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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

View Poll Results: Ye or Na
Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
10-29-2012, 10:32 PM
  #301
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
So why the anger at the anti Burke crew when they were proven right ?

Why are the supporters ignoring what they believed previously to defend Burke and are now pleading for patience while hoping his tank rebuild starts to bear fruit .

I and others never said Burke couldn't have success doing a tank rebuild but we're not giving him a free pass for his original failures and instead want him fired for making this rebuild harder than it needed to be .
He is under contract for another 2 years.

Sure he screwed up, but give him the 2 years to correct his mistakes.

If in 2 year the Leafs are not competitive he hasn't earned an extension.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:34 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
when i think of our all stars it's just a slap in the face. they're all 1-dimensional. there will be no champions in T.O. with these guys. If we trade Kessel for our top Center (someone with a complete game) that might be a start.
Hahahahahahahha

You honestly don't see how special Kessel is?

He has already shown he is as good a playmaker as he is a goalscorer on top of improving his 2-way play. It is only going to get better.

Besides you will never get the same price you paid for him so you might aswell get to loving him.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:35 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
The question was other than the Oilers who ...

If you look at the Avs and see how many under young players (25 and under) who they've added, and who are actual NHL players I'd have to say they've done better.

But perhaps if we give the Leafs more time they'll be able to match that, if Rielly and Granberg can make the NHL.

Maybe should look at the Kings, Kopitar is the same age as Kessel, and Quick is only 26.
My bad, missed that part. Avs have done very well for themselves. Although lets be honest, if Duchene were a Leaf, half of HF would have declared him a bust last season.

As for LA, perfect example of why you don't need to finish dead last every year to rebuild.

Finally, to buddy above who mentioned Steen, I've said it a million times. I hated the deal then, hate it now. Would love to have Steen back on this team.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:36 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
He is under contract for another 2 years.

Sure he screwed up, but give him the 2 years to correct his mistakes.

If in 2 year the Leafs are not competitive he hasn't earned an extension.
Agreed. I believe he has spent the better part of the last two years doing that already.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:40 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Exactly. Trying to win. The exact opposite of what Edmonton's team plan was. You see the patent absurdity of the comparison.
But they're going to actually WIN in the near future.

While Burke's mess of a team will continue wallowing in mediocrity.

If we're going to finish bottom 10 four years in a row, I'd MUCH rather have a bright future like Edmonton, than than the ridiculousness Burke has created.

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10-29-2012, 10:41 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
So why the anger at the anti Burke crew when they were proven right ?

Why are the supporters ignoring what they believed previously to defend Burke and are now pleading for patience while hoping his tank rebuild starts to bear fruit .

I and others never said Burke couldn't have success doing a tank rebuild but we're not giving him a free pass for his original failures and instead want him fired for making this rebuild harder than it needed to be .
Because most don't agree that he's made it any harder. Why do you assume we all supported Burke before?

In reverse, Burke is now doing what the tankers wanted. Why fire him now?
Do you really think MLSE is gonna bring in another tanker?

Finally, who was proven right? The 'realists' are just as often proven wrong. They just tend to skip over those unpleasant moments and refuse to acknowledge them.

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10-29-2012, 10:42 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Well name them then . I'd really love to know how many teams you could name with at least 5 great players like you think the Leafs have that finished in the lottery .

Or maybe the reason we finished 26th is because all these great players Burke assembled arn't really that great .
It is a tough league and we were 6th in February.

IF I have to look it up I will spank you...

OK I looked at last years standings;
Tavares, Moulson, Perry, Getzlaf, Price, Subban, E.Staal, Skinner, Ward, Stamkos, E. Kane....

Do you seriously want me to continue?

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:43 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
But they're going to actually WIN in the near future.

While Burke's mess of a team will continue wallowing in mediocrity.

If we're going to finish bottom 10 four years in a row, I'd MUCH rather have a bright future like Edmonton, than than the ridiculousness Burke has created.
When is that gonna start again? I've been hearing about this incredible breakout for a while now.

Who will play net? Hall? RNH? Yaku? Hope they can play defense too.

