HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Post your top ten players of All-time

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-28-2012, 09:22 PM
  #51
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,276
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post


Did my avatar give it away?
Your list filled with multiple players not worthy of a top ten mention gave it away really.

King Forsberg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-28-2012, 11:34 PM
  #52
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Gretzky
Howe
Orr
Hasek
Makarov
Lidstrom
Lemieux
Hull
Fedorov
Yzerman


I like two-way players.
3 Top 10 players of all time on the same team and they only managed to win 3 Cups together...They must have had awful depth players on those teams

Hawkey Town 18 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 12:45 AM
  #53
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,624
vCash: 500
This is the "consensus" list so far:

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Hull
Beliveau
Richard
Harvey
Jagr
Bourque
HM: Lidstrom, Shore

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:48 AM
  #54
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,729
vCash: 500
1) Gretzky
2) Howe
3) Orr
4) Lemieux

Absolutely convinced of that order at this time. Next 6 is hard:

5) Hull
6) Harvey
7) Beliveau
8) Hasek
9) Richard
10) Bourque

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:20 AM
  #55
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,721
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
3 Top 10 players of all time on the same team and they only managed to win 3 Cups together...They must have had awful depth players on those teams
Yeah, bad goalies tend to do that to your team's success.

Some people mention Bourque. He only won one Cup on a "mission of mercy." He must not be any good.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:50 AM
  #56
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 10,667
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Modern players only and basing it on how good they were in their primes not careers

1.Gretzky
2.Hasek
3.Pronger
4.Lemiuex
5.Jagr
6.Bure
7.Lindros
8.Ovechkin
9.Brodeur
10.Bourque/Stevens
You really consider Pronger's prime better than Lemieux?

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:52 AM
  #57
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Yeah, bad goalies tend to do that to your team's success.

Some people mention Bourque. He only won one Cup on a "mission of mercy." He must not be any good.
That's a joke in itself. It's like mocking Hasek for only having one cup while the lesser Johnny Bower had a few more.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 10-29-2012 at 11:58 AM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:02 AM
  #58
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Yes, it's all nice, but staying healthy is a skill. And Howe was a top player for 20+ years. And lets not forget that Howe also dominated his peers by the ridiculous margin during his peak. He was also by far the best player in the league during his best years. So it's not 100% clear that Orr and Lemieux had better peak. And even if they had, the difference is certainly not big enough to match extra 10 years of elite hockey that Howe has on them.
Since when?

Not to argue against Howe, who I rank 2nd only to Orr. But health as a skill? No, not at all.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:05 AM
  #59
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 10,667
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Since when?

Not to argue against Howe, who I rank 2nd only to Orr. But health as a skill? No, not at all.
Skill is not the right word, but in my opinion it definitely is a positive contribution to players legacy. I would consider Lindros higher in all-time lists if he could have stayed healthy.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:05 AM
  #60
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Exactly. I don't understand the argument that Orr and his 10 seasons overall were superior to Howe and his 26. Howe lapped the NHL in the early 1950s. We never really saw that dominance from another player until Gretzky. Orr might have been better at his peak than Howe, but it isn't by much and Howe has an entire decade after that of elite play. Most of use put Gretzky at #1. But to be honest, what I think should almost be as unanimous is Howe at #2.



Even if you ignore every player that played in the NHL prior to the 1980s (which is strange to do on a History board) that is still a weird list there. Also even if you base it on their primes. By your logic the first two are fine. But Pronger had a better prime than Lemieux and Jagr? Bure over Bourque? I assume that's Scott Stevens at #10 as well and while he's a lock cinch HHOFer he has no business on this list, not even by the standards you have.
Orr dominated the game like no other player ever could.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:13 AM
  #61
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Well if we are talking about Mario then his back problems are probably not bad luck. Chronic back pain is usually caused by doing something wrong. Like having wrong training methods (or no methods) in youth.

As with Orr and his bad knees. Yes, you can't really blame him if others went after his knees. Although there is a reason why for example Howe played so long and was pretty healthy. Players knew that if they went after him, then Howe would open their skull, next time. Nobody really wanted to mess with him. Same can't be said about Orr.
However, Mr. Howe actually did have his skull opened when he went head first into the boards early in is career. Doctors saved his life. If they didn't, we wouldn't be talking about him at all in this thread.

