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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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10-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #276
Krazy
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You're looking at the team with blue and white coloured glasses.

For example, you look at Phaneuf and say "a 26 year old all star who is a top pairing d and former norris finalist."
But the rest of the league would say "A dramatically overpaid defenseman whose Norris years are far behind him".

You look at Lupul and say "a 28 year old all star who was top 10 in scoring before an injury."
But the rest of the league would say "A player who seemed to find chemistry with Kessel last season, but has proven over and over again to be inconsistent and injury prone".
etc.
Once you look at every player on the team with that bias, of course the team looks pretty good (never mind finishing 5th last in the standings)

If fans of every team looked at their players with such bias, everybody would think that their GM is a genius and should be extended.
Ok.... But its more logical to look at players who have never played an NHL game and draft picks that we never had and assume that these players are destined for greatness?????

Again, this is the point that I am making. The players that toronto has picked have had success.

Dion Phaneuf was rated higher by THN than MALKIN! Kessel was picked by 10 gms over CROSBY in a 2005 poll, Lupul was a superstar when he scored 4 goals in a playoff game... JVR was untouchable when he dominated a playoff series.

Now these players are no longer shiny toys, but are still excellent. Of course people look at draft picks as cant miss superstars that they will love for ever and ever, but my characterization is unrealistic? at least these players have achieved what I said they have, instead of just assuming that some random players would be better..

Again, please go through 2009-2012 first rounds and show me what teams have done better....

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10-29-2012, 09:54 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Ok so from 2009-2012, which team has added more young talent.

Edmonton... probably... other than that, who?

1.) 24 year old all star 4x30g olympian who was a 6th in league scoring after an injury.
2.) a 26 year old all star who is a top pairing d and former norris finalist.
3.) a 28 year old all star who was top 10 in scoring before an injury.
4.) a 21 year old NHL all rookie team defenseman.
5.) a 23 year old 2nd overall pick who has dominated in the playoffs already.

Not to mention prospects like reilly, biggs Ashton, Colborne, Kadri, Percy. Reilly looks like a blue chip D, and even if 2 of the other turn out to be servicable NHL players, that is an unbelievable haul.....

Bottom line is, if burke tanked the last 4 years, do you think he would have a better group of young talent now????
Not even Edmonton really. They are a team full of elite level forward prospects and Schultz. No real defense, no goaltending, just 4 guts who can put the puck in the net.

After four years of being terrible, they have some offense, that's it.

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10-29-2012, 09:54 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Why?
We were bottom 10 four years in a row... while trying to win!!!! and now don't have as bright of a future as them.

That's WAY more embarrassing...
Exactly. Trying to win. The exact opposite of what Edmonton's team plan was. You see the patent absurdity of the comparison.

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10-29-2012, 09:56 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Where were you guys when Burke was yapping non stop about how he could build a contending team in under 5 years ? Oh wait i just remembered you were right behind him backing him up all the way and attacking anyone who dared say he couldn't do it .
Nawh man actually I was over at PPP where things made sense :|

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10-29-2012, 09:57 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Ok.... But its more logical to look at players who have never played an NHL game and draft picks that we never had and assume that these players are destined for greatness?????

Again, this is the point that I am making. The players that toronto has picked have had success.

Dion Phaneuf was rated higher by THN than MALKIN! Kessel was picked by 10 gms over CROSBY in a 2005 poll, Lupul was a superstar when he scored 4 goals in a playoff game... JVR was untouchable when he dominated a playoff series.

Now these players are no longer shiny toys, but are still excellent. Of course people look at draft picks as cant miss superstars that they will love for ever and ever, but my characterization is unrealistic? at least these players have achieved what I said they have, instead of just assuming that some random players would be better..

Again, please go through 2009-2012 first rounds and show me what teams have done better....
In the four drafts, instead of Seguin, Hamilton, Kadri and Rielly, Burke landed Biggs, Percy, Kadri and Rielly. Oh, and a guy named Kessel. So much further behind......

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10-29-2012, 09:59 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Does it help that 3 of them were All Stars this year while a 4th was all rookie and a 5th in the early going looks like he'll be dynamite?
Lupul had a career year, I do not consider him an all star at all. If he duplicates his year I would then.

In my opinion we had one player that was an all star and that was Kessel. When the fans vote it is not based on skill and ability at all.

Gardiner appears to be a very good player thus far.

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10-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Lupul had a career year, I do not consider him an all star at all. If he duplicates his year I would then.

In my opinion we had one player that was an all star and that was Kessel. When the fans vote it is not based on skill and ability at all.

