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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
10-29-2012, 10:14 AM
  #151
HockeyGuruPitka
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We are in good hands. Burke is a lawyer and is building this team within the league parameters. He will not back himself into a corner, and this is quiet obvious.

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10-29-2012, 10:21 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Your pretty big on facts!

Here is the only fact you need.

Fact: Burke will be here the next time the Leafs play.

That means no matter how much you try to ***** and moan and convince people otherwise it is futile. Those of us that want Burke here will have him here, those of you that don't will suck it and can watch his press conferences and interviews.
That's not a fact. You can speculate or predict, but facts are based on things that occur after they happen. For instance you might be able to predict that we are in for 25mm of rain in the GTA, but the facts don't come until after the rain (to get an accurate reading).

A hockey season to start anytime soon? Only speculation.
The same GM in place whenever the season starts? We really don't know yet. More speculation.

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10-29-2012, 10:28 AM
  #153
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First Round Picks Burke has added:

1.) Komisarek (7th)
2.) Gigurere (13th)
3.) Phaneuf (8th)
4.) Armstrong (20th) ?????
5.) Lupul (7th)
6.) Gardiner (17th)
7.) Colborne (16th)
8.) Ashton (25th)
9.) Kadri (7th)
10.) Biggs (22)
11.) Percy (25th)
12.) Reilly.
13.) Kessel (5th)
14.) JVR (2nd)
15.) Connolly

1st round picks burke has traded
1.) Seguin (2nd)
2.) Schenn (5th)
3.) Hamilton (9th)
4.)Tlusty (13th).

In less than 4 years burke has added 10 more first rounders than he has traded.

In the added group we have:
A top 6 scorer in the league and 2 time allstar.
A top pairing defenseman, all star and Norris Candidate
2 established top 6 wingers.
An all rookie team defenseman
who are currently in their prime.

We also have 2 powerforward prospects (biggs and ashton) 2 top 6 forward prospects (Kadri and Colborne), a top pairing defense prospect and at least a top 6 potential player in Percy.

Komi, Giguere, Armstrong Havent worked out the way we planned but that happens in every team draft.

In return he gave up picks that turned into Seguin a 60 point player 1x allstar with room to improve, and a top rank defenseman prospect, and a potential top 4 shutdown d, and a 3rd liner.

Burke has made his team in its prime much better, through draft and prospects. If they just drafted straight up,

Seguin has to beat: Kessel, JVR, Lupul
Hamilton and Schenn has to beat: Gardiner, Percy, Phaneuf
Tlusty Has to beat: Colborne, Kadri, Biggs, Ashton,

Who would you rather build your team around

Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf, Gardiner,Colborne, Biggs, Ashton, Percy
Or Seguin, Hamilton, Schenn Tlusty???

And thats giving a big benefit of the doubt that without Burkes trades, the entire 2 years would have turned out exactly the same....

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10-29-2012, 10:35 AM
  #154
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Only Edmonton, NYI and Columbus have recorded less points and wins than Leafs during Burke's tenure as GM.

Burke's struggles as GM has forced Leaf Nation Fans to endure lots of losing seasons and longer non-playoff consecutive seasons than we have throughout our long storied history of the franchise. Even to the point, where Leafs were named the worst team in professional sports this past season, and the worst team in the NHL 4 consecutive years in a ESPN yearly ranking under Burke's tenure.

However all is not lost, as Burke's pain is Leaf Nations gain as the rewards to the Fan base is an improved prospect pool as the NHL hands out draft picks in reverse order of finish, to award struggling franchises with pieces like Morgan Rielly for the future.

This franchise desperately needs young elite talent to build a future core, so this pain and suffering is a means to an ends if Leaf scouts do their jobs well and make the right decisions at the draft table.

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10-29-2012, 10:38 AM
  #155
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Support bush!

Errr

i mean burke!

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10-29-2012, 10:39 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Only Edmonton, NYI and Columbus have recorded less points and wins than Leafs during Burke's tenure as GM.