As for Mario's back problems, didn't the Great One also have back issues?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:17 AM
  #62
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Gretzky
Howe
Orr
Hasek
Makarov
Lidstrom
Lemieux
Hull
Fedorov
Yzerman

I like two-way players.
So how is it that Gretzky is number 1?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:44 AM
  #63
newfy
Registered User
 
newfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Since when?

Not to argue against Howe, who I rank 2nd only to Orr. But health as a skill? No, not at all.
Staying healthy isnt necessarily a skill but if you cant stay healthy with your style of play its definitely a negative. Mario even ebfore the cancer was out of shape and would miss games hurt. Howe was rough and tumble but still the most durable thing the NHL has seen.

What are the arguments for Howe over Orr. I think I have Orr at second with Howe third but see quite a few listing it opposite

newfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:52 AM
  #64
therealkoho
Gary says it's A-OK
 
therealkoho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: the Prior
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,878
vCash: 500
Orr
Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux
Hull
Richard
Shore
Potvin
Apps
Beliveau

therealkoho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 11:12 AM
  #65
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Staying healthy isnt necessarily a skill but if you cant stay healthy with your style of play its definitely a negative. Mario even ebfore the cancer was out of shape and would miss games hurt. Howe was rough and tumble but still the most durable thing the NHL has seen.

What are the arguments for Howe over Orr. I think I have Orr at second with Howe third but see quite a few listing it opposite
I have no argument for Howe over Orr. I rank Howe 2nd to Orr.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 11:22 AM
  #66
JFG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I have no argument for Howe over Orr. I rank Howe 2nd to Orr.
Then what's your argument for Howe and Orr over Gretzky?

JFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 11:48 AM
  #67
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFG View Post
Then what's your argument for Howe and Orr over Gretzky?
They were better hockey players.

Gretzky was the best offensively. But Orr was pretty close considering he was defenseman. To me leading the league in scoring as a defenseman is comparable to scoring 200 points. But Orr's game was great the whole time he was on the ice, not just when his team possessed the puck.

Howe was also very dominant offensively. Like all players of his era, he was also defensively responsible, which Gretzky was not. Howe also brought an extreme physical prescence to the ice, the complete opposite of Gretzky.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 11:52 AM
  #68
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,276
vCash: 500
I'm still waiting to see how Sentinal defends having guys like Fedorov in his top ten

King Forsberg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 01:22 PM
  #69
Hammer Time
Registered User
 
Hammer Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
It's a bit hard to compare between positions. For me there's a bunch of players in the 5-15 range that could go in almost any order.

Top 4 skaters in no particular order:
Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux
Orr

... suppose Gretzky would be #1, but Orr's 10 year peak vs. Howe's 30 year career is a bit harder to rank.

5-10 in no particular order:
Beliveau
Bourque
Harvey
Hull (Sr)
Lidstrom
Richard

If you're including goalies Roy and Hasek should fit in there somewhere, don't know who they'd bump out though.

Hammer Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 01:39 PM
  #70
lazerbullet
Registered User
 
lazerbullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
However, Mr. Howe actually did have his skull opened when he went head first into the boards early in is career. Doctors saved his life. If they didn't, we wouldn't be talking about him at all in this thread.

As for Mario's back problems, didn't the Great One also have back issues?
Yes, I know that story about Howe. That doesn't really make a difference, because in general Howe was healthy and feared tough SOB. So everyone thought twice before they tried to do something to him.

As for Gretzky. How many games he missed due to health issues? Especially in his prime years. Really not comparable with Mario, who was pretty much forced to quit because of his bad back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I have no argument for Howe over Orr. I rank Howe 2nd to Orr.
How about the fact that Howe was elite twice as long as Orr? Is that a weak argument?

lazerbullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 02:05 PM
  #71
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Orr dominated the game like no other player ever could.
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.

