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Hamilton Bulldogs [10-15-3] & Wheeling Nailers 2012-2013 2.0

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10-28-2012, 12:27 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Would be a nice change of pace, at least just to see what Avtsin has left to show.

Stortini has been worse than useless.
Avtsin would be more useless than Stortini on a 4 line

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10-28-2012, 12:41 PM
  #77
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Avtsin would be more useless than Stortini on a 4 line
I doubt it. A 4th line isn't really a place for someone like Avtsin, but at least he wouldn't be taking dumbass penalties like Stortini despite such a small amount of minutes.

At least with avtsin, if you need to send a message, you can insert him somewhere else in the lineup for a shift or two.

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10-28-2012, 12:43 PM
  #78
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Avtsin would be more useless than Stortini on a 4 line
In reality, of course. In a development league, you need to know way more what Avtsin can give you than Stortini. Of course, you'll say that you also need to put Avtsin in a situation to succeed. It would be better. But if you can't, if he somewhat looks fine, you will then be more tempted to make him a top 9 or even top 6 player if he can work his way up.

And you can also play him in the 4th AND with some PP time. Not like the PP is actually doing great, would be nice to have some natural talent in it.

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10-28-2012, 12:57 PM
  #79
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Does anybody know whats the story with avtsin? Has he played yet and if not how come. Hes not even listed as being on the dogs from what I can see. It's about time he plays, its been what, 3 years!! They seem to treat this guy in a funny way, not like other prospects. Surely hes ready to play for the dogs after this lobg.
He's healthy, just can't crack the lineup. It's telling that the coaching staff will go with Berger tonight, if indeed that ends up being the case, over Avtsin, as neither has yet to dress in a regular season game this season. But it appears the staff think more highly of the more inexperienced Berger. Avtsin was terrible last year, but perhaps if Berger doesn't play well tonight, Avtsin will get a shot next game.

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10-28-2012, 01:05 PM
  #80
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He's healthy, just can't crack the lineup. It's telling that the coaching staff will go with Berger tonight, if indeed that ends up being the case, over Avtsin, as neither has yet to dress in a regular season game this season. But it appears the staff think more highly of the more inexperienced Berger. Avtsin was terrible last year, but perhaps if Berger doesn't play well tonight, Avtsin will get a shot next game.
Avtsin needs an environment that will give him the confidence he needs and the time to put it all together. If it's not here, sign whatever agreement so he'd find a place somewhere else.

The ideal would be in Wheeling. But the fact that he's not there already shows that in reality, it's AHL or Russia for him and they might be hesitant in letting him go.

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10-28-2012, 01:24 PM
  #81
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On a AHL level, the easy thing is to portrait Nash in a top 6. Was there before, has to be more prepared than most of our rookies. Yet, in a development year, and with the quality that we have, I prefer to see others take those spots. Yet again, like I said, I hope everybody gets their turn, and that's including Nash.



It's actually a good example as far as player you look at, find he has everything to be a good hockey player, and for whatever reason, can't put it all together. Though in Wyman's case, he might have finally, with some confidence, found a spot in a bottom 6 role in the NHL. Problem now with that comparison is that I found Wyman more willing to use his body than Quailer except for the protect the puck part. And it's also tough to know what Quailer is all about just yet based on the 1 full year he missed. This is incredibly big and especially for a NCAA player. They already don't play a lot of games, and then you miss a season? Awful. He somewhat came back strong. His goal scoring ability is really questionable though as he looks much more like a passer. Reason why I'd see this guy as a centerman.



