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Old
10-29-2012, 02:05 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
Abdelkader and Helm didn't spend a whole lot of time in GR if I remember correctly
I'm not sure Abby is a success at this point.
Helm... well, he played one year in GR and then came up and did very well in the playoffs.
We had no business sending him back to GR, but we did.

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10-29-2012, 02:07 AM
  #27
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Up until this season Tatar never played like a guy who was ready to be solid NHL player. If they have a season and Tatar is still playing this way, he'll make the team, no doubt in my mind. He's definitely playing at a much higher level than Nyquist right now.
I disagree.
I think people have this unreasonable expectation that a player needs to put up 80 points in the AHL before he can play in the NHL.

All I would do is point people to the top 25 rookie scoring list of the last couple years. AHL dominance is not a requirement to succeed in the NHL. Not on bad teams. And not on Stanley Cup Finalists, either.

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10-29-2012, 02:08 AM
  #28
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At some point, the Wings need a shift in their thinking.

Stop with the Holmstroms and Bertuzzis until they are 39. Very few forwards are effective after 35.

Stop briinging back the "old gang."

Start giving youth the opportunity to step up and succeed.

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10-29-2012, 02:13 AM
  #29
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Both Tatar and Nyquist have looked good, I don't really understand the back and forth going on here. Tatar has been slightly better through 7 games. They are very similar so if you're high on one you should be high on the other. Nyquist in my opinion is a little more rounded and should make for the better NHL player. Tatar though has grown a lot of elements in his game and really that is the best part, he has put in the work and improved the areas we used to think would be a problem. One nice thing is Blashill is putting them together a lot and I think it makes both better players and you are seeing that this year.

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10-29-2012, 02:32 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Tatar is faster..
uh?

error #1327: can't proceed further the first three words

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10-29-2012, 02:53 AM
  #31
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tatar seems faster and more involved in the play than he did previously, but i have not seen enough, either now or in previous seasons, to be sure.

i haven't seen enough of nyquist to make a good comparison of them. nyquist has seemed more creative, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
At some point, this kids wants a big league salary.
Even more than that, at some point you want to make progress.

3 years straight of GR.

We're killing our prospects and I guarantee you that Detroit is developing a rep among youngsters as a place that doesn't give kids a chance.
Mursak should have gotten his chance two years ago, but...Mike Modano and company
Nyquist should have been in the AHL after his sophomore year and getting his rookie shot last year. Tatar should have had his rookie shot last year.

I can't think of a single prospect who spent 2-3 years in GR who I can say, "Yep, we developed him well."

Maybe Kopecky.
i am worried about that, too.

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10-29-2012, 03:08 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I've been saying for a while that the reason everyone was so high on Nyquist was because he's 2-3 years older than guys like Tatar, Jurco, etc.
Nyquist is a little over a year older than Tatar, not 2-3 years.


Quote:
Tatar is miles ahead of where Nyquist was at his age
Tatar is on pace to put up pretty similar numbers to that of Nyquist at the same age (though it's only been 6 games, so it's too small a sample size to be very meaningful). At best, at this point, he is at Nyquist's level at the same age. Miles ahead? Not even close. And Tatar is neither the faster nor the overall better skater between the two.


Last edited by jaster: 10-29-2012 at 03:13 AM.
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10-29-2012, 07:37 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Pretty much this, he has to be on the team by the end of this year or promised by the team next year or I think he will leave. He still has the NHL dream, but he has been pretty open about how disappointed he is that he isn't in Detroit already. The guy has good options, he is not going to sit around forever.
Well since this is mentioned he was heard yesterday on the broadcast and he talked about turning down KHL offers because he wants to be a Red Wing. His words, not mine. He knows he's close and don't want to give up now. Everything has a date of course, but I think he sees how Smith and Nyquist are a year older than him and probably will be regulars this year. Emmerton is two years older and was a regular last year. His year would be coming next.

Also, just because he stays in the AHL doesn't mean he can't be the first guy to jump in for injured players. If a skill guy gets injured, it's better to call him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Both Tatar and Nyquist have looked good, I don't really understand the back and forth going on here. Tatar has been slightly better through 7 games. They are very similar so if you're high on one you should be high on the other. Nyquist in my opinion is a little more rounded and should make for the better NHL player. Tatar though has grown a lot of elements in his game and really that is the best part, he has put in the work and improved the areas we used to think would be a problem. One nice thing is Blashill is putting them together a lot and I think it makes both better players and you are seeing that this year.
I'm not sure you agree with me but I think Nyquist has slightly better hockey sense than Tatar. I think he's a little more effective. But they complement each other great.

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10-29-2012, 07:50 AM
  #34
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we got too many forwards.


bert, cleary, sammy, mursak, emmerton, eaves, miller, abby, helm, tootoo, filppula, tatar, nyqvist, brunner, z, dats, mule, homer....


how is holland and babcock conna fix this?


