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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

View Poll Results: Ye or Na
Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
10-29-2012, 12:21 AM
  #126
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Just curious, does anyone know what the highest first round pick that was ever traded before the team that traded the pick knew what it was going to be. IE the leafs unknowingly traded the #2 overall pick. Any team ever unknowingly trade the #1 overall pick?

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10-29-2012, 12:30 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Explorer View Post
Just curious, does anyone know what the highest first round pick that was ever traded before the team that traded the pick knew what it was going to be. IE the leafs unknowingly traded the #2 overall pick. Any team ever unknowingly trade the #1 overall pick?
The Habs hoodwinking the Golden Seals, thus getting Guy Lafleur?

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:32 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
Many posters here have said that Burke has greatly improved our prospects. I have always wondered a bit about this. We always overrate our current prospects. But maybe he really has restocked our cupboards.

But when I look back at the 2008 HF team prospects ranking I see we were ranked 17th in the league. In the most recent HF rankings we are 18th. Can anyone explain to me why it seems be be generally accepted that Burke has vastly improved our prospect pool but HF thinks we have slipped (one spot) in the rankings.
Over 4 years.

Last year we were 8th. Frattin and Gardiner graduated.

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:39 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Over 4 years.

Last year we were 8th. Frattin and Gardiner graduated.
The 2008 team had just lost Tlusty and Stralman.
Players who, at the time, were just as highly rated as Frattin and Gardiner.

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10-29-2012, 12:48 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
**** happens. Noone expected the Leafs to bottom out that year with the additions in the offseason. At least we got a great player in return for that pick, who is still the best player in the deal by a fair margin (on a crappy team). Could have been a lot worse, we could have gotten another Toskala in return for 3 picks.

It's time to stop living in the past and look towards the future.
Poor JFJ , i think he would have loved if the **** happens excuse would have worked for him .

So if the team was so much better than it's record in Burkes first full season why are we still a lottery team 3 years after the trade .

You guys really want it both ways , on one hand you say the team was brutal when Burke took over and that's why this rebuild is taking so long and then you turn around and say there's no way anyone could have predicted that the picks would be so high based on the moves Burke made . You have have to pick one or the other because your statements contradict themsevles .

Seguin is a much better all around player than Kessel and he's already an all star at 19 so i have no idea how you can say PK is still the better player by a fair margin .

I'm ready to move on as soon as Burke is gone or he actually improves the team . I'd also be quite happy if he actually tried to rebuild this team instead of still trying to simply make the playoffs . Tying up valuable cap space by resigning JML/Grabo arn't moves that will lead us to cup contender status .

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10-29-2012, 12:52 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Explorer View Post
Just curious, does anyone know what the highest first round pick that was ever traded before the team that traded the pick knew what it was going to be. IE the leafs unknowingly traded the #2 overall pick. Any team ever unknowingly trade the #1 overall pick?
already answered

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10-29-2012, 01:09 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
The Habs hoodwinking the Golden Seals, thus getting Guy Lafleur?
Was there a general consensus that the Seals were going to finish poorly (in the bottom 5) before the trade? Or were they "never predicted to be that bad"?

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10-29-2012, 01:17 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
There isn't an argument anymore and polls like this shouldn't exist.

Factually, Burke has been flat out terrible and should be replaced. That is not an "opinion". That's a reasoned conclusion based entirely on facts.

Those that ignore facts and choose to believe what they want to believe (and not what has been proven as correct) are the only ones that will vote yes.

If somebody can look at the facts and conclude that Burke has done a good job, well, they've used spin. They've manipulated facts and reason to create an alternate reality.
So somebody that supports Burke does not interpret facts differently. They simply relied on spin instead of facts. That is a delusion, not an opinion.

In conclusion, there is no differing opinions about Burke.
There's those that factually agree that he's been a disaster.
And there's those who have created a delusional world based on spin and rhetoric.

Now that I've clarified the entire situation beyond rebuttal or argument, I don't believe threads like this need to exist anymore.
Remember... I have not offered my mere opinion here. I have offered a reasoned conclusion after careful examination of factual evidence.
Cool story bro, fancy words dont make your argument any stronger. Burke took this organization from the s***hole it was to a organization with decent amount of prospects and something to look forward to next year. Compare what we had before Burke and now in 2012...huge difference. Can't blame him because Reimer got a concussion and then Lupul and Liles both took injuries

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10-29-2012, 01:58 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by DionPhaneuf3 View Post
Cool story bro, fancy words dont make your argument any stronger. Burke took this organization from the s***hole it was to a organization with decent amount of prospects and something to look forward to next year. Compare what we had before Burke and now in 2012...huge difference. Can't blame him because Reimer got a concussion and then Lupul and Liles both took injuries
Don't the other 29 teams have to deal with injury? I wouldn't say there is a huge difference from 4 years ago yet, atleast not in the standings. Sure we might have more potential than 4 years ago, but until it translate to winning it's just meaningless potential.

