

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10-29-2012, 11:28 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
But that doesn't mean that you trade the future of your Defense for him.

The NHL is also a lot more physical then the K is, where as that is a more skill based. So really you have no idea if his skill transfers or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have Yak, but I'd be unwilling to gut the team of its best Defenseman and then one if its good prospects to get him. It's not like he's Sidney Crosby or something.
No, what he did in the OHL is what gives you an idea of how his game will transfer. A small 11 games in the KHL doesn't trump the 100+ games he played in the OHL. You're reaching with that argument.

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Alright, I see where you're coming from. Being from Winnipeg, I'm thrilled to have the Jets back, big fan. But I'm a lifelong Oilers fan to date, so I'd like to think i'm relatively unbiased when it comes to a deal between the 2 teams. Obviously because I feel like I'd be looking out for the best interest of both sides. With Enstrom and Buff locked up, a decent supporting cast, and Trouba on the way, I don't think losing Bogo would cripple the team. That said, I don't want to see Bogo traded. You're right, he is the future of this defense, great athlete, great person.

A future superstar goal scorer is tempting is all I'm saying. Winnipeg doesn't have that (unless you're REALLY high on Kane). Star power up front is what they're lacking. And if Yak could build some chemistry with Burmistrov or Scheifele, we could have a pretty decent top 6 going.

Again, not trying to justify either team trading away their young top pairing defenseman/first line scorer, all I'm saying is from a team need standpoint, it makes sense for both sides. And, in my opinion, the value is close.
30 goals as a 20 year old isn't exactly something to sneeze at, unless you're talking about someone of Yakupov's skill. But then how many teams even have a player of his caliber/potential. Not many.

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10-29-2012, 11:58 AM
  #71
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No, what he did in the OHL is what gives you an idea of how his game will transfer. A small 11 games in the KHL doesn't trump the 100+ games he played in the OHL. You're reaching with that argument.



30 goals as a 20 year old isn't exactly something to sneeze at, unless you're talking about someone of Yakupov's skill. But then how many teams even have a player of his caliber/potential. Not many.
OHL? Are you kidding me? I would hazard a guess that the K is a better measuring stick then the god damn OHL. Either way, drafting is a crap shoot, there is absolutely no way to tell if their skills will transfer or not. Yakupov could be the next Patrik Stefan for all we know...or he could get creamed by a headshot from Raffi Torres and not project to the same level that he once did. It has happened(Bergeron).

The fact is, you don't know for sure.

Granted Bogo has been inconsistent for the last few years, he has finally shown that he has "gotten it" at the elite level. It's also common knowledge that Defensemen develop differently then forwards, they also stay at peak performance for longer. Yakupov could very well begin to decline from his plateau at thirty, granted there are exceptions to every rule.

And as for the 2-way-selke whatever, I think he was talking about Sutter. I had said earlier that he would probably be a Ryan Kesler type of player, not as good production wise, but similar in style. The story grew from there.

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10-29-2012, 12:00 PM
  #72
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Everyone has a price tag, there r no unmovable players for sure. However I would turn down Yakupov for Bogo, as simple as that. It is not cuz of Nail hasn't played a game in NHL and I'm not going to enter whose potential is higher. Bottom line is you trading to get an assets to get your team better, make a PO and dream about winning the ultimate price. Look at Oilers they have Hall, Eberle, RNH, Gagner Paajravi and now Yakupov. All of them high to top-end prospects. When was the last time they made PO?
I would trade Bogo for a franchise center or top-end prospect center. Anything less would be rejected, not because Yakupov has less value as a player, cause wingers IMHO are least important in building franchise.
So if you name a team I would proly name you a return I would want, but don't get offended if I will want in return player you aren't willing to ship.
Chiarelli likes Bogo? No problem, let's start with Bergi heading back..
How is that?