Gauthier did have his good moments. And while we have to give him the credit for those trades, I reserve the right to think that from Bournival to Holland, than god to Timmins and Co for their reports. But we should also be careful before calling it winners already. As we speak, what we gave already play in this league....and what we got in return besides those 2 guys....we want to ship it far far away....I always was a big Bournival fan and still is. Do think he does have NHL potential. I still believe it remains to be seen for Holland. I'd like to see more speed, more strenght from Holland if he wants to make it. But at this level, he's surely a fun player to watch that makes us believe we might have something great in our hands. Going back to Gauthier, while asking for his head, I ALSO KEPT saying that you often see the job of a GM AFTER you fired him. But for that to happen....you actually have to fire him. And frankly, after seeing how the management operates now as far as evaluation of players and the whole philosophy, thank god we did. Doesn't mean that he didn't make 1 good trade though....and both of those 2 might be 2 good ones. We are still at the "might" stage though.



Not sure the worries ESPECIALLY since we had already an idea of how he operates. People were extremely worried after his 1st OHL season. And then were fine after. At worst, he will probably be better just next year. Yet, with what I see, I already find him more at ease in that start of the season in the AHL than he was at the start of the season in his first OHL season. This has to be reassuring. But then, let,s put everything in perspective here. I doubt that this time, like some other times, we went with the BPA here. We clearly went with the needs. Tinordi was never seen as a gamechanging player. He was alreayd seen as a steady stay-at-home tough d-man to play against. But nothing more. There was already tons of question marks as far as his skating and puck skills are concerned. That to me is a lot for a 1st round. Though not the greatest of draft year, there was still something else to do here and we will come up with "We should have drafted him" soon enough. Yet, Tinordi is CLEARLY a guy that might reach the NHL and be very helpful. But not like a go-to-guy. And guys like him, do take some time to develop. So no need to worry just yet. Worry if he doesn't develop in his 2nd year. Tinordi was not chosen so he'd play in the NHL in his 2nd year. Was taken for the safe selection he was, which often means 4 or 5 years before reaching the pros. But while there, should be valuable.
Does that mean we should blame the proscouts for the bad trades and not Gauthier? That's what I never understood. When it's a good trade it's because of the scouts, whether pro, amateur or international, but when it's a bad trade, its the GM's fault.

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10-28-2012, 01:38 PM
  #82
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Does that mean we should blame the proscouts for the bad trades and not Gauthier? That's what I never understood. When it's a good trade it's because of the scouts, whether pro, amateur or international, but when it's a bad trade, its the GM's fault.
No. Gauthier should have "some" of the merit for getting whether it's a pick in one case, or accepting to do the trade. But with the trades, comes the recommendation of his pro scout or scout. And it's probably, most likely, the head scout or whoever in the scouting departement that tells Gauthier who to aim for. So everybody should have some merit. Just that some will solely give it to the GM which makes no sense for me 'cause some GM's have no freakin idea who sometiems they are acquiring. Though I will never give Gauthier or whoever the merit for Timmins drafting. Just like I will never criticize them for it either. I mean, Houle was probably one of the worst GM in the history of sport. And yet, he probably has the best if not the top 3 best drafts in our history. Sorry, but that can't be because of him. If anything, we have to salute André Savard for bringing Timmins on board. And if you want, thank Gainey for keeping Timmins. But does Gauthier should be recognize for keeping him? Wasn't it obvious already that he was good? So good job for getting something for O'Byrne. I mean, everybody would have though. And good job recognizing that Cammalleri was worth a little more than just Bourque despite his salary.

In the end, yes, it ends and finishes with the GM. As far as I'M concerned, and for a whole lot of years, we haven't been on top of the good trades. Most likely the opposite. But we have had a few good ones. Those 2 "might" be amongst them. And Gauthier will have his share of recognition the day those guys are playing a key role.

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10-28-2012, 01:43 PM
  #83
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Does that mean we should blame the proscouts for the bad trades and not Gauthier? That's what I never understood. When it's a good trade it's because of the scouts, whether pro, amateur or international, but when it's a bad trade, its the GM's fault.
If it is bad blame Gauthier, if it is good it was all Gainey and Timmins. Welcome to hfboards Montreal, where GM's actually have no idea what they are doing and don't follow hockey.