Gardiner appears to be a very good player thus far.
I strongly disagree. Will Lupul repeat that season? Probably not, but he was an all star without question last season. And hate on Phaneuf all you want, he belonged there as well.

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10-29-2012, 10:02 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Lupul had a career year, I do not consider him an all star at all. If he duplicates his year I would then.

In my opinion we had one player that was an all star and that was Kessel. When the fans vote it is not based on skill and ability at all.

Gardiner appears to be a very good player thus far.
No Phaneuf?

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10-29-2012, 10:05 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Remember when JFJ acquired and filled his post lockout teams with former mostly Top 10 picks in previous drafts?

Eric Lindros - (round 1 #1 overall 1991 NHL Entry Draft)
Jason Allison - (round 1 #17 overall 1993 NHL Entry Draft)
Jeff O'Neal - (round 1 #5 overall 1994 NHL Entry Draft)
Luke Richardson - (round 1 #7 overall 1987 NHL Entry Draft)
Mark Bell - (round 1 #8 overall 1998 NHL Entry Draft)
Boyd Devereaux - (round 1 #6 overall 1996 NHL Entry Draft)
Chad Kilger - (round 1 #4 overall 1995 NHL Entry Draft)

Wow look at all those high picks !!!! No GM had acquired more former 1st rounders during that time 2005-2007.

PS.. That doesn't even include pre-lockout HHOF players like Brian Leetch and Ron Francis etc etc in JFJ body of work collecting former 1st rounders.
So funny.....and true!

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10-29-2012, 10:06 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Not even Edmonton really. They are a team full of elite level forward prospects and Schultz. No real defense, no goaltending, just 4 guts who can put the puck in the net.

After four years of being terrible, they have some offense, that's it.
Schultz
Klefbom
Musil
Gernat
Marincin
Teubert

Certainly, Rielly and Gardiner are up there is Schultz, but they have several defenders who've played the World Junior Championships.

They focused more on the 1st. overall forwards, so they built differently, but how does that make the Leafs focus on defense correct?

If the Marlies are indicative of building 20 year old Marincin with 2 goals and 2 assists in 7 games must be a positive right?

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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10-29-2012, 10:08 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Really difficult to say, but I think Colorado has done pretty good adding these players.

Duchene, O'Reilly, Elliott, Barrie, Landeskog, Downie, Johnson, McGinn, Varlamov, Olver in that timeframe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Not even Edmonton really. They are a team full of elite level forward prospects and Schultz. No real defense, no goaltending, just 4 guts who can put the puck in the net.

After four years of being terrible, they have some offense, that's it.
You don't think the Avs look pretty good?

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10-29-2012, 10:09 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
In the four drafts, instead of Seguin, Hamilton, Kadri and Rielly, Burke landed Biggs, Percy, Kadri and Rielly. Oh, and a guy named Kessel. So much further behind......
Even more simply: (ignoring the brutal logic that a completely different teams would have identical results)

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.

So on the simplest level we traded Seguin, Hamilton, Knight for Kessel, Gardiner, Colborne

That is at least even, if not I could easily see toronto winning that one. Add in Ashton, Percy, Biggs, as prospects and Phaneuf/Lupul as forwards we are WELL ahead.

heck you could even argue that Bozak (25) and Mac (26)are much better than the average first rounder anyway.

I dont love all the burke has done (Keeping liles when we have too many pmd, Trading Kubina for Scraps) but for the most part he has done a fantastic job of rebuilding the leafs.

His only crime is not living in dream world where prospects never have slumps, get injured and all develop 2 way games.....

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10-29-2012, 10:11 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Schultz
Klefbom
Musil
Gernat
Marincin
Teubert

Certainly, Rielly and Gardiner are up there is Schultz, but they have several defenders who've played the World Junior Championships.

They focused more on the 1st. overall forwards, so they built differently, but how does that make the Leafs focus on defense correct?

If the Marlies are indicative of building 20 year old Marincin with 2 goals and 2 assists in 7 games must be a positive right?
I'm saying the Oilers are not as stacked as some make them out to be. I like their d prospects, but they are no more impressive than our forward prospects.

I'm saying this notion that we have nothing to show for our struggles while they are stacked is ridiculous.

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10-29-2012, 10:13 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Nawh man actually I was over at PPP where things made sense :|
You should go back and look at some of the old threads , back then it was all the rage to attack posters who didn't believe in Burkes under 5 years for cup contention plan .

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10-29-2012, 10:14 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
You don't think the Avs look pretty good?
They look fine. Does that change the fact that the Oil have no d or goalie?

