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Toronto Maple Leafs - Calgary Flames

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:19 AM
  #101
pdd
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
You don't deal your best center which is a position of weakness for a dman which is a position of strength. Makes zero sense and is flat out awful for the Leafs and that's without even addressing value.
Hence my Stajan proposal. Stajan did better offensively than Grabovski in Toronto with comparable wingers to what Grabovski played with last year.

In 2012 Kessel scored a team-leading 55 points in 70 games; Stajan had 41 in 55. Grabovski wasn't bad with 35 in 59, but that's still less in more. Stajan's also miles ahead defensively and on faceoffs - and they're the same age. Stajan is cheaper, too.

I know if the lockout were to last he entire season, and I had the choice of one or the other to replace Val Filppula on the Wings if Filppula were to sign away, I'd pick Stajan.

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10-29-2012, 10:16 AM
  #102
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I'd love to get Stajan back on the Leafs, but not at the price of Grabo. If we had a true #1 centre, having a core of whoever that is, Grabo, Stajan, and Steckel/McClement is solid. The only issue there is the #1 would have to be a righty because Grabo/Stajan/McClement or Steckel are all lefties.

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10-29-2012, 05:40 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
You don't deal your best center which is a position of weakness for a dman which is a position of strength. Makes zero sense and is flat out awful for the Leafs and that's without even addressing value.
D is a position of strength for the Leafs? How do you figure that? Seems more like a weakness.

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10-29-2012, 06:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
D is a position of strength for the Leafs? How do you figure that? Seems more like a weakness.
You seem to be confusing defense with goaltending.

Phaneuf
Gardiner
Liles
Holzer
Gunnar
Komisarek

etc

We are not in need of dmen. This doesn't even include guys in the minors like Rielly,Finn,Percy,Blacker yadda yadda yadda. It is a position of strength within the organization.

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10-29-2012, 06:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hence my Stajan proposal. Stajan did better offensively than Grabovski in Toronto with comparable wingers to what Grabovski played with last year.

In 2012 Kessel scored a team-leading 55 points in 70 games; Stajan had 41 in 55. Grabovski wasn't bad with 35 in 59, but that's still less in more. Stajan's also miles ahead defensively and on faceoffs - and they're the same age. Stajan is cheaper, too.

I know if the lockout were to last he entire season, and I had the choice of one or the other to replace Val Filppula on the Wings if Filppula were to sign away, I'd pick Stajan.
The Stajan you're talking about hasn't done that in a long time. Grabovski is easily better.

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10-29-2012, 06:51 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hence my Stajan proposal. Stajan did better offensively than Grabovski in Toronto with comparable wingers to what Grabovski played with last year.

In 2012 Kessel scored a team-leading 55 points in 70 games; Stajan had 41 in 55. Grabovski wasn't bad with 35 in 59, but that's still less in more. Stajan's also miles ahead defensively and on faceoffs - and they're the same age. Stajan is cheaper, too.

I know if the lockout were to last he entire season, and I had the choice of one or the other to replace Val Filppula on the Wings if Filppula were to sign away, I'd pick Stajan.
Stajan was a meh center who made the most of who he played with i.e a product of who he got to play with. He was a guy who racked up assists by default. Grabovski is twice the player Stajan ever was or will be. Are you telling me you'd rather have Matt Stajan over Grabovski?

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10-29-2012, 07:32 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Stajan was a meh center who made the most of who he played with i.e a product of who he got to play with. He was a guy who racked up assists by default. Grabovski is twice the player Stajan ever was or will be. Are you telling me you'd rather have Matt Stajan over Grabovski?
I am in no way saying todays stajan is as good as todays Grabovski as that is obviously wrong but in 08-09 when on the same team Stajan averaged 2.5 points per 60 minutes 5v5 and 3.71 points per 60 pp minutes and he played an average of 2:20 on the pk a game.
The next year while splitting time between the Leafs and Flames he had 1.31 points per 60 minutes 5v5 and 4 points per 60 min on the pp while averaging 1:18 on the pk.

2 years ago Grabovski had 2.1 points per 60 5v5 and 3.54 points per 60 on the pp while averaging 1 minute on the pk a game. Last season Grabovski had 2.18 points per 60 minute 5v5 and 3.87 points per 60 on the pp and he played an average of 17 seconds short handed.

Simply put when Grabo got his contract extension he was the same player Stajan was when he got his on the Flames. Obviously went fell off put the fact remains they were the same player at their peak except Grabo should remain this way for quite some time.

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Old
10-30-2012, 09:33 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Stajan was a meh center who made the most of who he played with i.e a product of who he got to play with. He was a guy who racked up assists by default. Grabovski is twice the player Stajan ever was or will be. Are you telling me you'd rather have Matt Stajan over Grabovski?
He made the most of who he played with? That's a good thing.
A product of who he played with? Not if you consider that he led the Leafs in points in 2008-09 and in 2009-10 (pre-trade) and his 09-10 pace was a better PPG than any Leaf posted full season numbers. He slowed down in Calgary but still would have been #1 in Toronto.