Last edited by landskronala: 10-29-2012 at 08:14 AM.
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10-29-2012, 08:24 AM
  #35
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Yes, the Wings are an organization who like their prospects overripe. They'll have to change their strategy now that their stars are losing some of their edge (although Z and D are lighting it up in Europe )

Tatar is NHL ready. No argument there. He's shown it in GR and in the WC. Every team in the NHL wants Tatar, it would be a waste to let him go. Either play him with the Red Wings, trade him or let him go to another league. Don't bury him in the minors.

If we have a season this year, then he should be one of the 14 forwards. Otherwise next year. They'll have to waive/trade some guys, but Tatar should be on the team. I still don't get the two year Bertuzzi deal.

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10-29-2012, 08:25 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
we got too many forwards.


bert, cleary, sammy, mursak, emmerton, eaves, miller, abby, helm, tootoo, filppula, tatar, nyqvist, brunner, z, dats, mule, homer....


how is holland and babcock conna fix this?
Time to be bold and trade for defense.

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10-29-2012, 09:21 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
What makes you think that?
If we lose Tatar to the KHL, I will be so pissed at Holland & the front office.
Thats just pure speculation. If people here (not saying you) would actually watch the griffins game they would have seen the Tatar interview last game where he said he had avery lucrative offer in the KHL but has his heart dead set on becoming a wing so he played in the AHL instead. This kid is gonna be a red wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Tatar is faster, more physical, better defensively, and generally stronger. Nyquist has more offensive dazzle, and Tatar is obviously more effective offensively right now.



And all of the other things he does better than Nyquist.
When was the last time you watched the griffins? Theyre pretty close speed wise, Nyquist is definitely better defensively and a HUGE part of the reason why Tatar looks more effective offensively is because for the most part Nyquist has been creating all his chances.

Tatar is coming out of the gate hot with Nyquist setting him up, but its a small sample size. Nyquist showed last season he can do it consistently and creates chances, doesnt just capitalize on them. Tatar is the type that can score given the chance, Nyquist is the one who will create that chance and can also score

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10-29-2012, 09:46 AM
  #38
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In the game last Friday which was on FSD, Ken&Mickey and even Holland were praising Nyquist but Babcock said he thought Tatar was clearly the best Griffin on the ice. Either he was trying to keep him happy or actually meant it, but either way I think Babcock is ready to give him a shot.

How much longer is he waiver-free?

I personally think, based on the GR games I've seen so far, that Nyquist is the heart and soul of their offense. Tatar has also been good but Nyquist makes things happen every shift.

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10-29-2012, 09:58 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
we got too many forwards.


bert, cleary, sammy, mursak, emmerton, eaves, miller, abby, helm, tootoo, filppula, tatar, nyqvist, brunner, z, dats, mule, homer....


how is holland and babcock conna fix this?
We can knock one of those guys off the list as Homer doesn't have a contract.
Tatar will more then likely start the season in GR and both Emmerton and Eaves will probably start the season on IR.

That leaves bert, cleary, sammy, mursak, miller, abby, helm, tootoo, filppula, nyqvist, brunner, z, dats and mule. Now when either Emmerton or Eaves comes back somebody will have to be moved. I agree I think its time to package a coupld guys for a stay at home Dman.

Looking forward to next year both Cleary and Miller will be UFA and Mursak RFA so Tatar will have a roster spot.

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10-29-2012, 10:06 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I disagree.
I think people have this unreasonable expectation that a player needs to put up 80 points in the AHL before he can play in the NHL.

All I would do is point people to the top 25 rookie scoring list of the last couple years. AHL dominance is not a requirement to succeed in the NHL. Not on bad teams. And not on Stanley Cup Finalists, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
At some point, the Wings need a shift in their thinking.

Stop with the Holmstroms and Bertuzzis until they are 39. Very few forwards are effective after 35.

Stop briinging back the "old gang."

Start giving youth the opportunity to step up and succeed.
Agree 100% CB. Been saying that for a long time.

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10-29-2012, 11:29 AM
  #41
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Plain and simple, if they don't feel like he's in their 2013-2014 roster then you move him at the draft. If they screw this up and he walks away, that is going to be a big time asset with very good potential that we messed up and let walk away.

I would love to see him on the wing with Hank and Filppula, but I think i could settle with him playing with Helm and a guy like Cleary or Brunner.

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10-29-2012, 11:48 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ChadS View Post
In the game last Friday which was on FSD, Ken&Mickey and even Holland were praising Nyquist but Babcock said he thought Tatar was clearly the best Griffin on the ice. Either he was trying to keep him happy or actually meant it, but either way I think Babcock is ready to give him a shot.

How much longer is he waiver-free?

I personally think, based on the GR games I've seen so far, that Nyquist is the heart and soul of their offense. Tatar has also been good but Nyquist makes things happen every shift.
Every season you play in the AHL before 20 makes your ELC slide. So Tatar actually has this year and next left on his ELC.