Burke's struggles as GM has forced Leaf Nation Fans to endure lots of losing seasons and longer non-playoff consecutive seasons than we have throughout our long storied history of the franchise. Even to the point, where Leafs were named the worst team in professional sports this past season, and the worst team in the NHL 4 consecutive years in a ESPN yearly ranking under Burke's tenure.

However all is not lost, as Burke's pain is Leaf Nations gain as the rewards to the Fan base is an improved prospect pool as the NHL hands out draft picks in reverse order of finish, to award struggling franchises with pieces like Morgan Rielly for the future.

This franchise desperately needs young elite talent to build a future core, so this pain and suffering is a means to an ends if Leaf scouts do their jobs well and make the right decisions at the draft table.


As long as he has learned his lesson and doesn't attempt to fast track things by trading away Top Picks/Prospects.

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10-29-2012, 10:47 AM
  #157
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Love what Burke is doing to this team. Obviously its tough to be patient after so many terrible years. With a couple of key pieces, this team is set up to contend for many years. We have a young core.

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10-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
As long as he has learned his lesson and doesn't attempt to fast track things by trading away Top Picks/Prospects.
Luongo is the next pressure point where youth in picks and prospects are in serious jeopardy of sacrifice for instant help to fuel the GM desired fast tracking rebuild in Toronto.

This of course has the potential to be a double whammy in damage inflicted as if Luongo's addition means improvement in the standings but still a non playoff finish it only serves to weaken the draft position in addition to the loss of assets to acquire him.

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10-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
First Round Picks Burke has added:

1.) Komisarek (7th)
2.) Gigurere (13th)
3.) Phaneuf (8th)
4.) Armstrong (20th) ?????
5.) Lupul (7th)
6.) Gardiner (17th)
7.) Colborne (16th)
8.) Ashton (25th)
9.) Kadri (7th)
10.) Biggs (22)
11.) Percy (25th)
12.) Reilly.
13.) Kessel (5th)
14.) JVR (2nd)
15.) Connolly

1st round picks burke has traded
1.) Seguin (2nd)
2.) Schenn (5th)
3.) Hamilton (9th)
4.)Tlusty (13th).

In less than 4 years burke has added 10 more first rounders than he has traded.

In the added group we have:
A top 6 scorer in the league and 2 time allstar.
A top pairing defenseman, all star and Norris Candidate
2 established top 6 wingers.
An all rookie team defenseman
who are currently in their prime.

We also have 2 powerforward prospects (biggs and ashton) 2 top 6 forward prospects (Kadri and Colborne), a top pairing defense prospect and at least a top 6 potential player in Percy.

Komi, Giguere, Armstrong Havent worked out the way we planned but that happens in every team draft.

In return he gave up picks that turned into Seguin a 60 point player 1x allstar with room to improve, and a top rank defenseman prospect, and a potential top 4 shutdown d, and a 3rd liner.

Burke has made his team in its prime much better, through draft and prospects. If they just drafted straight up,

Seguin has to beat: Kessel, JVR, Lupul
Hamilton and Schenn has to beat: Gardiner, Percy, Phaneuf
Tlusty Has to beat: Colborne, Kadri, Biggs, Ashton,

Who would you rather build your team around

Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf, Gardiner,Colborne, Biggs, Ashton, Percy
Or Seguin, Hamilton, Schenn Tlusty???

And thats giving a big benefit of the doubt that without Burkes trades, the entire 2 years would have turned out exactly the same....
That's some logic you got going there. Tlusty has to beat: Colborne, Kadri, Biggs, Ashton? Are you just randomly comparing players?? Burke might as well sign Alexandre Daigle while he's at it since he was a first overall and you could add him to your list. He also better resign Connolly and Komi asap before someone else takes our first rounders away from us.

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10-29-2012, 10:52 AM
  #160
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We should have a Stickied thread where the facts/evidence debunking Burke supporters myths/arguments can be found and easily referred to - so we don't have to regurgitate the same things over and over in every thread.

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10-29-2012, 10:57 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
That's not a fact. You can speculate or predict, but facts are based on things that occur after they happen. For instance you might be able to predict that we are in for 25mm of rain in the GTA, but the facts don't come until after the rain (to get an accurate reading).

