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Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

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Old
10-29-2012, 04:20 AM
  #476
SJeasy
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Before it is brought up again about the journeyman players staging a revolt within the PA, look at the numbers. The guys who get the long, high dollar contracts are top 6 forwards, top 4 dmen, and #1 goalies. The lesser pay goes to bottom 6, bottom pair and backup. Per team, that is 11 top players and 9 bottom players. Maybe 2 reserves in the PA, who would be bottom players. At best a 50/50 split between top guys and also rans. If the PA split on those party lines, it would at best be a close vote. It has to get to a point where everyone but the Crosby's, AO's, etc. is getting their ox gored.

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10-29-2012, 05:04 AM
  #477
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I agree, post of the decade at the top of this page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
Profits dont always correlate with the increase in wealth they have accumulated due to their ownership of the team. In fact we have seen owners who recorded millions in losses for every year they owned the team and still increased their wealth by owning and even more when they sold.

Losing money in "profits" dont mean jack if their franchise values are increasing by a hundred million dollars.
Examples of teams that lost money every year and had their value go up 100+ million when they sold it, in a short enough time span to make their net a positive, appropriate return on investment. Go.

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10-29-2012, 05:28 AM
  #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
And hiring and keeping Bettman on was a statement of a new era in peaceful co-operation between owners and cattle.

Here we have a union that has made as its opening offer in negotiation to take less money going forward in an attempt to work with the owners to solve some of the revenue disparity issues.

And Bettmans opening offer is a punch in the face.

And you want to say poor Bettman had no choice, the players made him do it when they hired Fehr? And after seeing all the offers made to date are going to stand by such a ridiculous assertion?
Yes, the gracious players are doing everything they cant to ensure the overall health of the league. Thy are going so far as to minimize their guaranteed raises. But remember they just wana play

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10-29-2012, 06:16 AM
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Yes, the gracious players are doing everything they cant to ensure the overall health of the league. Thy are going so far as to minimize their guaranteed raises. But remember they just wana play
Excuse me for one second I'm just going to take a picture of my Ferrari and put in on twitter whilst clearly stating my desire to play.

I don't think many people have sympathy for the players right now.

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10-29-2012, 07:07 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Excuse me for one second I'm just going to take a picture of my Ferrari and put in on twitter whilst clearly stating my desire to play.

I don't think many people have sympathy for the players right now.
You got that right. I would say in the public eye they have maybe 20% support. The vast majority of the public feel the players are greedy and unreasonable. I laugh every time I hear a reporter say otherwise or try and say the court of public opinion is about 50/50. Those who are saying this have an agenda or are trying to keep on the players good books.

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10-29-2012, 07:17 AM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
You got that right. I would say in the public eye they have maybe 20% support. The vast majority of the public feel the players are greedy and unreasonable. I laugh every time I hear a reporter say otherwise or try and say the court of public opinion is about 50/50. Those who are saying this have an agenda or are trying to keep on the players good books.
I hope the league sticks it too them good in their next offer and the PA realizes playing chicken isn't going to work.

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10-29-2012, 07:27 AM
  #482
Erik Estrada
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From Jack Johnson's website:

http://www.jackjohnson3.com/

"WE WANT TO PLAY!

October 28th, 2012... I want to work! I知 a professional athlete and I want to play hockey! In my chosen profession, I don稚 have until I am 60 or 70 years old to do this job. My window of opportunity to play professional hockey is limited. If I知 lucky, I can play until I知 40. I have been training as a hockey player my entire life, and I know it is a privilege to play in the NHL. So each month, each week, and each game that is cancelled is an opportunity I will never get back. This is the case for every NHL player. I value every day in this job and take my commitment to my team very seriously. I give it my all every shift. I come to play every night and I leave it all on the ice. This is my responsibility as an individual, an athlete, and a professional. I have a duty to my team, the organization that has given me this opportunity, and the fans in the stands to give them my best at all times. The concept that the owners are trying to dismantle existing contracts that they in good faith offered, signed, and committed to is appalling, unprofessional, and disgraceful. I negotiated my own contract, without an agent, with the confidence and belief that the owner offering me that contract operated by the same convictions and principals as I do. During the summer, the players offered to play through negotiations and the owners locked us out. We want to play hockey! Where is the honor? I知 ready to play and uphold my end of the deal!"

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10-29-2012, 07:37 AM
  #483
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Well I guess we can add JJ to the list of players who don't know what's going on.

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Old
10-29-2012, 07:44 AM
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
From Jack Johnson's website:

http://www.jackjohnson3.com/

[I]"WE WANT TO PLAY!

