HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Why Paul Kelly thinks expansion would help end NHL lockout

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-29-2012, 03:16 PM
  #1
LEAFS FAN 4 EVER
GO LEAFS GO
 
LEAFS FAN 4 EVER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,775
vCash: 500
Why Paul Kelly thinks expansion would help end NHL lockout

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...L-lockout.html

LEAFS FAN 4 EVER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:08 PM
  #2
BruinsBtn
HFBoards Sponsor
 
BruinsBtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,543
vCash: 500
What were the players thinking firing this guy?

He's all about creative solutions to grow the game that will help both sides.

A pox on the NHLPA.

BruinsBtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #3
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 31,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
What were the players thinking firing this guy?

He's all about creative solutions to grow the game that will help both sides.

A pox on the NHLPA.
He was "too chummy" with Gary Bettman.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:18 PM
  #4
Hanklite*
Bettman's Bro
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: TO
Country: Canada
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
Makes perfect sense, doubt it even gets discussed.

Hanklite* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:18 PM
  #5
Bill_Crosby
Registered User
 
Bill_Crosby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,804
vCash: 500
The NHL should hire him for lulz

Bill_Crosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:20 PM
  #6
BruinsBtn
HFBoards Sponsor
 
BruinsBtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
He was "too chummy" with Gary Bettman.
Because everyone knows the best way to get a good deal is to be the biggest SOB possible.

BruinsBtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:57 PM
  #7
txomisc
Registered User
 
txomisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 8,499
vCash: 500
The 10 year cba thing makes too much sense. You can gradually reduce the players % and still manage to make it so the distribution is 50/50 over the entire life of the deal.

txomisc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 04:59 PM
  #8
Do Make Say Think
Soul & Onward
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,484
vCash: 256
The PA needs to fire Fehr, apologize to all the fans and especially to Mr Kelly and hire the man.

Do Make Say Think is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:02 PM
  #9
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
What were the players thinking firing this guy?

He's all about creative solutions to grow the game that will help both sides.

A pox on the NHLPA.
Because he was being too nice to the NHL and was going to avoid a lockout.

HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:04 PM
  #10
jkrdevil
UnRegistered User
 
jkrdevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 30,380
vCash: 500
Well expansion fees are not ever going to count as HRR because it is a one time fee. Basically revenues would go drastically up one year and then drastically back down which would cause havoc on the cap and result in high escrow.

However, a portion of expansion fees could be used as that "make good" fund in the owners proposal.

jkrdevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:07 PM
  #11
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,265
vCash: 500
If Kelly was in charge of the NHLPA, there would have been a deal in place by September.

This shows the agenda the NHLPA heads had 3 years ago. Disturbing.

HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:08 PM
  #12
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Crosby View Post
The NHL should hire him for lulz
Would be lolsy and trololol worthy.

HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:26 PM
  #13
Swarez
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 636
vCash: 500
-so he wants a step down in split for 53-54% for a few years, down to 50%- Hasn't the league already said no to this? Isn't that why we don't have a deal, both sides have said long term 50-50% is acceptable, its just how they get there. It can go under 50% for players if revenues grow, doubt players ever go for that.

-Why would any owner especially a poor club or Toronto be ok with giving up half of expansion fee's, a one time infusion of 10Million or 20 Million is a big difference. I don't think we will ever see this be part of HRR in our lifetime. I'm a pretty pro player guy, but this is something owners shouldn't give up.

-He thinks the 3.3 Billion in revenue will get to $5 Billion in 1 or 2 years. A 35% increase because of expansion, new Canadian TV deal. Canadian teams will help, but really just making it harder for poor teams to compete because Canadians teams will just spend to cap. Wouldn't a better solution be to charge a relocation fee for teams coming to Canada, you wouldn't be watering down your product any more.

He just seems like an optimist, with none of his ideas really workable to either group.

Swarez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 05:29 PM
  #14
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,048
vCash: 50
If he was still with the PA, we'd be watching hockey tonight.

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 06:01 PM
  #15
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarez99 View Post
-so he wants a step down in split for 53-54% for a few years, down to 50%- Hasn't the league already said no to this? Isn't that why we don't have a deal, both sides have said long term 50-50% is acceptable, its just how they get there. It can go under 50% for players if revenues grow, doubt players ever go for that.
No the PA has never proposed ANYTHING using a % to determine the split. Everything the PA has proposed is with a de-linked/fixed number and the reduction in the split has come due to growth.

And what he also said, is that they average the life of the deal at 50%. The PA's offers have had the life around 52-53%.

So he's proposing something like this: 54, 52, 50, 50, 49, 48, 48, 49, 50, 50. Thus giving the PA time to lower the split and NOT affecting players via escrow, while giving the NHL 4 years at under 50% to make some money, while having a 50% average split over the life of the deal.

But if the PA isn't able to offer 55, 53, 50 (in % terms), then there's no chance in hell they'd offer or accept something like what Kelly proposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarez99 View Post
-Why would any owner especially a poor club or Toronto be ok with giving up half of expansion fee's, a one time infusion of 10Million or 20 Million is a big difference. I don't think we will ever see this be part of HRR in our lifetime. I'm a pretty pro player guy, but this is something owners shouldn't give up.
Poor clubs might have some concerns over this, but Toronto makes 80m plus by playing. If they can get a favorable CBA AND play, then they come out way ahead, over not playing and still getting that nice CBA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarez99 View Post
-He thinks the 3.3 Billion in revenue will get to $5 Billion in 1 or 2 years. A 35% increase because of expansion, new Canadian TV deal. Canadian teams will help, but really just making it harder for poor teams to compete because Canadians teams will just spend to cap. Wouldn't a better solution be to charge a relocation fee for teams coming to Canada, you wouldn't be watering down your product any more.

