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Number 1 defense-man needed

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Old
10-27-2012, 02:53 PM
  #51
ahmon
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While its almost impossible to acquire an elite dman in his prime.

I agree with Alflives. Canucks lack that dman that can play 30 mins and be a force in all areas of the game.

I've said this many times, canucks defense is so inconsistent because the top 4 dmen, at least 2 of them is inconsistent.

Still the canucks need more/better top 6 forwards.

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10-27-2012, 03:28 PM
  #52
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It's worth mentioning that Gillis has definitely focused on forwards with all of the early draft picks. Sauve is his only D picked in the first two rounds which seems low even factoring in the team's lack of low draft picks over the time period. While I don't have real issues with his picks per se, and he's done well with the late round D picks, I think it'd be worth looking for high potential defencemen in the early rounds and taking them over a comparable forward prospect. Don't avoid BPA or anything, but where there's two equivalent players, take the one with the potential to be a defensive stud.

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10-27-2012, 03:46 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
While its almost impossible to acquire an elite dman in his prime.

I agree with Alflives. Canucks lack that dman that can play 30 mins and be a force in all areas of the game.

I've said this many times, canucks defense is so inconsistent because the top 4 dmen, at least 2 of them is inconsistent.

Still the canucks need more/better top 6 forwards.
I just don't really understand the point of the constant griping on here about this. The Canucks are almost certainly not going to add an established, win-now 30min guy through a trade without it being a net negative for the team due to the pieces they'd have to give up. They don't draft very high, and are unlikely to get a right-now impact guy in the draft. It's just the reality of the situation.

Yeah, they should be looking at their options, but you also can't become so fixated on the one mythical thing that you ignore everything else, which is what some folks seem to be demanding.

How many guys in the league are we even talking about here? Like, serious, established elite #1 guys that will carry your team for 30 mins a game to the cup?


Last edited by RobertKron: 10-27-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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Old
10-27-2012, 03:47 PM
  #54
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Yeah, they should be looking at their options, but you also can't become so fixated on the one mythical thing that you ignore everything else, which is what some folks seem to be demanding.
Thor's a UFA isn't he? We can just sign him.

How about the Four Chinese Symbols that guard the North, West, South, and Eastern Gates? Pretty sure they're UFA and pretty good at defending things. White Tiger and Azure Dragon on the first pairing and Black Tortoise and the Vermillion Bird on the second.


(sorry)


Last edited by Wisp: 10-27-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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Old
10-27-2012, 09:17 PM
  #55
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How many guys in the league are we even talking about here? Like, serious, established elite #1 guys that will carry your team for 30 mins a game to the cup?
Yeah we're seriously talking like maybe a few guys.

Weber, Chara, Letang...

Suter(?), Boyle(?)

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10-27-2012, 09:20 PM
  #56
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10-27-2012, 10:14 PM
  #57
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On the other hand, unlike other teams, we have around four guys who can step up and temporarily play like a legitimate #1 guy at any given time.

I would rather have a Norris level defenseman than the equivalent top tier player in another position in general, but it's just the furthest thing from a pressing need for this particular team, with no secondary scoring on the wings, six solid defensemen, and no third line center.

And personally, I would rather have Hamhuis than some of the guys who would be mentioned besides the ones on the very top shelf.

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10-28-2012, 01:53 AM
  #58
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I think the key is, when a franchise Dman become available you gotta push extremely hard for them.

Guys like Pronger, Chara, and Boyle have moved...Suter was a UFA this year.

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10-28-2012, 02:04 AM
  #59
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What I would give for an in-his-prime Pronger for a cup run...

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10-28-2012, 03:32 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think the key is, when a franchise Dman become available you gotta push extremely hard for them.

Guys like Pronger, Chara, and Boyle have moved...Suter was a UFA this year.
They were all moved/signed in highly contextual scenarios, though. For instance, Chara wanted to captain a team, Suter wanted to go home, Boyle picked a team at his leisure while being forced out of Tampa (SJS got lucky) and Pronger, when traded out of Edmonton, would obviously not be sent to Vancouver.

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10-28-2012, 11:14 AM
  #61
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I'd take 2 legitamate 2nd line scoring wingers over a #1 dman.

Don't think Booth or Raymond will be cutting it.

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10-28-2012, 11:41 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think the key is, when a franchise Dman become available you gotta push extremely hard for them.

Guys like Pronger, Chara, and Boyle have moved...Suter was a UFA this year.
I'd take Hamhuis over Boyle. And that's even if Bieksa wasn't on the roster (where he fits so well with him as a defensive partner).

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10-28-2012, 02:18 PM
  #63
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Luc Bourdon would be our #1 right now...

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10-28-2012, 04:04 PM
  #64
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Luc Bourdon would be our #1 right now...
Don't do this to yourself. Amounts to fantasizing an unlikely future.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:53 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Thor's a UFA isn't he? We can just sign him.

How about the Four Chinese Symbols that guard the North, West, South, and Eastern Gates? Pretty sure they're UFA and pretty good at defending things. White Tiger and Azure Dragon on the first pairing and Black Tortoise and the Vermillion Bird on the second.


(sorry)
I was away on the weekend, as I am on all weekends, and just opened this up. I am not meaning this as an insult in any way. I laughed out loud. It's nice to start the day with humor. Thanks.

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10-29-2012, 09:59 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think the key is, when a franchise Dman become available you gotta push extremely hard for them.