A hockey season to start anytime soon? Only speculation.
The same GM in place whenever the season starts? We really don't know yet. More speculation.
Nope!!! That's a fact jack!! The suits at MLSE already said it. Burke will be here the next time the Leafs play!!

Say anything you want and use any example or anything cause no matter what you say you lose!! Those that want Burke here will have him here and those that don't can... Will can't do **** cause he'll be here!!!

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10-29-2012, 10:58 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It did, for a while. Otherwise he wouldn't have lasted 5 seasons, since that's basically all that happened during his rain.



#1 reason: Burke's reluctance to fire his buddy like 2 years ago. Run and gun just doesn't fly in today's NHL. Just ask Bryzgalov. Your team also needs to be able to kill more than one out of every 2 penalty, otherwise whatever grit you have will be holding back a lot more to avoid putting the team down a man. Burke's provided plenty of special teams players over his tenure, Ronnie just didn't know what to do with them.

He's also underestimated how difficult it'd be to obtain key pieces (skilled grit, Sundin's replacement, and a decent goalie) of the puzzle with other GMs tossing around retarded cap circumventing retirement deals left and right. I'm glad he didn't get caught up in that flow, otherwise, our cap situation may be screwed for a whole generation.



20/20 hindsight, obviously. The team looked a lot better on paper than their performance indicated. Even with as much stink they generated that season, though, had we had even an average PK, we probably would have finished out of lottery position.



Do you believe Seguin would have been an All-Star already in a Leafs uniform with Bozak and Crabb on his line? I think not. The kid is surrounded by a Stanley Cup team with ridiculous depth. At this stage, Seguin is just another good player on a very good team. Kessel on the other hand is an elite scorer, who still manages to put points up while getting double teamed on most nights.



That's the problem. For a lot of people, rebuild automatically means tanking for X years for #1 picks. Burke's been acquiring the pieces he can (at a price he thinks reasonable) when they become available. Whatever he doesn't think he'll be able to get from trades / UFA, he's been drafting or getting in form of prospects. This would mostly include big bodies who can actually play the game. If they have some grit, even better. The Marlies are contenders, and a lot of the kids who helped them there are getting ready to make their contributions to the big club.

I don't mind the Liles signing, as I believe he'll play an important part in Gardiner's and Blacker's development, but the Grabo signing bugs me, too. Regardless, thanks to Burke not handcuffing himself with retirement contracts, our cap space is looking real good. Depending on how the new CBA pans out, I think Burke will be ready to make a serious run at some impact players on some cap handicapped teams.

Two more seasons sounds about right to see his management starting to bear some fruit. Yes, yes, I know, he wasn't interested in a 5-year rebuild plan, but alas, here we are.
Lol....lots of comments that do not make sense.

If we drafted Seguin why do you think he would be playing with Bozak and Crabb as his line mates?

Also who was the leading scorer on Boston last year? Seguin was ....so he was not a by product of great players but was the great player on the team. He is a better player than Kessel now (and he is 19 years old )at least in my opinion as he plays a two way game.

Just who did Burke provide to Ron that would have help his PK? A goalie would have helped the PK.....bad goaltending = bad PK.

I hate the Liles signing as we now have a player who is redundant as Gardiner can take over his role and produce better all the while. We should trade him at this season trade dead line, for what ever we can get for him.

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10-29-2012, 11:03 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I hate the Liles signing as we now have a player who is redundant as Gardiner can take over his role and produce better all the while. We should trade him at this season trade dead line, for what ever we can get for him.
And if Gardiner get's injured? With Liles we have Liles that can fill in for Gardiner if he gets injured or vice versa.