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10-29-2012, 10:44 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Agreed. I believe he has spent the better part of the last two years doing that already.
I think a huge part of the problem is his arrogance.

Because of my age I know it doesn't have to take 5 years blah blah blah.

Well, when you open your mouth and pound your chest you better be able to deliver.

I thought the Kessel trade was premature, it just didn't make sense for a team that JFj had identified 2-3 year prior as being due for a rebuild to make that trade.

I'm going to give Kessel the opportunity to become a 200 foot player before I declare. We know just putting up personal points doesn't make a team a winner, but there is no reason he can't be a positive player on the ice beyond putting up empty calories.

IMO the team would have performed much better if arrogance hadn't got the better of him again, and he had jettisoned Wilson before the last season of damage.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:44 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Even more simply: (ignoring the brutal logic that a completely different teams would have identical results)

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.

So on the simplest level we traded Seguin, Hamilton, Knight for Kessel, Gardiner, Colborne

That is at least even, if not I could easily see toronto winning that one. Add in Ashton, Percy, Biggs, as prospects and Phaneuf/Lupul as forwards we are WELL ahead.

heck you could even argue that Bozak (25) and Mac (26)are much better than the average first rounder anyway.

I dont love all the burke has done (Keeping liles when we have too many pmd, Trading Kubina for Scraps) but for the most part he has done a fantastic job of rebuilding the leafs.

His only crime is not living in dream world where prospects never have slumps, get injured and all develop 2 way games.....
Your simplest terms is seriously flawed.

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.

Here is the reality:

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.
Colborne
Gardiner

Notice the only difference is the Kessel trade. Why you added in the others is strange to me.

Which would you pick now.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:45 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
How is his rebuild harder.... He has added way more young talent than he could have by tanking....
That's your opinion and i think i'll dig up your old thread of how great our youth/prospects were during our 29th place finish to illustrate how biased your your opinion is .

But lets be honest for a second shall we . You couldn't give **** about Burke or the team or any prospect we may have because 90% of all your posts are just trying to spin the Kessel trade .

The great thing is you'll get to see what that deal cost us 6 times a year for the next 15 or so years . So if i was you i'd let it go before it burns you up inside and leaves you an empty shell .

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:47 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Hahahahahahahha

You honestly don't see how special Kessel is?

He has already shown he is as good a playmaker as he is a goalscorer on top of improving his 2-way play. It is only going to get better.

Besides you will never get the same price you paid for him so you might aswell get to loving him.
I don't believe you.

If Kessel was on any other team, you would call him the same as the entire rest of the league calls him.
A 1 dimensional lazy forward with a questionable attitude.

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10-29-2012, 10:47 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Your simplest terms is seriously flawed.

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.

Here is the reality:

Tank Burke
Kadri Kadri
Seguin Kessel
Knight Colborne
Hamilton Gardiner
Reilly Reilly.
Colborne
Gardiner

Notice the only difference is the Kessel trade. Why you added in the others is strange to me.

Which would you pick now.
How is that any less flawed?
Why is it reasonable to assume that everything else happens exactly the same?

Either use just the picks, or use the whole team.

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10-29-2012, 10:48 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
http://www.thestar.com/sports

Toronto writers report on the low points of Toronto's 4 major sports franchises:

Feschuk:

"One might assume the Leafs would have spent the last six months repairing the huge holes in the roster. And yet Burke, who spoke in April of a need to retool the talent...has done next to nothing of the sort."
I don't know how much Toronto writers actually pay attention to the sports that they like to comment on, but there is something called a lock-out going on which prevents all GM's from making any moves.

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10-29-2012, 10:48 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I don't believe you.

If Kessel was on any other team, you would call him the same as the entire rest of the league calls him.
A 1 dimensional lazy forward with a questionable attitude.
I would call him the guy that just finished 6th in league scoring at 24.

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10-29-2012, 10:49 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
It is a tough league and we were 6th in February.

IF I have to look it up I will spank you...

OK I looked at last years standings;
Tavares, Moulson, Perry, Getzlaf, Price, Subban, E.Staal, Skinner, Ward, Stamkos, E. Kane....

Do you seriously want me to continue?
I didn't realize they all played on the same team .