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10-28-2012, 01:51 PM
  #84
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If it is bad blame Gauthier, if it is good it was all Gainey and Timmins. Welcome to hfboards Montreal, where GM's actually have no idea what they are doing and don't follow hockey.
I know you are a big Gauthier fan, but come on. If there's one guy who also was criticize a whole lot it's Gainey.

GM and Co's know what they're doing. Guess what...coaches also? Yet, it's a sport where professionnals like that are fired every 3 years, especially coaches. And GM's, well maybe they should be fired earlier. Do you think Scott Howson still deserve to keep his job? And if you think it's solely HF Montreal...well you haven't went anywhere else...

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10-28-2012, 01:54 PM
  #85
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Does that mean we should blame the proscouts for the bad trades and not Gauthier? That's what I never understood. When it's a good trade it's because of the scouts, whether pro, amateur or international, but when it's a bad trade, its the GM's fault.
Gauthier made the trade. Not Timmins. As much as Timmins had a say, the final decision was Gauthier's. It's rarely a one man show even though the media liked to think Gauthier made all the decisions by himself.

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10-28-2012, 02:05 PM
  #86
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I know you are a big Gauthier fan, but come on. If there's one guy who also was criticize a whole lot it's Gainey.

GM and Co's know what they're doing. Guess what...coaches also? Yet, it's a sport where professionnals like that are fired every 3 years, especially coaches. And GM's, well maybe they should be fired earlier. Do you think Scott Howson still deserve to keep his job? And if you think it's solely HF Montreal...well you haven't went anywhere else...
Tell me this, is Scott Howson hated because he is a vegetarian?

The bias on these boards is ludicrous and downright embarrassing. I have had conversations with other hab fans in person and the ones that parrot the same gauthier hatred can't give even a half decent reason as to why. Really makes us look bad as a whole.

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10-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #87
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In reality, of course. In a development league, you need to know way more what Avtsin can give you than Stortini. Of course, you'll say that you also need to put Avtsin in a situation to succeed. It would be better. But if you can't, if he somewhat looks fine, you will then be more tempted to make him a top 9 or even top 6 player if he can work his way up.

And you can also play him in the 4th AND with some PP time. Not like the PP is actually doing great, would be nice to have some natural talent in it.
yeah, but you also need some sandpaper and with Hagel and Sortini out, I think its not the way to go....

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10-28-2012, 02:20 PM
  #88
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yeah, but you also need some sandpaper and with Hagel and Sortini out, I think its not the way to go....
Stortini hasn't provided anything, except the wrong kind of PIMS. Hagel has provided an outlet for some other team's bruiser's daddy issues.

You can say the words 'grit', 'sandpaper', 'truculence' all you want, but if Hamilton has had any of that the last few games, it hasn't come from those two.

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10-28-2012, 02:42 PM
  #89
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Stortini hasn't provided anything, except the wrong kind of PIMS. Hagel has provided an outlet for some other team's bruiser's daddy issues.

You can say the words 'grit', 'sandpaper', 'truculence' all you want, but if Hamilton has had any of that the last few games, it hasn't come from those two.
and it hasn't come from all the other player to except maybe Dumont who play with heart and passion. Thats why I said that the bulldog where soft but I was in minority when I said that.


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10-28-2012, 04:58 PM
  #90
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I am watching todays game on TVA.
i am totally disappointed in the Hamilton Fans.
NHL on lock and all you can do is maybe 2-3 thousand at the game.
today, put this game in Laval Quebec and you have 8-10 thousand at the game

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10-28-2012, 05:12 PM
  #91
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I am watching todays game on TVA.
i am totally disappointed in the Hamilton Fans.
NHL on lock and all you can do is maybe 2-3 thousand at the game.
today, put this game in Laval Quebec and you have 8-10 thousand at the game
Well it's in Leaf country. If the Marlies were based in my home town I wouldn't support them.

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10-28-2012, 06:33 PM
  #92
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People in leaf country arent real hockey fans. Just leafs fans.