He just seems like an optimist, with none of his ideas really workable to either group.
I think 5B in 2-3 years is pretty optimistic, however in 4-7 years it's realistic with the growth the league has had over the life of the last CBA. Add in two teams in Canada (say Toronto #2 and Quebec City), and that will only shorten that time - especially with a new Canadian TV deal being needed. If there was ever a time to expand into Canada, sometime before that deal is up is the perfect time to really cash in - both expansion fee's and with a new TV deal.

Yes I think he's an optimist, however I don't think those idea's he proposed would be unworkable issues. The PA doesn't seem to have major issues with giving up some concessions (% split - there's obvious issues with the UFA/contract stuff), but how they go about it. The fact that Fehr is such an ass that he has to 'win' and can't be bothered to negotiate using a % (55% with 4% growth covers the PAs share) is absolutely retarded, and is one of the main reasons we're not watching hockey.

__________________
"Itís not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, itís as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."

Last edited by Riptide: 10-29-2012 at 06:23 PM.
Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 07:04 PM
  #16
Bonzai12
Registered User
 
Bonzai12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver CO
Country: United States
Posts: 6,751
vCash: 767
Send a message via Yahoo to Bonzai12
Expansion's a terrible option IMO

You already have probably at least 6 teams that are in dire straits money wise. You add 2 teams and bring in more money for the short term, but you'll be in new questionable markets and may have 8 teams in dire straits the next time the CBA comes around. You can't just keep patching league financials with franchise fees. You can only dilute the product so much.

Bonzai12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 07:19 PM
  #17
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Expansion's a terrible option IMO

You already have probably at least 6 teams that are in dire straits money wise. You add 2 teams and bring in more money for the short term, but you'll be in new questionable markets and may have 8 teams in dire straits the next time the CBA comes around. You can't just keep patching league financials with franchise fees. You can only dilute the product so much.
Toronto/Southern Ontario or Quebec City is a questionable market? When Basillie was trying to get a team into Hamilton, Forbes indicated it would be (overnight) one of the top 3 (or was it 5? - can't remember now) most valuable franchises. QC wouldn't be any worse off than Ottawa today. Their issue last time around was a crappy dollar and the requirement for a new rink.

Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 07:53 PM
  #18
Hamilton Tigers
Registered User
 
Hamilton Tigers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,293
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
When Basillie was trying to get a team into Hamilton, Forbes indicated it would be (overnight) one of the top 3 (or was it 5? - can't remember now) most valuable franchises.
Not Forbes. It was the NHL's own experts that testified a team in Hamilton (southern Ontario) would be in top 5 revenue.


http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/693658
Quote:
Hamilton would be among top five in revenue, NHL admits

Paul Kelly was saying this when he was heading the NHLPA and sought to get the NHLPA more involved with the business decisions.

Quote:
“You know, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec City, perhaps Halifax if they had an arena that could sustain an NHL team. But I think there are locations in Canada that would strongly support the NHL game.”

Sitting in downtown Toronto, I can feel the tremors from the ACC all the way to NHL head office…

Kelly is smart, there is no question about that. I can promise you that the Hamilton comment didn’t just slip out of him mouth. This was an intentional inclusion; you can bet on it.
http://torontosportsmedia.com/toront...-to-canada/208


Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 10-29-2012 at 08:21 PM.
Hamilton Tigers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:37 PM
  #19
mikelvl
Registered User
 
mikelvl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,811
vCash: 487
For all the deserved abuse the owners are taking, the NHLPA probably guaranteed this lockout when they canned this guy. Brutal, brutal mistake. Idiots really.

mikelvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:41 PM
  #20
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,832
vCash: 500
I mean zero disrespect to Hamilton, because I don't doubt how successful a franchise there would be...

... but if the NHL could accurately project revenues, we wouldn't be in this mess. They failed to project the 30 teams revenues out over the length of the CBA and see where the 57% HRR split CBA would end up in 2012.

KevFu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:44 PM
  #21
Chiuozu*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 38
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelvl View Post
For all the deserved abuse the owners are taking, the NHLPA probably guaranteed this lockout when they canned this guy. Brutal, brutal mistake. Idiots really.
The players wanted to go to War, not a negotiating table.

Chiuozu* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:48 PM
  #22
Felonious Python
Moderator
Purple Squirrel
 
Felonious Python's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The Hot Seat
Posts: 13,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelvl View Post
For all the deserved abuse the owners are taking, the NHLPA probably guaranteed this lockout when they canned this guy. Brutal, brutal mistake. Idiots really.
If you look at it from a certain perspective, who is more willing to break during negotiations: the guy who is characterized as having a passion for the game, or the one without?

Despite this, I've always felt firing Paul Kelly was a mistake. At least give him an opportunity to help cancel a season if you're going to hire him.

Felonious Python is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:50 PM
  #23
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I mean zero disrespect to Hamilton, because I don't doubt how successful a franchise there would be... but if the NHL could accurately project revenues, we wouldn't be in this mess.
... their successful despite themselves Kev. Dead simple no-brainers they dont "get". Hamilton is a classic example, Winnipeg another, for several years the NHL claiming the MTS was too small and so on & so forth. Billions of dollars spent elsewhere in Southern Ontario since Copps opened in 1985, missed opportunities; lost & gone forever to the league. Gross incompetence.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 08:58 PM
  #24
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,170
vCash: 500
Why expand when you have a perfectly awful market "Phoenix" just waiting to be relocated or contracted?

WingedWheel1987 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2012, 09:05 PM
  #25
NORiculous
Registered User
 
NORiculous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
The players have ZERO business sence and this article is another proof of that. Kelly has a unique vision and this is why Bettman "likes" him: they could speak and understand what the heck they were saying.

Good post.

NORiculous is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.