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10-29-2012, 10:16 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
You should go back and look at some of the old threads , back then it was all the rage to attack posters who didn't believe in Burkes under 5 years for cup contention plan .
Many people are wrong every day on these boards. That's why we're on these boards, not building professional hockey teams.

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10-29-2012, 10:17 PM
  #292
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Oh sorry I forgot, the other complaint is that burke thought it wouldnt take 5 years to make the playoffs.

so he miscalculated in 2009..... Ok, big deal, People wanted youth and promise and they are getting it..... Why hold someone to a quote of 5 years ago?

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10-29-2012, 10:18 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Even more simply: (ignoring the brutal logic that a completely different teams would have identical results)

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.

So on the simplest level we traded Seguin, Hamilton, Knight for Kessel, Gardiner, Colborne

That is at least even, if not I could easily see toronto winning that one. Add in Ashton, Percy, Biggs, as prospects and Phaneuf/Lupul as forwards we are WELL ahead.

heck you could even argue that Bozak (25) and Mac (26)are much better than the average first rounder anyway.

I dont love all the burke has done (Keeping liles when we have too many pmd, Trading Kubina for Scraps) but for the most part he has done a fantastic job of rebuilding the leafs.

His only crime is not living in dream world where prospects never have slumps, get injured and all develop 2 way games.....
I tend not to do that anymore because apparently we can only include draft picks when comParing talent.

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10-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
In the four drafts, instead of Seguin, Hamilton, Kadri and Rielly, Burke landed Biggs, Percy, Kadri and Rielly. Oh, and a guy named Kessel. So much further behind......
Percy and Biggs cost us VS/Tlusty/39th and the original 30th was part of the payment for Kabs so i have no idea why you'd ignore the added costs to aquire these two prospects .

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10-29-2012, 10:22 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Percy and Biggs cost us VS/Tlusty/39th and the original 30th was part of the payment for Kabs so i have no idea why you'd ignore the added costs to aquire these two prospects .
I cleared it up above. I only included actual draft picks. We can go over all the players Burke has traded/signed/drafted vs those hes shown the door if you like, although I think that actually helps me further.

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10-29-2012, 10:27 PM
  #296
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I hate Brian Burke and his stupid philosophies! Get rid of him already! There must be at least one decent GM who's looking for a team right now!
I don't agree with all of his philosophies. Actually in the past I have argued against 2 of his main philosophies.

I really wish Fletcher had not made his last deal. I think Steen beside KEssel would work. And we would really see how much BUrke has effected the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The vast majority of players that have a lengthy career in the nhl are drafted in the 1st round.
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/pro...ft_success.htm

So to claim that "Burke acquired a lot of players that were at some point drafted in the 1st round" is pretty much the same as saying "Burke acquired a lot of players".

When your team finishes 5th last after a four year "rebuild"... and your prospects are rated lower by BOTH the hockey news and HF...
well... Burke supporters have to at that point fall back on facts and statistics that don't really mean anything whatsoever.

Who cares that Burkes team sucks and we finish 5th last. Burkes... uh... hmmm... let me research some meaningless fact.... uhhh.... ok... found it... BURKE'S ACQUIRED A LOT OF PLAYERS THAT WERE DRAFTED IN THE 1ST ROUND.
Nevermind that EVERY team is largely made up of players that were drafted in the 1st round....
Ya well let's reference Fletchers last move where he sent 2 1st rounders to STL for Stempniak. That trade is only a micro-mili-tiny bit worse than the Rask for Raycroft deal.

Young Former 1st rounders have value. Right before Burke took over Fletcher traded 2 1sts for Stempniak. Yet Burke gets crucified for the Kessel deal.

Give me a break.

You cant hold up Seguin and Hamilton without holding up Steen and Colaicovo and Stempniak and Kessel all at the same time.

Burke isn't grabbing 33yr old 1st rounders. He is acquiring players that are at the beginning of their carreers/

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10-29-2012, 10:28 PM
  #297
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Ok so from 2009-2012, which team has added more young talent.

Edmonton... probably... other than that, who?

1.) 24 year old all star 4x30g olympian who was a 6th in league scoring after an injury.
2.) a 26 year old all star who is a top pairing d and former norris finalist.
3.) a 28 year old all star who was top 10 in scoring before an injury.
4.) a 21 year old NHL all rookie team defenseman.
5.) a 23 year old 2nd overall pick who has dominated in the playoffs already.