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10-28-2012, 07:18 PM
  #93
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I am watching todays game on TVA.
i am totally disappointed in the Hamilton Fans.
NHL on lock and all you can do is maybe 2-3 thousand at the game.
today, put this game in Laval Quebec and you have 8-10 thousand at the game
its also a late Sunday afternoon game.

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10-28-2012, 08:43 PM
  #94
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Does that mean we should blame the proscouts for the bad trades and not Gauthier? That's what I never understood. When it's a good trade it's because of the scouts, whether pro, amateur or international, but when it's a bad trade, its the GM's fault.
Actually why not give them blame, I'm sure the head Pro Scout would have had a say in the process. You'd be amused when you look up who last held the role of Director of Professional Scouting pre house cleaning.

In terms of Bournival, I can't find the direct link to the Timmins interview after the trade right now but here's some posts on how Timmins/scouts liked him in the original trade thread -

Whitesnake post alluding to Gauthier saying he didn't know much about Bournival: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...s#post28898480

The rest: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/se...rchid=18169581

It's not really a revelation that amateur level talent expertise usually go to the people who scout them as their full time jobs. Just like in drafting, I don't think finding amateur level gems in trades is something the GM should take credit for in finding. I mean more often than not, these prospect may have been someone high on their list that was taken before they had a chance to grab them. Heck if Greg Pateryn ends up a decent top 4 D no one will credit Gainey, and they rightfully so, for plucking him out of the Leafs prospect pool...it is highly likely that similar to Holland and Bournival, Timmins was behind that decision.

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10-28-2012, 09:22 PM
  #95
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Missed the GDT so I'm putting my thoughts on the game today in here. I thought the team as a whole played very well. They looked like a team, and even though the play wasn't spectacular, they got the job done.

Let's see...the CHL Line wasn't quite as dynamic as the other day. Bournival played a good game, Gallagher didn't seem to get much going at I didn't notice Holland much at all. Quailer was all right, again, nothing really stood out. Palushaj, despite scoring a goal, was bad - too many turnovers and not enough offense being generated. Geoffrion was by far the best Hamilton forward, but he's an enigma - he has games where he looks lost and weak, and games like today where he scores on an NHL-caliber wrister and feeds Palushaj an NHL slap-pass. So who knows. Nattinen looked more comfortable, Berger did a decent job on the forecheck, Stortini was useless.

On defense, I thought everyone played well. If I had to choose a weak link, it would probably be Ellis - a couple of turnovers, but nothing too egregious. Nash looked good for a first game. Tinordi played really well and had a beauty of a hit on Baertschi. Pateryn was also good but has a habit of rushing the puck out in front of his goalie that puts me on edge - hasn't burned him yet though. Beaulieu was less noticeable but played a solid game defensively. FSD had some good and some not-so-good plays at both ends.

Mayer looked solid and had a game-saving stop near the end of the game. He wasn't terribly busy as the Heat never got much going, but was good when called upon.

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10-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #96
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Actually why not give them blame, I'm sure the head Pro Scout would have had a say in the process. You'd be amused when you look up who last held the role of Director of Professional Scouting pre house cleaning.

In terms of Bournival, I can't find the direct link to the Timmins interview after the trade right now but here's some posts on how Timmins/scouts liked him in the original trade thread -

Whitesnake post alluding to Gauthier saying he didn't know much about Bournival: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...s#post28898480

The rest: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/se...rchid=18169581

It's not really a revelation that amateur level talent expertise usually go to the people who scout them as their full time jobs. Just like in drafting, I don't think finding amateur level gems in trades is something the GM should take credit for in finding. I mean more often than not, these prospect may have been someone high on their list that was taken before they had a chance to grab them. Heck if Greg Pateryn ends up a decent top 4 D no one will credit Gainey, and they rightfully so, for plucking him out of the Leafs prospect pool...it is highly likely that similar to Holland and Bournival, Timmins was behind that decision.
Thanks for the find. If I said "admitted", I wasn't BS'ing. I either heard it directly or read it, though I don't remember which one. Yet, again, we have to salute him for convincing the AVs GM that O'Byrne was worth more than a 7th rounder. But Bournival himself, that's solely Timmins work. Same with Pateryn.