October 28th, 2012... I want to work! I知 a professional athlete and I want to play hockey! In my chosen profession, I don稚 have until I am 60 or 70 years old to do this job. My window of opportunity to play professional hockey is limited. If I知 lucky, I can play until I知 40. I have been training as a hockey player my entire life, and I know it is a privilege to play in the NHL. So each month, each week, and each game that is cancelled is an opportunity I will never get back. This is the case for every NHL player. I value every day in this job and take my commitment to my team very seriously. I give it my all every shift. I come to play every night and I leave it all on the ice. This is my responsibility as an individual, an athlete, and a professional. I have a duty to my team, the organization that has given me this opportunity, and the fans in the stands to give them my best at all times. The concept that the owners are trying to dismantle existing contracts that they in good faith offered, signed, and committed to is appalling, unprofessional, and disgraceful. I negotiated my own contract, without an agent, with the confidence and belief that the owner offering me that contract operated by the same convictions and principals as I do. During the summer, the players offered to play through negotiations and the owners locked us out. We want to play hockey! Where is the honor? I知 ready to play and uphold my end of the deal!"
Perhaps before entering into a contract one should seek some legal council and or read the document before signing.

Guess he missed that part of the SPC that discusses how his contract is subject to changes made to the SPC through collective bargaining.

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:08 AM
  #485
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I just did a quick tally for MLB. Total MLB player salaries I got was 2.9304B, and isn't total revenues like 7.7B? So that only comes up to 38.1%? So... do the NHL players really want the baseball system?

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:14 AM
  #486
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I wish they'd shut up. They agreed to it by signing their SPC, unfair ? maybe.

But if the league wasn't legally honoring contracts, they'd be in court now.

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:22 AM
  #487
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About players who say that owners aren't willing to honor the contracts they signed.. Don't they understand that in the real world, people with work contracts get laid off all the time? They should be thanking their lucky stars that they have contracts that are guaranteed no matter what. You can sign a long contract, stink up the joint, and still be able to collect a large salary for the entire duration of the contract. In the real world, you can sign a contract, stink up the joint and get fired, with nothing but severance pay (if you're lucky).

Players are losing support in the public eye because they're out of touch. They are making it seem like they are so hard done by because the owners want to cut their share of the HRR, which means roll-backs. Really, when money is never a worry to you, it shouldn't matter. If the league average goes from $2.4M to $2M, you can still buy your ferraris, you just might not be able to buy as many as you were before. The world that most of us live in isn't like that. Some of us have been asked to take salary cuts or lose our jobs... Jobs which if we didn't have, we'd be living in our parent's basement - or worse, the street. I think that if any of us were faced with that reality, we'd take the salary cut. Hearing millionaires paid to play a game whine about their money issues doesn't sit well with a public that might be living pay cheque to pay cheque paying a mortgage, bills, and loans.

The best way for the players to gain support? Shut up. Don't take to twitter and argue with fans, or don't whine to reporters in interviews. Simply say, "Hey, we're working to get a deal done. I love the game and I want to play, so I hope we can find some common ground and get this done so I can hit the ice with the boys" instead of "Bettman treats us like animals." You know who gets treated like animals? Homeless people living on the street begging for change. Not millionaire hockey players living a privileged life that they are lucky to have.

I hope Fehr tells players to stop discussing the CBA negotiations in public forum, because I don't think they realize that their situation doesn't really resonate with 99% of the population. I want to be able to respect the players and their position, but they're making it really, really hard.

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:38 AM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
From Jack Johnson's website:

http://www.jackjohnson3.com/

"WE WANT TO PLAY!

October 28th, 2012... I want to work! I知 a professional athlete and I want to play hockey! In my chosen profession, I don稚 have until I am 60 or 70 years old to do this job. My window of opportunity to play professional hockey is limited. If I知 lucky, I can play until I知 40. I have been training as a hockey player my entire life, and I know it is a privilege to play in the NHL. So each month, each week, and each game that is cancelled is an opportunity I will never get back. This is the case for every NHL player. I value every day in this job and take my commitment to my team very seriously. I give it my all every shift. I come to play every night and I leave it all on the ice. This is my responsibility as an individual, an athlete, and a professional. I have a duty to my team, the organization that has given me this opportunity, and the fans in the stands to give them my best at all times. The concept that the owners are trying to dismantle existing contracts that they in good faith offered, signed, and committed to is appalling, unprofessional, and disgraceful. I negotiated my own contract, without an agent, with the confidence and belief that the owner offering me that contract operated by the same convictions and principals as I do. During the summer, the players offered to play through negotiations and the owners locked us out. We want to play hockey! Where is the honor? I知 ready to play and uphold my end of the deal!"
He started out really good...thought it was going to be a letter to Fehr!

