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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

View Poll Results: Ye or Na
Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
10-28-2012, 07:52 PM
  #101
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Nonis is getting a VERy high salary. Yes, easily the highest paid Asst. GM and more than some gms in the NHL.

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Old
10-28-2012, 07:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Seems JFJ is usually brought up by the whine and cheese club.
Posters bring up JFJs tenure because he was not only the 2nd worst GM in Leaf history but he was also the one directly responsible for the length of a rebuild needed at present to right his wrongs.
Hell some posters still bring up Gord Stellics tenure... That Courtnall trade was bullsh*t

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10-28-2012, 07:58 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
There isn't an argument anymore and polls like this shouldn't exist.

Factually, Burke has been flat out terrible and should be replaced. That is not an "opinion". That's a reasoned conclusion based entirely on facts.

Those that ignore facts and choose to believe what they want to believe (and not what has been proven as correct) are the only ones that will vote yes.

If somebody can look at the facts and conclude that Burke has done a good job, well, they've used spin. They've manipulated facts and reason to create an alternate reality.
So somebody that supports Burke does not interpret facts differently. They simply relied on spin instead of facts. That is a delusion, not an opinion.

In conclusion, there is no differing opinions about Burke.
There's those that factually agree that he's been a disaster.
And there's those who have created a delusional world based on spin and rhetoric.

Now that I've clarified the entire situation beyond rebuttal or argument, I don't believe threads like this need to exist anymore.
Remember... I have not offered my mere opinion here. I have offered a reasoned conclusion after careful examination of factual evidence.
Not sure if trolling but I'll bite. Everything Burke has done has been consistent with a rebuild. Have a little patience and you will see a pretty good Leaf team.

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Old
10-28-2012, 08:00 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
Posters bring up JFJs tenure because he was not only the 2nd worst GM in Leaf history but he was also the one directly responsible for the length of a rebuild needed at present to right his wrongs.
Hell some posters still bring up Gord Stellics tenure... That Courtnall trade was bullsh*t
Maybe the posters that keep bringing JFJ up should have told Burke this when he was first hired . BB has also done quite a bit to extend the length of this rebuild as well .

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10-28-2012, 08:06 PM
  #105
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My biggest beef with Burke has to do with his big mouth. He came in here and right away started talking a big game. He set himself up to be heavily criticized should the team not perform. If he came in and said, be patient, it takes time, then the past 4 seasons would be much easier to swallow for me.

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Old
10-28-2012, 08:19 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Maybe the posters that keep bringing JFJ up should have told Burke this when he was first hired . BB has also done quite a bit to extend the length of this rebuild as well .
..... What could have Burke done diffrent to shorten this rebuild and build the Leafs into cup contenders and a perennial playoff team? ......

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10-28-2012, 08:22 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Is it not the same as people who bring up rumors of what happened in Calgary, say they are fact, just to bash Dion?

You can't ignore how bad this team was when JFJ got canned. Just like people don't want to ignore rumors
I personally do not care what Dion did in Calgary....I do however care what he has done in Toronto and he has done plenty. He is not a well liked person in that dressing room. Wilson and Burke allowed him to be like he is.....Carlyle will not.


JFJ has nothing to do with Burke. I fail to see why it is used in any pro or con argument when discussing Burke. I judge Burke on his body of work since his arrival here, thus far he is not cutting it.

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Old
10-28-2012, 08:25 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
..... What could have Burke done diffrent to shorten this rebuild and build the Leafs into cup contenders and a perennial playoff team? ......
Don't call it a rebuild when Burke himself when he came in here did not want to call what he will do as a rebuild. So it has not worked according to his plan, so now it is conveniently can be called a rebuild?

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10-28-2012, 08:27 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Maybe the posters that keep bringing JFJ up should have told Burke this when he was first hired . BB has also done quite a bit to extend the length of this rebuild as well .
Such as? People claim his UFA are all busts. If that is the case, he hasn't hurt the rebuild. He hasn't traded a single one of the players he has picked. He's only traded one of the higher ceiling potential prospects he inherited and he did so from a position of strength for a 2nd overall. He's acquired more 1st rounders than any other GM over the past 4 years (if memory serves). He's gotten younger on most every trade. By "quite a bit" do you mean the Kessel trade, where basically he fell behind by one player? Or do you mean that he hasn't acquired a vet goalie yet (which would only serve to make our picks worse)?

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10-28-2012, 08:28 PM
  #110
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So as far as I can tell Burke is better than:

1. JFJ
2. Garth Snow
3. Scott Howson

Is there anyone else thats doing a worse job than Burke is right now? That makes Burke the 3rd Worst GM currently employed in the National Hockey League - and I can think of only one GM that has done a worse job post-lockout. Thats some ELITE company to be in.