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10-29-2012, 08:12 PM
  #73
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I'd love to have Bogosian. I think the time to trade for him was last year, it seemed like that last season in Atlanta people were a little down on him, and he may have been available for something less than an overpay. As he is now I can't see Winnipeg dealing him for anything short of a 1C or a truly elite prospect potential 1C. From the Flyers Couturier plus a pick (not a 1st, maybe a 3rd) is probably fair...but Flyers fans would say no to Couts period. It's so hard to deal young players like that, guys who are good already and who have upside, and upside that you can realistically see them achieving. Remember a young Chris Pronger netted Brendan Shanahan; that's the type of move you're talking about here. Not to say Bogo = Pronger, but at this stage of their careers it's a fair comparison.

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10-29-2012, 08:56 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Oh lord is this outlandish or what. I love Bogosian as much as the next guy, but I at least understand his value and potential well. It's unreal how much Bogosian is actually overrated by a few Jets fans.

Let's clarify one thing here. Bogosian was all over the place before last season. One good season doesn't remove his previous 3 inconsistent seasons. I can't fathom how people ignore that. Yeah, I think he'll be a #1 defenseman too, outside shot at being a franchise defenseman. But when your history shows that you are mostly inconsistent, then you're not worth that potential.

Yakupov is also a little more then a "potential elite winger". He actually projects to franchise winger, at least easier then Bogosian does to a franchise defenseman. And if we're going off of potential so much, I think it's safe to assume(and I'm sure most sensible people will agree) that Yak has a higher ceiling then Bogosian.

Btw, who is this "potential Selke winning 2-way center" you're talking about? Burmistrov? Oh god. Once again, I'm very high on this kid as well, but take a ****ing step back. The way you're overrating players is ridiculous.

This post has so much bias and incorrect statements it was hard to take it serious from the get go.
I was playing with the overused word "potential" . It wasn't really meant to be taken seriously. I'd better remember to use smilies to make it easier to catch that drift.
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Seriously, remember in his draft year Shea Weber was passed over for other D that supposedly had much more "potential". Being a higher pick doesn't guarantee a better player.
Daigle was quoted as hoping he was drafted 1st overall because nobody remembers who was drafted 2nd.
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The "potential Selke winning 2 way center" would be Lukas Sutter who was mentioned in a previous post to mine. If others can project what they hope onto Nail there's no reason I can't do the same.

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10-30-2012, 12:05 AM
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ps241
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The trade thread is tough because inevitably home town fans tend to overvalue their assets.

Maybe I am being a homer as well but Bogosian did win our Player elimination game this spring on our board (top valued asset by our posters). I realize Bogosian had consistency issues during his days in Atlanta but as a Jets season ticket holder I was not privy to that phase. what I did see this past year was our #1 shut down defender (IMHO) who often played with a bottom pairing asset like Stuie due to 79 lost man games to our top 4 D. coach Noel prefers to allocate his D groups where his # 1 unit is the offensive group. Toby and Buff were used whenever possible with O zone starts and with the top line, and the #2 unit Bogosian (stuart or Hainsey) were the shut down group that got the tough minutes and the D zone starts. I thought Zach was up for the challenge last year, Huddy did a great job mentoring and coaching and helped simplify Bogo's game and with that came increased confidence, increased minutes, and better results.

So while Bogosian played our tough minutes how did he do point production wise you ask? He had 30 points in 65 games which was good for top 30 in PPG average for defensman and the same as Subban, Doughty, and Seabrook. Zach did this while playing off the 2nd PP unit as well (behind Buff and Toby). A telling stat is that Bogo had 1.12 5v5 Pts/60 minutes which is very respectable for second pairing. translation to that stat is strip out the PP scoring and he was the 12th leading scoring defensman in the league.

Also important to note that at 21 he is a pup and his numbers line up favorably for his age with how Weber or Pronger were when they were 21 (not saying he'll hit that level but he is tracking along similar lines). Throw in that he is 6'3" 220 pounds, very physical, a great skater, and our most fit player and what's not to like?

The comparison style wise I think fits best is the one Ron McLean from Hockey night in Canada had which was a big Chris Chelios and I think that is spot on. they both have that effortless skate all day style.

Currently he sits in a pocket slightly below his high profile classmates (Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson) who are all off to pretty amazing starts for their age. I don't want to overrate him at this point but nor do I want to sell him short. I am not in favor of trading Bogosian, I am more than happy watching him come into his prime in a jets uniform and hopefully stay put until he is old and retires.

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