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10-29-2012, 02:36 AM
  #135
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Hey guys, just a question. I know you are really pleased with Kessel, and he is a fantastic offensive talent. But would you guys prefer: Kessel Rielly Going into the future? Or: Seguin Hamilton Reilly? Or alternatively, what might have occured: Seguin Hamilton Galchenyuk? Of those three options, which would you prefer to build the future with? (It's a tricky question because they're all so young, but just taking into account what you know up to this point).

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10-29-2012, 03:50 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Poor JFJ , i think he would have loved if the **** happens excuse would have worked for him .
It did, for a while. Otherwise he wouldn't have lasted 5 seasons, since that's basically all that happened during his rain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
So if the team was so much better than it's record in Burkes first full season why are we still a lottery team 3 years after the trade .
#1 reason: Burke's reluctance to fire his buddy like 2 years ago. Run and gun just doesn't fly in today's NHL. Just ask Bryzgalov. Your team also needs to be able to kill more than one out of every 2 penalty, otherwise whatever grit you have will be holding back a lot more to avoid putting the team down a man. Burke's provided plenty of special teams players over his tenure, Ronnie just didn't know what to do with them.

He's also underestimated how difficult it'd be to obtain key pieces (skilled grit, Sundin's replacement, and a decent goalie) of the puzzle with other GMs tossing around retarded cap circumventing retirement deals left and right. I'm glad he didn't get caught up in that flow, otherwise, our cap situation may be screwed for a whole generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
You guys really want it both ways , on one hand you say the team was brutal when Burke took over and that's why this rebuild is taking so long and then you turn around and say there's no way anyone could have predicted that the picks would be so high based on the moves Burke made . You have have to pick one or the other because your statements contradict themsevles .
20/20 hindsight, obviously. The team looked a lot better on paper than their performance indicated. Even with as much stink they generated that season, though, had we had even an average PK, we probably would have finished out of lottery position.

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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Seguin is a much better all around player than Kessel and he's already an all star at 19 so i have no idea how you can say PK is still the better player by a fair margin .
Do you believe Seguin would have been an All-Star already in a Leafs uniform with Bozak and Crabb on his line? I think not. The kid is surrounded by a Stanley Cup team with ridiculous depth. At this stage, Seguin is just another good player on a very good team. Kessel on the other hand is an elite scorer, who still manages to put points up while getting double teamed on most nights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I'm ready to move on as soon as Burke is gone or he actually improves the team . I'd also be quite happy if he actually tried to rebuild this team instead of still trying to simply make the playoffs . Tying up valuable cap space by resigning JML/Grabo arn't moves that will lead us to cup contender status .
That's the problem. For a lot of people, rebuild automatically means tanking for X years for #1 picks. Burke's been acquiring the pieces he can (at a price he thinks reasonable) when they become available. Whatever he doesn't think he'll be able to get from trades / UFA, he's been drafting or getting in form of prospects. This would mostly include big bodies who can actually play the game. If they have some grit, even better. The Marlies are contenders, and a lot of the kids who helped them there are getting ready to make their contributions to the big club.

I don't mind the Liles signing, as I believe he'll play an important part in Gardiner's and Blacker's development, but the Grabo signing bugs me, too. Regardless, thanks to Burke not handcuffing himself with retirement contracts, our cap space is looking real good. Depending on how the new CBA pans out, I think Burke will be ready to make a serious run at some impact players on some cap handicapped teams.

Two more seasons sounds about right to see his management starting to bear some fruit. Yes, yes, I know, he wasn't interested in a 5-year rebuild plan, but alas, here we are.

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10-29-2012, 03:53 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Hey guys, just a question. I know you are really pleased with Kessel, and he is a fantastic offensive talent. But would you guys prefer: Kessel Rielly Going into the future? Or: Seguin Hamilton Reilly? Or alternatively, what might have occured: Seguin Hamilton Galchenyuk? Of those three options, which would you prefer to build the future with? (It's a tricky question because they're all so young, but just taking into account what you know up to this point).
Seguin would already be declared a bust around here by now. He, no doubt would have been yanked back and forth between the Marlies and the Leafs for the past two seasons.

Also, why is Reilly/Galchenyuk included in the question?