And people, it does go both ways. We call Gainey a genius for his great Rivet for Gorges and 1st trade. Great. It is indeed a great trade. But then people have it wrong when they say that it's a great trade by Gainey 'cause the trade is Rivet for Gorges AND Pacioretty. No. The 1st is Gainey. Pacioretty is Timmins. 'Cause if we go for Patrick White, Gainey STILL traded for a 1st....but we would have just miss the boat. And guess what? Gainey would NOT have been blamed for not getting Pacioretty.....Timmins would. But Gainey would have done his job.

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10-28-2012, 10:11 PM
  #97
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Thanks for the find. If I said "admitted", I wasn't BS'ing. I either heard it directly or read it, though I don't remember which one. Yet, again, we have to salute him for convincing the AVs GM that O'Byrne was worth more than a 7th rounder. But Bournival himself, that's solely Timmins work. Same with Pateryn.

And people, it does go both ways. We call Gainey a genius for his great Rivet for Gorges and 1st trade. Great. It is indeed a great trade. But then people have it wrong when they say that it's a great trade by Gainey 'cause the trade is Rivet for Gorges AND Pacioretty. No. The 1st is Gainey. Pacioretty is Timmins. 'Cause if we go for Patrick White, Gainey STILL traded for a 1st....but we would have just miss the boat. And guess what? Gainey would NOT have been blamed for not getting Pacioretty.....Timmins would. But Gainey would have done his job.
I agree with your point but there's a little flaw with your example

GMs actually have a big say on the 1st pick when drafting

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10-28-2012, 10:22 PM
  #98
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The bias on these boards is ludicrous and downright embarrassing. I have had conversations with other hab fans in person and the ones that parrot the same gauthier hatred can't give even a half decent reason as to why. Really makes us look bad as a whole.
See, the supposed biased opinions has to start from somewhere. So which is it? He injured people on this board with his car? He's ugly hence we judge with how beautiful people are? Which is it? You think that if he would have build a tremendous team, we would have found out a way to blame him? He gives us a cup and we as a whole would have bashed him? And if the answer is yet as far as you're concerned, which makes no sense, but let's pretend it is, I can tell you, again, that "us" do not look bad. I've read the Bruins board once in a while, and the year before, during and after the Cup most of them have maybe fired Chiarelli and Julien 5 times a year. And there are other examples.

But half decent reason why? Well how about.....his trade record isn't in the win column? His overall work has not made us a better team? His last year at work was probably one of the worst improvisation job since the Houle days.

At best, the bias opinions aren't AGAINST Gauthier. They were FOR Gainey 'cause of the legend he was. And that, I will agree with you. I didn't like Gainey's job either. I'm able to separate player from the administration. Some can't. Loved Carbonneau as a player, he was actually a model to me when I was playing. My nickname was Little Carbo. Yet, I hated him as a coach. Loved Lafleur as a player, top 3 that I've seen in my lifetime, yet....he's not the greatest at analysing the game to say the least. I can totally live without his opinions as this is not what made him the legend he is today and son on.

Gainey wasn't good enough. Gauthier wasn't good enough. Yet, they both made good moves. But not enough. Time to move on. And I prefer this new teamwork philosophy where everything doesn't seem to be neglected compared to the one-man show that Gauthier seems to love running. That's my type of administration. Yet, if we would have won the Cup, I wouldn't care about his type. But losing and handling a team the way he did....sorry but what's to love aside from 2, 3 or even a few more good moves. We could go on for every GM, bad to worst, and still find 2 or 3 good moves. Or maybe even more. Doesn't make them valuable hence they all lost their job one day or the other.