Big Phil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:25 PM
  #72
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.
i can buy the longevity argument for gretzky. i still go with orr, but i understand it. i can even respect howe over orr, though again i disagree.

but re: the gap between orr and the next guys (esposito and clarke) relative to gretzky's gap, from what i've seen from the handful of those bruins games, and from what i saw of gretzky, orr impacted the game more than gretzky did. gretzky had a larger offensive margin over the next guy, obviously. but from what i saw, and anecdotal evidence, orr's all-round game destroyed clarke's all round game (both what orr did on the defensive end that was far beyond what a forward-- even arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time-- could possibly do, and that orr outscored clarke in all but one of their prime years). orr vs. esposito, from '70 to '75, which was orr's offensive peak, espo only outscores him by 52 points in 18 more games (this cuts off two elite esposito years immediately before orr peaked offensively, though). being that orr was a defenseman, and that those two teammates shared the art ross trophy for eight straight years so it's difficult to determine how much credit each should get for the other's success, i'd say the gap is very large. without getting into who helped whose numbers, i'll compromise by saying orr and esposito were equals offensively. defensively, it's not even a conversation.

now breaking up what orr did as vulgarly as offensive performance and defensive performance neglects the true genius of orr, which was how he controlled the game in transition. something he did better than anyone else, ever.

gretzky controlled the game too, and was also one of the all-time great transition players. and like orr, he was one of a kind at his peak. he was at a level where even measuring the margin by which he was greater than the next guy doesn't make sense. you can't say "trottier and bossy each get you 60% of gretzky's points, so having him and bossy would be better than having one gretzky." gretzky was an anomaly and totally incomparable. you measure him by a completely different mathematical language than everybody else. but i submit that orr was even more incomparable relative to his peers.

and that's my argument for orr. most players you can measure by some metric that involves stats, accomplishments, and intangibles. howe transcends that. then a quantum leap to gretzky, who transcends even what you would measure howe by. and orr, in my opinion, was the greatest ever because what he did was even beyond what gretzky did. you can't say orr was some combination of coffey, harvey, potvin, bourque, or whomever else you'd want to jumble together to make the perfect defenseman. you could add up every individual thing you'd want from a hockey player and orr would be more than that. this is getting really long-winded, but the three greats, they all are in leagues of their own. by gretzky's league is higher than howe's, and orr's higher than gretzky's.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:58 PM
  #73
85highlander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.
Bobby Orr was better than Gretzky, of this I have zero doubt. I would never deny the fact that Gretzky is king for offensive hockey - no question and no argument. But when you consider that Gretzky also personally witnessed more goals while on the ice than any other skater during his career, and that he was a negative +/- six out of his last seven seasons, some of the career "advantage" begins to be tarnished (at least for those without the Gretzky colored glasses). Orr redefined his position and the game. He dominated his positional peers to a far greater degree than Gretzky ever did. No other defenseman has ever sniffed an Art Ross, nor could Gretzky ever dream of winning a Norris.

Ten years may not be the longest career - but no one was ever better for their peak - heck, when Orr retired, he was #1 ppg all-time,not to mention his defensive and physical play. Bobby Orr, # 1, and everyone else is still playing for second place.

85highlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:57 PM
  #74
Bexlyspeed
Registered User
 
Bexlyspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Astoria, Queens, N.Y
Country: United States
Posts: 1,093
vCash: 500
any reason nobody has denis potvin in their top 10?

he had a solid 15 year career, first defenceman to 1000 points, 3 norris trophies, and captain of 4 stanley cup winning teams. retired leading all defensemen in points, goals & assists

not as flashy as orr, but i think he was better than ray borque. any thoughts?

Bexlyspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 06:52 PM
  #75
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
any reason nobody has denis potvin in their top 10?

he had a solid 15 year career, first defenceman to 1000 points, 3 norris trophies, and captain of 4 stanley cup winning teams. retired leading all defensemen in points, goals & assists

not as flashy as orr, but i think he was better than ray borque. any thoughts?
You won't find many who put Potvin ahead of Ray Bourque. At their peaks, Bourque was nominated for (and robbed of one) Hart trophies, and he stayed at an elite level for longer than any defenseman in history. Not to take away from Potvin, he just doesn't surpass Bourque, who currently leads all defensemen in career goals, assists, and points.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.