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Old
10-28-2012, 08:31 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
Don't call it a rebuild when Burke himself when he came in here did not want to call what he will do as a rebuild. So it has not worked according to his plan, so now it is conveniently can be called a rebuild?
What are you the word police? What does it matter? Rebuild, retool, restructure.... The point is he has turned over the roster and the next two years will be telling when it comes to his tenure as the GM

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10-28-2012, 08:31 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
..... What could have Burke done diffrent to shorten this rebuild and build the Leafs into cup contenders and a perennial playoff team? ......
Burke could have done what Tallon did in Florida . Gut the team quickly freeing up cap space and loading up on picks and then start piecing together a solid hard working team while his prospects developed .

He could of also brought in a coach years ago who he shared the same philosophy he did .

Maybe he could have kept his firsts instead of going for a skilled sniper to build your team around .

He could have done multiple things but instead he built a soft defensivly inept team with poor goaltending and a avg at best prospect pool .

Also the goal isn't just to build a playoff team but to build a perinial contender .


Last edited by hotpaws: 10-28-2012 at 08:48 PM.
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Old
10-28-2012, 08:47 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Such as? People claim his UFA are all busts. If that is the case, he hasn't hurt the rebuild. He hasn't traded a single one of the players he has picked. He's only traded one of the higher ceiling potential prospects he inherited and he did so from a position of strength for a 2nd overall. He's acquired more 1st rounders than any other GM over the past 4 years (if memory serves). He's gotten younger on most every trade. By "quite a bit" do you mean the Kessel trade, where basically he fell behind by one player? Or do you mean that he hasn't acquired a vet goalie yet (which would only serve to make our picks worse)?
Most of his UFA's are busts , it's not a calim it's a fact .

When posters like you have to resort to out and out lying to defend Burke it just proves how poor a job he's done .

Where a prospect was picked has little bearing on his value years after he was drafted yet i continually read how many 1sts Burke has traded for . Did the Sens trade a 3rd rounder for the 6th overall pick or did the Sens trade a 3rd rounder for a prospect who's value had dropped , most reasonable people without an agenda believe the Sens traded for a failing prospect but i guess in your opinion they moved up from the 3rd round to the 6th overall pick .

The team got younger but who gives a damn if you still have to replace the players he brought in ? You and others keep bringing up age like it's some great achievment . Make me gm and i'll promise you an avg age of 24 in 2years . Would being the youngest team in the league by far get you all excited about our future and get me an extension ?

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Old
10-28-2012, 08:56 PM
  #114
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Changing a GM won't magically make things better for this team.

We have a smart hockey person as our GM, he hasn't met everyone's standards but he has a plan in place. I'd rather stick with him and see how his plan works out in the long term like Glen Sather in New York. This team has been a revolving door for GM's and I think it needs to stick to one to get this team an identity again, Brian Burke is a good enough GM to stick with the long term to see his potential progress.

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Old
10-28-2012, 09:23 PM
  #115
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Many posters here have said that Burke has greatly improved our prospects. I have always wondered a bit about this. We always overrate our current prospects. But maybe he really has restocked our cupboards.

But when I look back at the 2008 HF team prospects ranking I see we were ranked 17th in the league. In the most recent HF rankings we are 18th. Can anyone explain to me why it seems be be generally accepted that Burke has vastly improved our prospect pool but HF thinks we have slipped (one spot) in the rankings.

I guess the current rankings were before the draft.
But
1) All last season many people were claiming our prospects were already much better.
2) Did adding Reilly (and our other picks) really improve us that much?

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Old
10-28-2012, 09:38 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
It's actually quite sad the number of posters who have to bring up JFJ to defend Burkes tenure here .
You should read the quote I responded to. Indeed, it's pretty sad when some people try to make a point by saying that JFJ's had a better team than Burke did in TO. Talk about spin doctoring.

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10-28-2012, 09:44 PM
  #117
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\
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
Many posters here have said that Burke has greatly improved our prospects. I have always wondered a bit about this. We always overrate our current prospects. But maybe he really has restocked our cupboards.

But when I look back at the 2008 HF team prospects ranking I see we were ranked 17th in the league. In the most recent HF rankings we are 18th. Can anyone explain to me why it seems be be generally accepted that Burke has vastly improved our prospect pool but HF thinks we have slipped (one spot) in the rankings.

I guess the current rankings were before the draft.
But
1) All last season many people were claiming our prospects were already much better.
2) Did adding Reilly (and our other picks) really improve us that much?
Congratulations You've just debunked one of the MANY myths perpetrated around here by Burke supporters.

Outside of Reilly we have no elite Talent - similar to the crop of players we had way back when.

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10-28-2012, 09:53 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
You should read the quote I responded to. Indeed, it's pretty sad when some people try to make a point by saying that JFJ's had a better team than Burke did in TO. Talk about spin doctoring.
Burke took over the 7tth worst team and now we're the 5th worst . That's a fact that needs no spin .

If you want to argue that the team might be better in the future if we gives Burke an endless numbers of years to build that's fine but the same could be siad for JFJ could it not .