Then, it went downhill...back to the same "we would have played while negotiating" junk. Jack says that he wants to honor the contract. What Jack fails to realize is that the "contract" expired on Sep 15th (kinda supersedes his individual deal)

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:41 AM
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
I understand the fear - what if revenues dropped? Well ok, that seems an easy deal to negotiate - if revenues drop then salaries drop. Would that allay all your concerns then?
Absolutely should allay concerns - it is called linkage, and the NHLPA has not put forth an offer with it included.

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:49 AM
  #490
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I just want to add something here...

I see a lot of posts talking about how no contract values were guaranteed in the CBA and that no players should be surprised that they will have to take a rollback.

While this is technically correct, I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is some obvious fact and should come as no surprise to anyone.

Ever since this CBA was signed, contracts were never, ever described by teams or by the media in relation to a percentage of revenues. It was ALWAYS a fixed dollar amount. Always.

I think the reason players are fighting for this so much is because it was probably explained this way to them too. Yes, we can blame the agents who probably didn稚 do a good job making sure their clients understood what was going on, but I知 willing to bet that when these contracts were signed, the owners also quoted fixed dollar amounts. Hockey has always been a 斗ook you in the eye and shake your hand type of sport, and most players take things at face value. They probably feel misled, even if technically they are wrong.

And really, some of you guys really need to stop with the amateur lawyer BS. Spouting off a bunch of disingenuous crap about how the players are idiots for not knowing what everyone so obviously knew all along. Most of you had no idea that player contracts were structured this way before CBA negotiations started.

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:57 AM
  #491
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I just sent this letter to the Jack Johnson email address on that site:

Hello Jack,

You do realize that your current SPC says that is is open to changes based off any CBA changes. Your contract is no longer valid under those old CBA terms. All you are doing is taking away from your own pay. Nobody has sympathy for you or the other players. The owners are doing what is necessary to keep the NHL, you know the people who made you rich, in business. Maybe you should honor your commitment to hockey and take the best possible deal you can moving forward and get back on the ice. Stop living in the past and get back to hockey.

Best regards

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:00 AM
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I just want to add something here...

I see a lot of posts talking about how no contract values were guaranteed in the CBA and that no players should be surprised that they will have to take a rollback.

While this is technically correct, I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is some obvious fact and should come as no surprise to anyone.

Ever since this CBA was signed, contracts were never, ever described by teams or by the media in relation to a percentage of revenues. It was ALWAYS a fixed dollar amount. Always.

I think the reason players are fighting for this so much is because it was probably explained this way to them too. Yes, we can blame the agents who probably didn稚 do a good job making sure their clients understood what was going on, but I知 willing to bet that when these contracts were signed, the owners also quoted fixed dollar amounts. Hockey has always been a 斗ook you in the eye and shake your hand type of sport, and most players take things at face value. They probably feel misled, even if technically they are wrong.

And really, some of you guys really need to stop with the amateur lawyer BS. Spouting off a bunch of disingenuous crap about how the players are idiots for not knowing what everyone so obviously knew all along. Most of you had no idea that player contracts were structured this way before CBA negotiations started.
If the players are too stupid to realize that their deals are limited to 57% of revenues, then they deserve the "shock" of not getting paid out in full.

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10-29-2012, 09:00 AM
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
From Jack Johnson's website:

http://www.jackjohnson3.com/

"WE WANT TO PLAY!

October 28th, 2012... I want to work! I’m a professional athlete and I want to play hockey! ... We want to play hockey! Where is the honor? I’m ready to play and uphold my end of the deal!"[/B]
All of this comes across as being scripted. I wonder if Johnson really wrote it. It's not very good propaganda that's for sure.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:02 AM
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
If the players are too stupid to realize that their deals are limited to 57% of revenues, then they deserve the "shock" of not getting paid out in full.
They probably know the 57% figure but not what it's a percentage of or how it can change when a new CBA is negotiated. People on both sides of this mess are throwing around an awful lot of terminology but I wonder if they really know what all the words mean.

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10-29-2012, 09:02 AM
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I just want to add something here...

I see a lot of posts talking about how no contract values were guaranteed in the CBA and that no players should be surprised that they will have to take a rollback.