Last edited by 4evaBlue: 10-29-2012 at 04:05 AM.
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10-29-2012, 05:46 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Urban Explorer View Post
Just curious, does anyone know what the highest first round pick that was ever traded before the team that traded the pick knew what it was going to be. IE the leafs unknowingly traded the #2 overall pick. Any team ever unknowingly trade the #1 overall pick?
What difference would it make? Are we going to argue that a team trading back to back 1st overalls is a shrewd move because they KNEW it was 1st overall?

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10-29-2012, 05:50 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Hey guys, just a question. I know you are really pleased with Kessel, and he is a fantastic offensive talent. But would you guys prefer: Kessel Rielly Going into the future? Or: Seguin Hamilton Reilly? Or alternatively, what might have occured: Seguin Hamilton Galchenyuk? Of those three options, which would you prefer to build the future with? (It's a tricky question because they're all so young, but just taking into account what you know up to this point).
It's a silly question because it is founded in layer upon layer of assumption. In reality, it's actually based on the very thing that is the reason why Burke made the Kessel trade: knowing what you are getting.

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10-29-2012, 05:53 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
What difference would it make? Are we going to argue that a team trading back to back 1st overalls is a shrewd move because they KNEW it was 1st overall?
I'm just asking because the general consensus for Burke unknowingly trading the 2nd overall is that "there was no way he could of predicted the team to be that bad".

I'm just wondering if it was a similar case with the Golden Seals, or if they predicted they would be bad and knew they were giving up a high pick when they made the trade with montreal.

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10-29-2012, 06:00 AM
  #141
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I voted yes just as I have voted in every stupid Burke poll which always seems to show that he has overwhelming support despite the loud crying from the usual suspects that like to try and have you believe that everyone wants him canned. Every single poll that's been put up here has a LARGE majority supporting Burke, extending Burke or keeping Burke around if we had the choice.


Quote:
These polls can be misleading - I know there are a handful of guys who have multiple accounts. They usually post a thread then spend all day logging in and out supporting their own arguments
- My new favourite comment. Talk about grasping at straws.

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10-29-2012, 06:27 AM
  #142
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Put it down to 70 - 30 %, I support BB, I think it must be like the 1% vs 99%, 1 % will camp out and yell the loudest, cause mayhem to try to get there point across, the majority, knows they'er right, then no need to beat their chest online. But this makes for a great read. If BB get's let go, just wait to see how long it takes for the new guy to be slaughterd here. Again it will be a great read.

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10-29-2012, 07:09 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
I voted yes just as I have voted in every stupid Burke poll which always seems to show that he has overwhelming support despite the loud crying from the usual suspects that like to try and have you believe that everyone wants him canned. Every single poll that's been put up here has a LARGE majority supporting Burke, extending Burke or keeping Burke around if we had the choice.
That's why we showed the old JFJ thread from 2007.
It read very similarly to this one (biased leaf fans using spin and rhetoric to defend a disgrace of a gm, while rational leaf fans sited facts and statistics as their evidence).

Leaf fans defending their team, GM, and prospects regardless of facts and evidence?
Shocking.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...

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10-29-2012, 07:37 AM
  #144
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No top six forwards huh ? You have 100% proven you do not know what you are talking about and are just a hater.

There are a few things people can rationally complain about with Burke, the poor free agent signings mostly (Komi/Armstrong/Connolly), and they were generally unlucky . Other than that all you have is the Kessel trade which is still not a proven loss and we have the best player from the deal. His trading has been excellent and it is still too early to say about his drafting .

The real problem is peoples expectations here are generally unreasonable. These are people that more or less nothing would make happy and they just troll here to bring the rest of us down.
The Leafs haven't made the post season since 2004. What could I possibly do to make the fan base more down than it actually is. Bringing the fans' spirits up (any sign of a turn-around, a rise in the standings, playoffs, a cup) is the responsibility of a GM. If he's not doing that for you I would really give your head a check as to why you would continue to support him. I'm a person who has seen better leaf teams in my lifetime and I expect more. I like Burke as a person, but I don't like how this team looks as of Oct. 29/ 2012.

Also, our forwards are not very good. Yes they can get points, but they are too 1-dimensional for my liking. We have 2-3 guys who can play in the top 6. One of those is Lupul who has only one great season in his career. Kessel is a scorer and he's doing fine at that position. You're still 3 or 4 guys shy of a competitive top 6.