And he still has that kind of offensive ablity, he's just not used in that role.

As far as preferring Stajan to Grabovski... if I can have my choice of two centers who are the same age and similar skill level offensively, but one of them is strong defensively, I'll take the defensively skilled one. That might be because I'm a Wings fan and two-way centers are how the Wings have built their team for 30 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Ball Hockey View Post
I'd love to get Stajan back on the Leafs, but not at the price of Grabo. If we had a true #1 centre, having a core of whoever that is, Grabo, Stajan, and Steckel/McClement is solid. The only issue there is the #1 would have to be a righty because Grabo/Stajan/McClement or Steckel are all lefties.
Well, you've already traded Bozak in this scenario; Grabo makes more sense as a move to wing than Bozak. It also means one of McClement/Steckel is either on the wing or traded.

I've heard talk that JVR will be put at center. If true, this provides that #1 center. Alternatively, Lupul was originally a center and could be put back in the middle between JVR and Kessel. He's also a righty. The big problem there is that neither of them can seem to win faceoffs.

That leaves Grabo, Bozak, Connolly, Lombardi, Steckel, and McClement as centers who are competing for the 2-4 jobs. Making my original Jbo/Stajan/Backlund for Grabo/Bozak/Gunnarsson deal turns the center depth after JVR/Lupul into Stajan, Connolly, Backlund, Lombardi, Steckel, and McClement. Connolly, Lombardi, and Backlund are the likely wingers of the three as they're the sub-50% faceoff men and their games aren't particularly reliant on playing center for success.

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:56 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Badger25 View Post
You can take Conoly or Lombardi, Grabovski is to valuable to the Leafs
OP was a Leafs fan. You are offering him assets he already has.

From a Flames perspective I think this is fair(ish) value, but I think I'd rather not. Blueline is enough of a mess already and Grabovski isn't the answer we've been looking for.

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10-31-2012, 04:56 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
You seem to be confusing defense with goaltending.

Phaneuf
Gardiner
Liles
Holzer
Gunnar
Komisarek
Great, we have a bunch of guys who are going to be forced to play over their heads.

Phaneuf is just too stupid to be relied upon in match-up situations. None of the others are even close to top-pairing defenders.

Bouwmeester would land in Tornoto and instantly become the #1 defenseman.

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10-31-2012, 10:03 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Boumeester for Grabovski. Flames are lacking actual top 6 centers, and so are we but we also need dmen.
Not going to put a Flames roster as I would have no clue to it.

Lupul-Connolly/Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Kadri-MacArthur
Frattin-Bozak/Connolly-Kulemin
Brown-McClement-D'Amigo/Devane

Phaneuf-Boumeester
Gardiner-Gunnarson
Liles-Holzer

Deal?
ever seen JBoy play or is he still running on the myth that got him 6m per

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10-31-2012, 12:30 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
ever seen JBoy play or is he still running on the myth that got him 6m per
That's the same myth that has him averaging over 25 minutes of ice per game in a 700+ game career, right?

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10-31-2012, 01:29 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Dylbot View Post
I can't speak for the Flames, but the bolded statement is definitely not true for the Leafs. With Grabovski, Bozak, Connelly, Lombardi, McClement and Steckel the Leafs actually have an abundance of NHL centres, just not what most would consider to be a #1 centre.
Depth??? Over payed, 4th line to AHL quality centers does not equal depth

Why not add Mike Zigomanis to that list

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10-31-2012, 01:30 PM
  #114
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Its funny to see leaf fans talk about Bouwmeester is living off past reputation (which he is) when Dion Phaneuf is your captain hahaha

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10-31-2012, 01:43 PM
  #115
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There's no way Calgary trades Jay-Bo as he finally found himself a decent d-man to pair up with. Also if he goes to Toronto, it would make things a lot worse for him.

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10-31-2012, 01:50 PM
  #116
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Bouwmeester would instantly become Toronto's best Dman, Leafs should take this and run.

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10-31-2012, 02:28 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by FoppaForsberg View Post
Bouwmeester would instantly become Toronto's best Dman, Leafs should take this and run.
If Jbo was misused under Sutter I would hate to see what Randy Carlyle does to him. Jbo is most effective when not playing a shut down role, Calgary finally has a coach who likes to use offensive players offensively I doubt Jbo accepts a trade to some where he can't play his game.

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11-01-2012, 10:40 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's the same myth that has him averaging over 25 minutes of ice per game in a 700+ game career, right?
The guy is the vanilla pudding of NHL Dmen who's always been oversold as Creme Brulee

between you and I coach, he is no more worth a 6.7m as a cap hit then is Phaneuf's 6.5m at the present time. Truthfully though I'd much rather have Phaneuf on the blue-line then a guy who doesn't bring much of anything other then minutes. Gunnarsson already does that for the Leafs at the right amount of dollars!

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11-01-2012, 11:19 AM
  #119
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If Bouw went to Toronto he would instantly become the biggest Goat in the league, if there is one thing Bouw doesn't do well, its performing under pressure.

This concept of Bouw to Toronto will never work for that reason.

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