Not to mention prospects like reilly, biggs Ashton, Colborne, Kadri, Percy. Reilly looks like a blue chip D, and even if 2 of the other turn out to be servicable NHL players, that is an unbelievable haul.....

Bottom line is, if burke tanked the last 4 years, do you think he would have a better group of young talent now????
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
They look fine. Does that change the fact that the Oil have no d or goalie?
The question was other than the Oilers who ...

If you look at the Avs and see how many under young players (25 and under) who they've added, and who are actual NHL players I'd have to say they've done better.

But perhaps if we give the Leafs more time they'll be able to match that, if Rielly and Granberg can make the NHL.

Maybe should look at the Kings, Kopitar is the same age as Kessel, and Quick is only 26.

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10-29-2012, 10:30 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Many people are wrong every day on these boards. That's why we're on these boards, not building professional hockey teams.
So why the anger at the anti Burke crew when they were proven right ?

Why are the supporters ignoring what they believed previously to defend Burke and are now pleading for patience while hoping his tank rebuild starts to bear fruit .

I and others never said Burke couldn't have success doing a tank rebuild but we're not giving him a free pass for his original failures and instead want him fired for making this rebuild harder than it needed to be .

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10-29-2012, 10:31 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Once again proving why just tanking and trying to get as many first round picks does not work.

Again, the issue that people have with burke is that he traded first round picks... Not his individual trades and the quality of players he has brought in regardless of draft position. If burke just traded Stempniak, Kaberle, Hagman and blake for random picks and ended up at the bottom, everyone would love the rebuild. Even though, it is highly unlikely that the high first round picks in 4 drafts that Burke picked up would equal

Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, Colborne, Ashton, Biggs, Percy, Kadri, Reilly, JVR.

Thats the point I am making. He is rebuilding the team with a young core that would be much more likely to be better than just tanking for 2009-2012. Just because you stand on a podium and call their name does not make them skate faster or shoot harder.

People who complain about the results are the same people who want to tank, so they wanted to finish bad. They wanted young stars, and burke got them sure things, young stars instead of going into the draft and hoping for the best. It is easy to sit here and think oh well we would have had this player and that player and boom cup. But again the odds that things work out entirely as planned 4 years into the future are pretty rare. Thats why these fans are so frustrating.... Because they act like they know what would have happened, 4 years in the future and compare the leafs to a magical tank team that has never, and now can never possibly exist. They want the leafs to suck they suck and they are mad. They want top quality youth and they get it, but not in the way that their imaginations said it would happen so they throw hissy fits arguing about the same things for years.

I never wanted Burke to tank.....what I wanted from him was to rebuild the team with a though process in mind. He states that he likes his teams to be tough....yet we are the softest team in the League and got softer as we traded a warrior Schenn for a big body softie who thus far has been a band aid.

In your list of sure things that you credit Burke for trading for, you list many that are not a sure thing at all.

Ashton....a sure fire future AHL star....he has shown little thus far. I watched him a lot when he played for the Pats and he was unimpressive then as he still is.

Colborne is no sure thing as well. Thus far he is no where near a sure thing.

Biggs the jury is still out as it is for Percy.

Kadri I believe will be a 2 nd line player .....but not with the Leafs as they have totally mishandled this young man.....attacking him in the Media etc. He is tougher that most of the current Leafs.

Rielly is going to be a special player, I just hope that he will not be paired with Dion. Dion will not like taking a back seat to him.

Kessel is a highly skilled player who is the softest player in the NHL....

JVR skilled big body who plays like he is 5'8" and injured a lot.

Lupul had a career year but yet again was injured. We will see if he can stay out of his coaches dog house and still produce.

Dion....we will never win a thing with him as our captain.....players will never follow him.

All that Burke has managed to do is assembly a team that maybe able to sneak into the playoffs.....something he stated he does not want to do.

As a person who is a huge Leaf fan but not a Burke fan, I want the Leafs to succeed. I never have wanted them to suck...ever, however that does not mean that I can not hate what the GM has not done.

Why has he not addressed our goaltending? It's been 4 seasons and nothing. It was an identified weakness and he did nothing even when he was going for the retooling.

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10-29-2012, 10:31 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
So why the anger at the anti Burke crew when they were proven right ?

Why are the supporters ignoring what they believed previously to defend Burke and are now pleading for patience while hoping his tank rebuild starts to bear fruit .

I and others never said Burke couldn't have success doing a tank rebuild but we're not giving him a free pass for his original failures and instead want him fired for making this rebuild harder than it needed to be .
How is his rebuild harder.... He has added way more young talent than he could have by tanking....

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