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10-29-2012, 08:34 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Such as? People claim his UFA are all busts. If that is the case, he hasn't hurt the rebuild. He hasn't traded a single one of the players he has picked. He's only traded one of the higher ceiling potential prospects he inherited and he did so from a position of strength for a 2nd overall. He's acquired more 1st rounders than any other GM over the past 4 years (if memory serves). He's gotten younger on most every trade. By "quite a bit" do you mean the Kessel trade, where basically he fell behind by one player? Or do you mean that he hasn't acquired a vet goalie yet (which would only serve to make our picks worse)?
Ottawa has made 5 * 1st. round picks while Toronto has made 4*1st. round picks during the 2009-2012 timeframe. Neither team had a 1st. in 2010, Ottawa had 3 in 2011 and Toronto had 2.

Ottawa
6th. - 9 NHL games 1 point (forward)
9th. - 83 NHL games 17 points (defenseman)
15th.
21st.
24th.

Four players from the 2009 - 2011 draft have played NHL games.
Silfverberg SEL MVP and Player of the Year award.

Toronto
5th.
7th. - 51 NHL games 19 points (forward)
22nd.
25th.

One player from the 2009 - 2011 draft has played NHL games.
D'Amigo ROY honours in NCAA Hockey East (IIRC)

Off the top of my head I can't think of any other awards for the teams involved? Appreciate any if you can mention them.

Oh, Sens have been a playoffs team, the Leafs not so much.

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10-29-2012, 08:49 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Over 4 years.

Last year we were 8th. Frattin and Gardiner graduated.
And like Frattin was a JFj scouts' pick, I'm sure there were picks in the 2008 ranking that were made before JFj was GM.

Really hard to say a cupboard is well stocked if there are no guaranteed contents marked on boxes.

Open one 7th. round box and you might have Barron Smith open another 7th. round box and you might have Carl Gunnarsson.

Maybe Loov turns into another Gunnarsson?

What was the highest pick JFj had, 13th.? At least Burke is drafting in the top 5. That's good for people who wanted the tank.

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10-29-2012, 09:26 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Hey guys, just a question. I know you are really pleased with Kessel, and he is a fantastic offensive talent. But would you guys prefer: Kessel Rielly Going into the future? Or: Seguin Hamilton Reilly? Or alternatively, what might have occured: Seguin Hamilton Galchenyuk? Of those three options, which would you prefer to build the future with? (It's a tricky question because they're all so young, but just taking into account what you know up to this point).
I can't even believe this question needs to be asked.

Seguin by himself holds more value to a REBUILDING team than Kessel does/has.
Hamilton has all the makings of another future star.

Its a no brainer.

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10-29-2012, 09:34 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Ottawa has made 5 * 1st. round picks while Toronto has made 4*1st. round picks during the 2009-2012 timeframe. Neither team had a 1st. in 2010, Ottawa had 3 in 2011 and Toronto had 2.

Ottawa
6th. - 9 NHL games 1 point (forward)
9th. - 83 NHL games 17 points (defenseman)
15th.
21st.
24th.

Four players from the 2009 - 2011 draft have played NHL games.
Silfverberg SEL MVP and Player of the Year award.

Toronto
5th.
7th. - 51 NHL games 19 points (forward)
22nd.
25th.

One player from the 2009 - 2011 draft has played NHL games.
D'Amigo ROY honours in NCAA Hockey East (IIRC)

Off the top of my head I can't think of any other awards for the teams involved? Appreciate any if you can mention them.

Oh, Sens have been a playoffs team, the Leafs not so much.
Burke also aquired several first round picks in the form of Ashton, Gardiner and Colborne, hense more recent first round picks than any other team in the NHL, over the last several years.

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10-29-2012, 09:56 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Burke also aquired several first round picks in the form of Ashton, Gardiner and Colborne, hense more recent first round picks than any other team in the NHL, over the last several years.
Again, Ottawa: Michalek, Turris, Filatov

It doesn't matter that they were picked in the first round if they are not playing like first round talent.

Obviously Filatov isn't an NHL player, but for arguments sake, Ottawa collected another first rounder. Amount of first rounders does equal success. Quality of players, especially first rounders makes success, and the leafs have not gotten the quality they should have gotten out of their 7th pick (yet), and they lost their quality top 10 picks in 10 and 11.

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10-29-2012, 10:07 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
That's why we showed the old JFJ thread from 2007.
It read very similarly to this one (biased leaf fans using spin and rhetoric to defend a disgrace of a gm, while rational leaf fans sited facts and statistics as their evidence).

Leaf fans defending their team, GM, and prospects regardless of facts and evidence?
Shocking.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
Your pretty big on facts!

Here is the only fact you need.

Fact: Burke will be here the next time the Leafs play.

That means no matter how much you try to ***** and moan and convince people otherwise it is futile. Those of us that want Burke here will have him here, those of you that don't will suck it and can watch his press conferences and interviews.

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