Yes, it's all nice, but staying healthy is a skill. And Howe was a top player for 20+ years. And lets not forget that Howe also dominated his peers by the ridiculous margin during his peak. He was also by far the best player in the league during his best years. So it's not 100% clear that Orr and Lemieux had better peak. And even if they had, the difference is certainly not big enough to match extra 10 years of elite hockey that Howe has on them.
Since when?
Not to argue against Howe, who I rank 2nd only to Orr. But health as a skill? No, not at all.
Not to argue against Howe, who I rank 2nd only to Orr. But health as a skill? No, not at all.
Skill is not the right word, but in my opinion it definitely is a positive contribution to players legacy. I would consider Lindros higher in all-time lists if he could have stayed healthy.
Exactly. I don't understand the argument that Orr and his 10 seasons overall were superior to Howe and his 26. Howe lapped the NHL in the early 1950s. We never really saw that dominance from another player until Gretzky. Orr might have been better at his peak than Howe, but it isn't by much and Howe has an entire decade after that of elite play. Most of use put Gretzky at #1. But to be honest, what I think should almost be as unanimous is Howe at #2.
Even if you ignore every player that played in the NHL prior to the 1980s (which is strange to do on a History board) that is still a weird list there. Also even if you base it on their primes. By your logic the first two are fine. But Pronger had a better prime than Lemieux and Jagr? Bure over Bourque? I assume that's Scott Stevens at #10 as well and while he's a lock cinch HHOFer he has no business on this list, not even by the standards you have.
Orr dominated the game like no other player ever could.
Well if we are talking about Mario then his back problems are probably not bad luck. Chronic back pain is usually caused by doing something wrong. Like having wrong training methods (or no methods) in youth.
As with Orr and his bad knees. Yes, you can't really blame him if others went after his knees. Although there is a reason why for example Howe played so long and was pretty healthy. Players knew that if they went after him, then Howe would open their skull, next time. Nobody really wanted to mess with him. Same can't be said about Orr.
However, Mr. Howe actually did have his skull opened when he went head first into the boards early in is career. Doctors saved his life. If they didn't, we wouldn't be talking about him at all in this thread.
As for Mario's back problems, didn't the Great One also have back issues?
Not to argue against Howe, who I rank 2nd only to Orr. But health as a skill? No, not at all.
Staying healthy isnt necessarily a skill but if you cant stay healthy with your style of play its definitely a negative. Mario even ebfore the cancer was out of shape and would miss games hurt. Howe was rough and tumble but still the most durable thing the NHL has seen.
What are the arguments for Howe over Orr. I think I have Orr at second with Howe third but see quite a few listing it opposite
Staying healthy isnt necessarily a skill but if you cant stay healthy with your style of play its definitely a negative. Mario even ebfore the cancer was out of shape and would miss games hurt. Howe was rough and tumble but still the most durable thing the NHL has seen.
What are the arguments for Howe over Orr. I think I have Orr at second with Howe third but see quite a few listing it opposite
I have no argument for Howe over Orr. I rank Howe 2nd to Orr.
Then what's your argument for Howe and Orr over Gretzky?
They were better hockey players.
Gretzky was the best offensively. But Orr was pretty close considering he was defenseman. To me leading the league in scoring as a defenseman is comparable to scoring 200 points. But Orr's game was great the whole time he was on the ice, not just when his team possessed the puck.
Howe was also very dominant offensively. Like all players of his era, he was also defensively responsible, which Gretzky was not. Howe also brought an extreme physical prescence to the ice, the complete opposite of Gretzky.
However, Mr. Howe actually did have his skull opened when he went head first into the boards early in is career. Doctors saved his life. If they didn't, we wouldn't be talking about him at all in this thread.
As for Mario's back problems, didn't the Great One also have back issues?
Yes, I know that story about Howe. That doesn't really make a difference, because in general Howe was healthy and feared tough SOB. So everyone thought twice before they tried to do something to him.
As for Gretzky. How many games he missed due to health issues? Especially in his prime years. Really not comparable with Mario, who was pretty much forced to quit because of his bad back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie
I have no argument for Howe over Orr. I rank Howe 2nd to Orr.