As for Nyquist vs Tatar discussion I find that kinda moot. Both of them are NHL ready in their own way even if it comes to a discussion of who should get the nod first. Tatar has improved his game without the puck tremendously, but not to Nyquist's level yet. But I still think he's NHL ready if given the chance. Just give him a call-up at first injury. Like zetterberg40 said, whatever they do they can't afford to let him slip out to nothing.

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10-29-2012, 12:40 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
we got too many forwards.


bert, cleary, sammy, mursak, emmerton, eaves, miller, abby, helm, tootoo, filppula, tatar, nyqvist, brunner, z, dats, mule, homer....


how is holland and babcock conna fix this?
Like they always do. By giving the vets the job and burying their rookies.

Holland is like a squirrel collecting players for the long winter lockout.

I love Jordin Tootoo and we need a guy like that. But Tootoo, Brunner and Sammy in the same year?

The Wings have become a quantity over quality team.

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10-29-2012, 12:46 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadS View Post
In the game last Friday which was on FSD, Ken&Mickey and even Holland were praising Nyquist but Babcock said he thought Tatar was clearly the best Griffin on the ice. Either he was trying to keep him happy or actually meant it, but either way I think Babcock is ready to give him a shot.

How much longer is he waiver-free?

I personally think, based on the GR games I've seen so far, that Nyquist is the heart and soul of their offense. Tatar has also been good but Nyquist makes things happen every shift.
Nyquist reminds me a bit of Kozlov. Tatar reminds me a bit of Zednik


This isn't 1997. We don't have a ton of hall of famers and a lack of propsects.
We have a lack of elite skill and a lot of prospects.

We need to change our development model and to stop pretending this is the 2002 Red Wings.

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10-29-2012, 01:36 PM
  #45
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The problem with Nyquist and Tartar isn't that they aren't skilled enough. They are not strong enough is why they are in the AHL. Same reason Huberdeau played in the Q last year, same reason RNH missed 20 games.

Tatar isn't rotting in the AHL. Last year would have been the first year outside of Junior for most players. Why have these guys come up and get killed in the corners by 6'4 220 lbs Dmen? What are they going to do when these big men are standing next to them in front of the net. They will get killed. you can play against players that size in the AHL where they are less skilled but NHL players that size are more common and more skilled.

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10-29-2012, 02:05 PM
  #46
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The problem with Nyquist and Tartar isn't that they aren't skilled enough. They are not strong enough is why they are in the AHL. Same reason Huberdeau played in the Q last year, same reason RNH missed 20 games.

Tatar isn't rotting in the AHL. Last year would have been the first year outside of Junior for most players. Why have these guys come up and get killed in the corners by 6'4 220 lbs Dmen? What are they going to do when these big men are standing next to them in front of the net. They will get killed. you can play against players that size in the AHL where they are less skilled but NHL players that size are more common and more skilled.
Huberdeau was 18 last year and probably weighed around 165-170 pounds. Not even comparable at all to Nyquist and Tatar who are both older and heavier. Most people believe Huberdeau who is only 19 and still very slender would have been playing this year with the Panthers had there been no lockout due to his talent. Nugent-Hopkins was still a very effective player last year even with his very very thin frame.

Nyquist and Tatar are not in the NHL because there is a lock-out. plain and simple.

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10-29-2012, 02:06 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nyquist reminds me a bit of Kozlov. Tatar reminds me a bit of Zednik


This isn't 1997. We don't have a ton of hall of famers and a lack of propsects.
We have a lack of elite skill and a lot of prospects.

We need to change our development model and to stop pretending this is the 2002 Red Wings.
Nyquist reminds me quite a bit of Val Filppula. Not sure who Tatar reminds me of but I like him quite a bit as a player.

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10-29-2012, 02:18 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Nyquist reminds me quite a bit of Val Filppula. Not sure who Tatar reminds me of but I like him quite a bit as a player.
He isn't going to be quite as gritty but with the strides he has taken in his game I would throw out Kris Versteeg. Undersized but quick and good offensively. Zednik in Montreal probably isn't bad, although he was a bigger guy.

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10-29-2012, 02:19 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
He isn't going to be quite as gritty but with the strides he has taken in his game I would throw out Kris Versteeg. Undersized but quick and good offensively. Zednik in Montreal probably isn't bad, although he was a bigger guy.
what about Brad Marchand?

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10-29-2012, 02:30 PM
  #50
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what about Brad Marchand?
Not near the pest level, but yeah once again offensively he really should be around those kind of players. 50-60 points is very doable for him. We have always said a better skating Hudler. Well he doesn't have the same offensive prowess of Hudler, but the other improvements he has made make him a far more complete hockey player.

I really do have hopes he is becoming a Versteeg type. He is very young still and the improvement he has made across the board is really encouraging.

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