Guys like Pronger, Chara, and Boyle have moved...Suter was a UFA this year.
Agreed. I have read in this thread how great the Sedins are, and how they will continue to be top players for years to come. If that is the sentiment, then moving other pieces to acquire a real #1 might have the team take a small step back now, but set them up for a big leap ahead in the near future.

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10-29-2012, 11:16 AM
  #67
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I'm not convinced that a #1 dman is essential for winning a cup. Nashville had 2 #1ds and didn't even make it to the conference final. I like the Canuck defense with 4 #2dmen (Edler is borderline #1). We had a depleted D in the SCF and still came close to winning the cup. What was missing was a sniper. No goals means no cup. Leave our d alone and get a top notch goal scorer.
BTW if people think 1 season Gardner is a #1d then Edler most certainly.

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10-29-2012, 11:19 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think the key is, when a franchise Dman become available you gotta push extremely hard for them.

Guys like Pronger, Chara, and Boyle have moved...Suter was a UFA this year.
Too bad we didn't have a chance in hell of getting Suter.

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10-29-2012, 11:35 AM
  #69
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I'm not convinced that a #1 dman is essential for winning a cup. Nashville had 2 #1ds and didn't even make it to the conference final. I like the Canuck defense with 4 #2dmen (Edler is borderline #1). We had a depleted D in the SCF and still came close to winning the cup. What was missing was a sniper. No goals means no cup. Leave our d alone and get a top notch goal scorer.
BTW if people think 1 season Gardner is a #1d then Edler most certainly.
Needing a #1 D to win the cup =/= Having a #1 D means you win the cup.

Looking at the past cup winners: Doughty, Chara, Keith, Letang, Lidstrom...

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10-29-2012, 11:58 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
It's worth mentioning that Gillis has definitely focused on forwards with all of the early draft picks. Sauve is his only D picked in the first two rounds which seems low even factoring in the team's lack of low draft picks over the time period. While I don't have real issues with his picks per se, and he's done well with the late round D picks, I think it'd be worth looking for high potential defencemen in the early rounds and taking them over a comparable forward prospect. Don't avoid BPA or anything, but where there's two equivalent players, take the one with the potential to be a defensive stud.
I've always been a believer when it comes to picking forwards in the early rounds. Personally, I think it's difficult to determine the true potential of a defenseman during their draft year, they're still too young. This is why many top defensemen we're taken in the 2nd round and beyond (ie: Chara, Weber, Keith, Letang, Edler, Enstrom etc.). When looking at forwards, most of the top forwards were all 1st round picks. There definitely is something behind using your 1st rounder on a forward, and then shooting for the moon on defensemen in the 2nd round and beyond.

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10-29-2012, 12:02 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Needing a #1 D to win the cup =/= Having a #1 D means you win the cup.

Looking at the past cup winners: Doughty, Chara, Keith, Letang, Lidstrom...
Letang was far from a #1 defenseman when they won the cup. Having a legit #1 guy is a great luxury, but not essential. I'd like to think we balance that out by playing good team defense backed by great goaltending, although our goalie situation has been a bit inconsistant in the playoffs. Again, our issue is scoring. Our defense is fine, we need a legit 1st line player to play with Kesler.

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10-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Needing a #1 D to win the cup =/= Having a #1 D means you win the cup.

Looking at the past cup winners: Doughty, Chara, Keith, Letang, Lidstrom...
Letang was 5th on the Penguins blueline in ice time in those playoffs.

Sergei Gonchar led that team in ice time and I wouldn't say he is the mythical, bona fide #1 guy people are looking for.

Bret Hedican led the Carolina Hurricanes in ice time the year they won the cup, I notice you omitted his name too.

The fact is it's possible to win the Stanley Cup without a "#1 defenseman," it happened twice during the last CBA and it might've happened a third time if the Canucks weren't playing with their three best defensemen and two best centers hurt.

It would be great to swap out say, Alex Edler for Shea Weber. But you'd have to gut the team to do so and even then there are so few of these guys that you might not find a willing partner (people have come up with fewer than 1 example per season during the last CBA of defensmen of that calibre changing teams).

The team is better off ensuring that it has great players and good depth at all positions, the better to withstand a rash of injuries during a lengthy playoff run.

Look at the Flyers, they went all in to get Pronger and now that his career is all but over they are completely screwed along the blueline. They got bent over acquiring a solid young defender and have a couple of other solid young guys (Franson and Meszaros) and then a collection of journeymen filling out the ranks. (I'm not counting Timonen as he's said he may retire).

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10-29-2012, 04:54 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
I was away on the weekend, as I am on all weekends, and just opened this up. I am not meaning this as an insult in any way. I laughed out loud. It's nice to start the day with humor. Thanks.
well, thanks for taking it in stride. I admit I was having fun at your expense.

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Old
10-29-2012, 05:01 PM
  #74
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Yeah, it may not be impossible to win the cup without a legit number one, but there's no doubt it helps a lot.

Obviously we're not going to throw in the towel untill we get a legit number 1.

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10-29-2012, 05:14 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Look at the Flyers, they went all in to get Pronger and now that his career is all but over they are completely screwed along the blueline. They got bent over acquiring a solid young defender and have a couple of other solid young guys (Franson and Meszaros) and then a collection of journeymen filling out the ranks. (I'm not counting Timonen as he's said he may retire).
Look at Pronger's career - a sure fire Hall of Famer. Only one cup (so far) and that team he was on had an arguably better Hall of Famer on D.

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