How about the fact that Howe was elite twice as long as Orr? Is that a weak argument?
Orr dominated the game like no other player ever could.
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.
i can buy the longevity argument for gretzky. i still go with orr, but i understand it. i can even respect howe over orr, though again i disagree.
but re: the gap between orr and the next guys (esposito and clarke) relative to gretzky's gap, from what i've seen from the handful of those bruins games, and from what i saw of gretzky, orr impacted the game more than gretzky did. gretzky had a larger offensive margin over the next guy, obviously. but from what i saw, and anecdotal evidence, orr's all-round game destroyed clarke's all round game (both what orr did on the defensive end that was far beyond what a forward-- even arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time-- could possibly do, and that orr outscored clarke in all but one of their prime years). orr vs. esposito, from '70 to '75, which was orr's offensive peak, espo only outscores him by 52 points in 18 more games (this cuts off two elite esposito years immediately before orr peaked offensively, though). being that orr was a defenseman, and that those two teammates shared the art ross trophy for eight straight years so it's difficult to determine how much credit each should get for the other's success, i'd say the gap is very large. without getting into who helped whose numbers, i'll compromise by saying orr and esposito were equals offensively. defensively, it's not even a conversation.
now breaking up what orr did as vulgarly as offensive performance and defensive performance neglects the true genius of orr, which was how he controlled the game in transition. something he did better than anyone else, ever.
gretzky controlled the game too, and was also one of the all-time great transition players. and like orr, he was one of a kind at his peak. he was at a level where even measuring the margin by which he was greater than the next guy doesn't make sense. you can't say "trottier and bossy each get you 60% of gretzky's points, so having him and bossy would be better than having one gretzky." gretzky was an anomaly and totally incomparable. you measure him by a completely different mathematical language than everybody else. but i submit that orr was even more incomparable relative to his peers.
and that's my argument for orr. most players you can measure by some metric that involves stats, accomplishments, and intangibles. howe transcends that. then a quantum leap to gretzky, who transcends even what you would measure howe by. and orr, in my opinion, was the greatest ever because what he did was even beyond what gretzky did. you can't say orr was some combination of coffey, harvey, potvin, bourque, or whomever else you'd want to jumble together to make the perfect defenseman. you could add up every individual thing you'd want from a hockey player and orr would be more than that. this is getting really long-winded, but the three greats, they all are in leagues of their own. by gretzky's league is higher than howe's, and orr's higher than gretzky's.
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.
Bobby Orr was better than Gretzky, of this I have zero doubt. I would never deny the fact that Gretzky is king for offensive hockey - no question and no argument. But when you consider that Gretzky also personally witnessed more goals while on the ice than any other skater during his career, and that he was a negative +/- six out of his last seven seasons, some of the career "advantage" begins to be tarnished (at least for those without the Gretzky colored glasses). Orr redefined his position and the game. He dominated his positional peers to a far greater degree than Gretzky ever did. No other defenseman has ever sniffed an Art Ross, nor could Gretzky ever dream of winning a Norris.
Ten years may not be the longest career - but no one was ever better for their peak - heck, when Orr retired, he was #1 ppg all-time,not to mention his defensive and physical play. Bobby Orr, # 1, and everyone else is still playing for second place.
any reason nobody has denis potvin in their top 10?
he had a solid 15 year career, first defenceman to 1000 points, 3 norris trophies, and captain of 4 stanley cup winning teams. retired leading all defensemen in points, goals & assists
not as flashy as orr, but i think he was better than ray borque. any thoughts?
any reason nobody has denis potvin in their top 10?
he had a solid 15 year career, first defenceman to 1000 points, 3 norris trophies, and captain of 4 stanley cup winning teams. retired leading all defensemen in points, goals & assists
not as flashy as orr, but i think he was better than ray borque. any thoughts?
You won't find many who put Potvin ahead of Ray Bourque. At their peaks, Bourque was nominated for (and robbed of one) Hart trophies, and he stayed at an elite level for longer than any defenseman in history. Not to take away from Potvin, he just doesn't surpass Bourque, who currently leads all defensemen in career goals, assists, and points.