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10-29-2012, 11:06 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
First Round Picks Burke has added:

1.) Komisarek (7th)
2.) Gigurere (13th)
3.) Phaneuf (8th)
4.) Armstrong (20th) ?????
5.) Lupul (7th)
6.) Gardiner (17th)
7.) Colborne (16th)
8.) Ashton (25th)
9.) Kadri (7th)
10.) Biggs (22)
11.) Percy (25th)
12.) Reilly.
13.) Kessel (5th)
14.) JVR (2nd)
15.) Connolly

1st round picks burke has traded
1.) Seguin (2nd)
2.) Schenn (5th)
3.) Hamilton (9th)
4.)Tlusty (13th).

In less than 4 years burke has added 10 more first rounders than he has traded.

In the added group we have:
A top 6 scorer in the league and 2 time allstar.
A top pairing defenseman, all star and Norris Candidate
2 established top 6 wingers.
An all rookie team defenseman
who are currently in their prime.

We also have 2 powerforward prospects (biggs and ashton) 2 top 6 forward prospects (Kadri and Colborne), a top pairing defense prospect and at least a top 6 potential player in Percy.

Komi, Giguere, Armstrong Havent worked out the way we planned but that happens in every team draft.

In return he gave up picks that turned into Seguin a 60 point player 1x allstar with room to improve, and a top rank defenseman prospect, and a potential top 4 shutdown d, and a 3rd liner.

Burke has made his team in its prime much better, through draft and prospects. If they just drafted straight up,

Seguin has to beat: Kessel, JVR, Lupul
Hamilton and Schenn has to beat: Gardiner, Percy, Phaneuf
Tlusty Has to beat: Colborne, Kadri, Biggs, Ashton,

Who would you rather build your team around

Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf, Gardiner,Colborne, Biggs, Ashton, Percy
Or Seguin, Hamilton, Schenn Tlusty???

And thats giving a big benefit of the doubt that without Burkes trades, the entire 2 years would have turned out exactly the same....
You do realize that Burke allowed JSG to walk away for nothing. He also is still paying Armstrong to play for the Habs.

You have a nice twist on things.....here is mine:

I would rather have Seguin, Hamilton. Knight, Schenn, and Aulie.
Over Kessel, JVR and Ashton. My twist is that 3 trades do not happen.....yours?

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10-29-2012, 11:09 AM
  #165
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Nope!!! That's a fact jack!! The suits at MLSE already said it. Burke will be here the next time the Leafs play!!

Say anything you want and use any example or anything cause no matter what you say you lose!! Those that want Burke here will have him here and those that don't can... Will can't do **** cause he'll be here!!!
Burke extended Wilson and stated that he was not going anywhere.....and gone.

It only becomes a fact after it happens......right now it is only speculation. I would say that he is the GM this year....next year is at best 50/50 in my opinion.

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10-29-2012, 11:09 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
We should have a Stickied thread where the facts/evidence debunking Burke supporters myths/arguments can be found and easily referred to - so we don't have to regurgitate the same things over and over in every thread.
Sports is results oriented business, and the poor results speak for themselves.

A GM is evaluated on performance of his team, not the individual transactions to get there. Fans point to Marlies and other non NHLers as Burke's successes among his failures, but unless they impact the Leafs in the NHL standings they mean little to the organization overall or MLSE.

When Burke is fired, if he doesn't start showing tangible Leaf team improvements in the near future, not all Leaf fans will be surprised by his dismissal. Some even can see it coming already.

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10-29-2012, 11:15 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Burke extended Wilson and stated that he was not going anywhere.....and gone.

It only becomes a fact after it happens......right now it is only speculation. I would say that he is the GM this year....next year is at best 50/50 in my opinion.
I said he'd be here next time the Leafs played hockey and the FACT is he will. They will not fire Burke mid-season which is of course speculation on my part.

You can sit there and define the word fact (though I believe you should actually look up the definition as you will see it is a fact) to ease your pain or change the argument to suit your side but again no matter what you say or do Burke WILL be here and I'll be happy with all the other Burke supporters and all you pessimists and nay-sayers can continue to ***** and moan!!!

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10-29-2012, 11:15 AM
  #168
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Cool story bro, fancy words dont make your argument any stronger. Burke took this organization from the s***hole it was to a organization with decent amount of prospects and something to look forward to next year. Compare what we had before Burke and now in 2012...huge difference. Can't blame him because Reimer got a concussion and then Lupul and Liles both took injuries
Yes Disgruntled, please don't be going on, and on, with your fancy words and logic.