Let's be honest , it doesn't take a genuis to bottom out and draft elite prospects but it does take a complete idiot to bottom out aftter he's traded the picks .

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10-28-2012, 10:18 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by iiuh View Post
Not sure if trolling but I'll bite. Everything Burke has done has been consistent with a rebuild. Have a little patience and you will see a pretty good Leaf team.
...and I like the Maple Leafs. They remind me of me.
Inconsistent, fragile, and internationally reviled.

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10-28-2012, 10:23 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
...and I like the Maple Leafs. They remind me of me.
Inconsistent, fragile, and internationally reviled.
I think it's time to break out the Goose !

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10-28-2012, 10:23 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
\


Congratulations You've just debunked one of the MANY myths perpetrated around here by Burke supporters.

Outside of Reilly we have no elite Talent - similar to the crop of players we had way back when.
funny thing is Burke thought he had a playoff team going into last season, it was only because of the teams complete failure which Burke is respondsible for do we even have Rielly. so I'm not even really sure why people bring Rielly up as a positive, since the only reason we have Rielly is because of Burkes incompetence in the first place.

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Old
10-28-2012, 10:28 PM
  #122
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One more season if it was my call. I am not convinced that a new GM would receive different marching orders from the powers that be. I am not sure what would have to occur for the Leafs to be allowed to play the kids all the way, but anyone who thinks the club would begin a tear down rebuild as soon as BB leaves is likely to be disappointed.

They have added enough vets I think a playoff push is expected no matter who is in the big chair. The biggest change a new GM might get to do is maybe goaltending assuming he doesn't inherit Luongo. I think the only way they can add another star is by FA and there has to be someone available for that. Not making excuses for him, but now that Wilson is finally gone I am not seeing an obvious solution if they don't start winning a lot more.

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10-28-2012, 10:39 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
You know... after a few of these threads, you start noticing a pattern. The voting in the poll is always a landslide in favor of Burke, yet the posts seem as if it's a 50/50 split. You begin to notice that it's the same few people arguing against him every single time. The people making pro Burke remarks and the level of detail they go into is the only real difference.

In my opinion, I think the general feeling in Leafs Nation is that while people had hoped for quicker results, they realize that things are moving ahead in the right direction.
A current argument by Burke supporters is that JFJ left him with a shambles of a team.

Well, I've been looking at this thread about JFJ from 2007. His last season.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...light=ferguson

The thread is REMARKABLY similar to this thread.
There's many people who accepted the facts and are utterly opposed to JFJ... and then there's those that spun and manipulated the facts in pathetic efforts to defend JFJ.

I honestly think everyone here should read that thread for perspective.

There seems to be an inability to rationally assess current GM's. But once the GM is fired, he's immediately made into a scapegoat for the next GM.

It's a VERY obvious trend that leaf nation has been doing.

Instead of following this trend, we should assess our GM's with facts, not spin.

Once you assess both JFJ and Burke with FACTS, you can see that they were/are terrible.
It's easy to use spin to defend factually terrible GM's. These two threads are proof of that.
But I have to say, it is very frustrating for the rational fans that assess our GM's based on facts and statistics as opposed to spin.

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:08 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
A current argument by Burke supporters is that JFJ left him with a shambles of a team.

Well, I've been looking at this thread about JFJ from 2007. His last season.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...light=ferguson

The thread is REMARKABLY similar to this thread.
There's many people who accepted the facts and are utterly opposed to JFJ... and then there's those that spun and manipulated the facts in pathetic efforts to defend JFJ.

I honestly think everyone here should read that thread for perspective.

There seems to be an inability to rationally assess current GM's. But once the GM is fired, he's immediately made into a scapegoat for the next GM.

It's a VERY obvious trend that leaf nation has been doing.

Instead of following this trend, we should assess our GM's with facts, not spin.

Once you assess both JFJ and Burke with FACTS, you can see that they were/are terrible.
It's easy to use spin to defend factually terrible GM's. These two threads are proof of that.
But I have to say, it is very frustrating for the rational fans that assess our GM's based on facts and statistics as opposed to spin.
Wow! "Anti-JFJ" is a term thrown around a few times by some of the same posters who throw the guy under the bus regularly these days. Those that support Burke today are likely to turn on him within a week of his firing.

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:10 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Burke took over the 7tth worst team and now we're the 5th worst . That's a fact that needs no spin .

If you want to argue that the team might be better in the future if we gives Burke an endless numbers of years to build that's fine but the same could be siad for JFJ could it not .

Let's be honest , it doesn't take a genuis to bottom out and draft elite prospects but it does take a complete idiot to bottom out aftter he's traded the picks .
**** happens. Noone expected the Leafs to bottom out that year with the additions in the offseason. At least we got a great player in return for that pick, who is still the best player in the deal by a fair margin (on a crappy team). Could have been a lot worse, we could have gotten another Toskala in return for 3 picks.

It's time to stop living in the past and look towards the future.

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