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10-29-2012, 10:52 PM
  #317
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I didn't realize they all played on the same team .

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10-29-2012, 10:53 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
And yet Burke didn't think he was worth Kabs and the 7th overall at the draft .
Well at the time Kaberle was the 2nd leading assists getter among D-men of the last several years behind only Nik Lidstrom. He was still viewed as a solid piece to a winning team. HE was still(barely) worth 2 1st's at that point.

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10-29-2012, 10:54 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
That's your opinion and i think i'll dig up your old thread of how great our youth/prospects were during our 29th place finish to illustrate how biased your your opinion is .

But lets be honest for a second shall we . You couldn't give **** about Burke or the team or any prospect we may have because 90% of all your posts are just trying to spin the Kessel trade .

The great thing is you'll get to see what that deal cost us 6 times a year for the next 15 or so years . So if i was you i'd let it go before it burns you up inside and leaves you an empty shell .
If only we had received anything in that deal that could haunt Boston for the next ten years, hmmm...

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10-29-2012, 10:55 PM
  #320
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I didn't realize they all played on the same team .
They are all great players on teams close to the leafs in the standings.

You can't say the players are crap jst the team finishes low.

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10-29-2012, 10:55 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
He is under contract for another 2 years.

Sure he screwed up, but give him the 2 years to correct his mistakes.

If in 2 year the Leafs are not competitive he hasn't earned an extension.
If Burke gets well into his final year (2013-14), I bet he'll get an extension. Most teams in today's hockey world prefer not to have a lame-duck G.M.

However, the lockout could change that scenario. Everyone and his mother has been speculating that the Leafs have to make the playoffs for Burke to keep his job. But if there is no 12-13 season, MLSE has a decision to make -- either fire Burke, give him an extension, or, because it's an unusual circumstance, keep him on as a lame-duck G.M.

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:56 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I think a huge part of the problem is his arrogance.

Because of my age I know it doesn't have to take 5 years blah blah blah.

Well, when you open your mouth and pound your chest you better be able to deliver.

I thought the Kessel trade was premature, it just didn't make sense for a team that JFj had identified 2-3 year prior as being due for a rebuild to make that trade.

I'm going to give Kessel the opportunity to become a 200 foot player before I declare. We know just putting up personal points doesn't make a team a winner, but there is no reason he can't be a positive player on the ice beyond putting up empty calories.

IMO the team would have performed much better if arrogance hadn't got the better of him again, and he had jettisoned Wilson before the last season of damage.
You had me until the last paragraph. Really?? I mean, I agree Burke is a pompous ass, although I think most of the time it is to bring the attention away from the players, you really think his mouth is hurting the team on the ice?

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10-29-2012, 10:56 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I would call him the guy that just finished 6th in league scoring at 24.
Or you could call him a 4 time 30 goal scoring ppg 6th overal scorer in the NHL.

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10-29-2012, 10:57 PM
  #324
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Once again the rational leaf fans have been dragged down to discussing rhetoric and spin as opposed to the facts.

Let's bring this back on track.

It's been 4 years of bottom 10 finishes.
The team Burke inherited finished 7th last.
Last year finished 5th last.

The team Burke inherited finished 10th in goals for.
Last year finished 10th.

The team Burke inherited finished 30th in goals against.
Last years team finished 29th.

The team Burke inherited had similarly rated prospects according to BOTH the Hockey News and HF.
The "empty cupboards) Marlies team Burke inherited had a substantially BETTER season than our current "rebuilt elite prospect ridden" Marlies.

Those are the facts.
Burke is factually a failure.

Burke supporters rely on spin, rhetoric, and nonsense.
Burke critics just outline the indisputable facts.

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10-29-2012, 10:58 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
How is that any less flawed?
Why is it reasonable to assume that everything else happens exactly the same?

Either use just the picks, or use the whole team.
It is much less flawed as it allows for the other trades to happen as they did not involve trading away first round picks.

You can not pose an argument that trading for Kessel allows us to make other trades, and then in the same breath not consider that the same addition trades would not have happened. The real issue is that you can not delete some trades that were not part of the one trade to some how support that we got the better end of the Kessel trade.

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