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yeah, but you also need some sandpaper and with Hagel and Sortini out, I think its not the way to go....
Sorry, but a tough guy who doesn't play tough is not exactly the way to go either. Find with truculence and fighting, but found the guys who do. Not the ones who pretend doing it. And sorry, but even the names aren't scary enough to just be in the lineup. Nobody is afraid of Stortini or nobody else. So maybe and surely we should have added some toughness, but not what it looks like it now. And it can't be detrimental to the development either. We are not the Chicago Wolves. Or even the Heat. I mean, it was funny to hear Pedneault and Langevin today saying that the Habs and Flames don,t share the same philosophy as the Heat having more vets and all....euh.....hello? Not about philosophy.....it's about the Flames sucking at drafting......and having to fill a lineup.

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10-28-2012, 10:30 PM
  #99
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I agree with your point but there's a little flaw with your example

GMs actually have a big say on the 1st pick when drafting
They do? Are you talking about the big say like Gainey one draft told Timmins...."Are you sure"???? Is that what a big say looks like? GM's have no idea who the players are and that's even if they saw them play 1 or 2 times. And especially not in Montreal with a guy like Timmins when any GM know he can totally give that job to Trevor and not worry about it. Personnally, I have a harder time with his 1st rounders but seems to me, nobody in Habsland have any problems whatsoever. So no, they don't have a big say.

The word is that with Gainey, Timmins and Co were having a list from 1 to whatever and were going with that list, usually picking it in order of who was left. Under Gauthier, he prefered to see Timmins going with "groups" of prospects instead of 1 to 100 listing. But then when it was time to pick, they'd had to talk amongst themselves, implicate the GM all you want, the decision remained fully in the head scout hands and his scouts as well as the GM probably never saw 3/4 of the players picked. And you knew it with Gauthier when Mr. Do-it-all, was the one answering the questions after the draft about the prospects ,cause he couldn't envision seeing Timmins getting all the recognition, and Gauthier answers were always "Well the scouts tells us that Mr. this and Mr. That does this and that. I have rarely heard Gauthier talking about a prospects as if he had any knowledge of who he was. Hey maybe I'm wrong, and he did found a way to see some prospects play....like I said, 1 or 2 times, maybe the possible 1st rounders....but that doesn't make him a decision maker as much as the guys who has seen those prospects 10 to 20 times.

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10-28-2012, 11:47 PM
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Chris Cutter
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Just finished watching today's game. The Bulldogs have been doing a solid job limiting the opposite team's shots this weekend, gotta give credits to the coaching staff and the defense in general for that. I thought the veterans in majority stepped up their game today. I felt that Geoffrion who hadn't been doing much so far was today's best player for Hamilton. He was making things happen in the offensive zone (he got a goal and an assist) and was back-checking hard. Boyce played an honest game and made some nice plays to make sure that the Bulldogs would keep their lead. Nash played much better than the last game I saw of him, did he have a more offensive role in his rookie season two years ago? He has a decent shot and some good passing to go with it. Can I know how Stortini played so many games in the NHL? He's so garbage and does nothing out there but stand there with a dumb look on his face and take dumb penalties.

Defense: St-Denis, nothing bad to say about him, such a smart player and he deserves a chance next season as a 7th D. Only thing holding him back is his size, there was one play where he got outmuscled but he got up and went back to block the shot and prevent a solid scoring chance. Ellis did the little things right so did Tinordi. Pateryn is getting into his own, he's starting to show the physical game of his that was getting hyped at the Dogs training camp in September. Beaulieu had another excellent game, the points will come.

Forwards: Nattinen is an interesting project, he has some untapped offensive potential and he's good on the forecheck, smart player all around. I like Hollands quickness and creativity out there, treat to watch. Tough game for Gallagher, took too many shots that had no chance of going in but he did have a good chance in the 2nd where he had an open net but it got blocked, definitely seemed frustrated out there with his performance. Dumont was solid, did the little things right and was flawless on the PK. Quailer was pretty quiet tonight.

That's all my thoughts for today's game.

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