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10-29-2012, 11:20 AM
  #169
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Sports is results oriented business, and the poor results speak for themselves.

A GM is evaluated on performance of his team, not the individual transactions to get there. Fans point to Marlies and other non NHLers as Burke's successes among his failures, but unless they impact the Leafs in the NHL standings they mean little to the organization overall or MLSE.

When Burke is fired, if he doesn't start showing tangible Leaf team improvements in the near future, not all Leaf fans will be surprised by his dismissal. Some even can see it coming already.
Yes for the average fan the simplest way to judge is by looking at the standings.
MLSE would use a more detailed approach when reviewing his job performance.

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10-29-2012, 11:37 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Sports is results oriented business, and the poor results speak for themselves.

A GM is evaluated on performance of his team, not the individual transactions to get there. Fans point to Marlies and other non NHLers as Burke's successes among his failures, but unless they impact the Leafs in the NHL standings they mean little to the organization overall or MLSE.

When Burke is fired, if he doesn't start showing tangible Leaf team improvements in the near future, not all Leaf fans will be surprised by his dismissal. Some even can see it coming already.
Pretty confident that he'll get fired aren't ya?

I'll be you he not only finishes off his contract, he'll get an extension. Only short-sighted fans are looking to see him canned. Are you one of those?

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10-29-2012, 11:44 AM
  #171
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Sports is results oriented business, and the poor results speak for themselves.

A GM is evaluated on performance of his team, not the individual transactions to get there. Fans point to Marlies and other non NHLers as Burke's successes among his failures, but unless they impact the Leafs in the NHL standings they mean little to the organization overall or MLSE.

When Burke is fired, if he doesn't start showing tangible Leaf team improvements in the near future, not all Leaf fans will be surprised by his dismissal. Some even can see it coming already.
GM's are also alloted time to implement their plan and grow their team. Otherwise we'd see no GM last longer than a year.

A GM is evaluated on performance but only after a suitable length of time which depends on the situation he inherited. Marlies and other non-NHLers do impact the standings of the Leafs, though you can't see past your own stubborn short-sightedness to see that. You want every move Burke makes to win now while Burke is trying to win when the time is right to win and ensure the winning continues.

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10-29-2012, 11:49 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Yes for the average fan the simplest way to judge is by looking at the standings.
MLSE would use a more detailed approach when reviewing his job performance.
So how many years until performance starts to matter? Keep accepting bad teams. There are no guarantees that whatever Burke is buidling is going to be successful, not even close. So why should I accept bad teams?

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10-29-2012, 11:50 AM
  #173
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Pretty confident that he'll get fired aren't ya?

I'll be you he not only finishes off his contract, he'll get an extension. Only short-sighted fans are looking to see him canned. Are you one of those?
Looks like the vast majority are patient enough to let this play out.

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10-29-2012, 11:51 AM
  #174
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We are in good hands. Burke is a lawyer and is building this team within the league parameters. He will not back himself into a corner, and this is quiet obvious.
That's how we ended up with Tim Connolly, isn't it?

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10-29-2012, 11:53 AM
  #175
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Yes for the average fan the simplest way to judge is by looking at the standings.
MLSE would use a more detailed approach when reviewing his job performance.
Your a season ticket holder, so did you get a Larry Tanenbaum apology letter in your season ticket renewal package?

If not Tanenbaum's letter read as follows.

Quote:
“The Toronto Maple Leafs are a public trust with the greatest fans in the world,” the letter reads.

“We have fallen short of everyone’s expectations, and for that we are sorry. “We take full responsibility for how this team performs on the ice, and we make no excuses. Results are the only measure of success in sports, and the results speak for themselves".

Yours Sincerely

Lawrence M. Tanenbaum OC
Chairman of the Board MLSE
Tanenbaum in his own words, used the word "only" in his results oriented speech.

How do you interpret the owners own words for the average fan to understand?

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