While this is technically correct, I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is some obvious fact and should come as no surprise to anyone.

Ever since this CBA was signed, contracts were never, ever described by teams or by the media in relation to a percentage of revenues. It was ALWAYS a fixed dollar amount. Always.

I think the reason players are fighting for this so much is because it was probably explained this way to them too. Yes, we can blame the agents who probably didn稚 do a good job making sure their clients understood what was going on, but I知 willing to bet that when these contracts were signed, the owners also quoted fixed dollar amounts. Hockey has always been a 斗ook you in the eye and shake your hand type of sport, and most players take things at face value. They probably feel misled, even if technically they are wrong.

And really, some of you guys really need to stop with the amateur lawyer BS. Spouting off a bunch of disingenuous crap about how the players are idiots for not knowing what everyone so obviously knew all along. Most of you had no idea that player contracts were structured this way before CBA negotiations started.
When the fluff is removed, it comes down to the words that are in bold.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:05 AM
  #496
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Shockingly, the email address on jackjohnson3.com is not taking emails. Bounced right back.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:49 AM
  #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
From Jack Johnson's website:

http://www.jackjohnson3.com/

"WE WANT TO PLAY!

October 28th, 2012... I want to work! I知 a professional athlete and I want to play hockey! In my chosen profession, I don稚 have until I am 60 or 70 years old to do this job. My window of opportunity to play professional hockey is limited. If I知 lucky, I can play until I知 40. I have been training as a hockey player my entire life, and I know it is a privilege to play in the NHL. So each month, each week, and each game that is cancelled is an opportunity I will never get back. This is the case for every NHL player. I value every day in this job and take my commitment to my team very seriously. I give it my all every shift. I come to play every night and I leave it all on the ice. This is my responsibility as an individual, an athlete, and a professional. I have a duty to my team, the organization that has given me this opportunity, and the fans in the stands to give them my best at all times. The concept that the owners are trying to dismantle existing contracts that they in good faith offered, signed, and committed to is appalling, unprofessional, and disgraceful. I negotiated my own contract, without an agent, with the confidence and belief that the owner offering me that contract operated by the same convictions and principals as I do. During the summer, the players offered to play through negotiations and the owners locked us out. We want to play hockey! Where is the honor? I知 ready to play and uphold my end of the deal!"
Oooookay. I'm shocked more of these players haven't seeked proffesional council this offseason leading up to the lock out. If you're making millions per year, you can certainly afford to talk to a lawyer or advisor regarding a major financial event. Any sane individual can look at this situation and see that it's the players that are in fact being unreasonable. Any signed contract is governed by the CBA, and since every other proffesional sports league offers far less revenue given to players, they must have known a decrease was coming. If they didn't, they should have done their homework. Lesson learned. *****ing about it now certainly won't help, the owners are all acting fully within their legal rights.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:56 AM
  #498
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So, any new news about possible negotiations......*looks at the current harsh debate going on the boards*


nevermind
I'm on both sides of the fence-I mean I do see the players pushing the idea that owners signed the deals they did, knowing that it was going to change, and are now taking advantage of that with the current negotiations.

I also see the the whole SPC side of things, in that it was there about contracts being subject to change, old CBA expired, ect-and the owners knew that, probably I'm guessing why the players haven't tried legal action re anti-trust/decertification.

And on it goes....

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:57 AM
  #499
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I've been thinking a lot about how a true 50-50 split could be achieved for the long haul. First and foremost, a "cap buyout" window that still pays players their full contract for a set number of years. If a team wanted to resign that player, they would deduct their new salary from their old one for cap purposes only. If player x is making $5 million per year and a team buys them out then resigns him for $3 million, that player still gets paid $5 million but his cap only counts for $3 million.

Could there also be a cap rollback instead of a salary rollback? This could be for any contract signed before the new CBA. So if the cap is going to be reduce by 20% (as an example), all contracts signed before the new CBA will only be counted for 80% of their worth. So if player y is making $5 million on a contract he signed before this new CBA, his team would only be on the hook for $4 million?

Finally, could player salaries ever be tied to a percentage of the cap? You don't sign a player for a dollar amount, but rather, a percentage of the cap. This would tie directly into the health of the league, would it not? I'm assuming the players would never agree to it.

Can anyone tell me why these are bad ideas? (I'm sure they are bad, I'm not trying to sound like I know much about the business side of things! These are just some things I've been thinking about. Thanks!)

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:17 AM
  #500
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Folks.. let's stop the personal shots and focus on the topic. I know it's frustrating, but no personal jabs.

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