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Luongo Thread - Waiting on the World to Change (Mod Warning in OP)

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10-29-2012, 10:47 PM
  #251
I in the Eye
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Everything short of what you suggested is not a dump. How many years do we wait for someone to get desperate? Is Luongo more or less attractive next offseason when he's a year older? How long is he going to be happy with that?
.5 years... Stretch run is where you can get value for a goaltender... Early in the season, too much hope... Deadline, IMO, absolute best time to trade Luongo...

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10-29-2012, 11:05 PM
  #252
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Kadri would be horrible as a main piece coming to us. I really am not thrilled with the prospects Toronto has to offer.

Jacob Markstrom hasn't looked good at all for Florida's farm team. Perhaps Luongo might intrigue them and he could serve as a mentor in a couple years?
Ya, I'm not an expert on Kadri or the Leafs prospects, but they seem to be lacking the same positions as the Nucks. Righty d-men and centres. I'm not thrilled with their prospects either, and I'd prefer Gillis get 'ready' prospects over roster players.

I'm a bit surprised Markstoms only played 3 out of 7 games thus far. His SV% is worse than Scrivens, but I guess the Panthers aren't really relying on him soon in the NHL like Tor. Fla's just the ideal trading partner in every way. Bjugstad or bust.

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10-30-2012, 12:04 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'd be really surprised if that was the case. The Leafs have some decent prospects imo, but not enough to trade 3 or 4 of them. We're going to have to take a roster player to make a deal with them imo.


Yeah I don't think so either... but you could make a case. Kadri is currently doing nothing for the Leafs and Bozak is. However, is the expectation that Kadri will do more once he is a full-time NHLer, or is it that his NHL upside is questioned altogether?... If Kadri doesn't stick, then Bozak is worth more to them because what good is a prospect that you figure won't make it?


Kadri also seems to be on the outs too.


I just really wonder what Burke would value more at this point.

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10-30-2012, 12:05 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
.5 years... Stretch run is where you can get value for a goaltender... Early in the season, too much hope... Deadline, IMO, absolute best time to trade Luongo...
Not opposed to waiting until the deadline at all. However, if the offers are still underwhelming at that time, Gillis needs to accept it and move Luongo to the highest bidder that he will go to. Going into the playoffs with a healthy Schneider and Luongo absolutely cannot be an option IMO.

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10-30-2012, 01:01 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Not opposed to waiting until the deadline at all. However, if the offers are still underwhelming at that time, Gillis needs to accept it and move Luongo to the highest bidder that he will go to. Going into the playoffs with a healthy Schneider and Luongo absolutely cannot be an option IMO.
Sounds eerily familiar to your comments in the past. I think if it was up to you, Gillis would have traded Schneider for Downie at last years trade deadline. I remember you were as convinced as you are now about Gillis having no other option other than trading Schneider at the deadline.

Funny how things work out. It looks like Gillis has increased the value of Schneider to more than just Downie rather than selling short on his asset.

I also could imagine an instance where Luongo and Schneider work as a tandem during next season's playoffs and who knows, maybe Luongo wins back his job and increases his value ala Thomas. Anything is possible. No point in making premature assumptions on situations that haven't even unfolded yet. Lots of things can happen in between now and the trade deadline.

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10-30-2012, 01:18 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by whoshouse View Post
Sounds eerily familiar to your comments in the past. I think if it was up to you, Gillis would have traded Schneider for Downie at last years trade deadline. I remember you were as convinced as you are now about Gillis having no other option other than trading Schneider at the deadline.

Funny how things work out. It looks like Gillis has increased the value of Schneider to more than just Downie rather than selling short on his asset.
I didn't know Gillis and co. had designs of keeping Schneider and moving Luongo last year. In hindsight, it looks like the rumours from Hockeywidow about Luongo wanting to move on before last years playoffs could have been accurate...

I still believe Steve Downie would have been the perfect fit alongside Kesler on the 2nd line. I had a feeling Tampa would make him available and am still disappointed Colorado snapped him up for cheap.

Wasn't a fan of going into the playoffs last year with one of our best players on the bench every night and hope it doesn't happen again. 2 elite goaltenders really doesn't provide anything more than 1 elite goaltender come playoff time, save injury insurance. The Canucks have a limited window as an elite team - take advantage of it.

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10-30-2012, 01:21 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by whoshouse View Post
Sounds eerily familiar to your comments in the past. I think if it was up to you, Gillis would have traded Schneider for Downie at last years trade deadline. I remember you were as convinced as you are now about Gillis having no other option other than trading Schneider at the deadline.

Sublime.


People to need just sit back and wait. If there is a trade to be made, it will happen. Gillis knows what he's doing in this instance. Clearly... Look at what we have in Schneider now!


Great patience there by MG.

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10-30-2012, 01:26 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Sublime.


People to need just sit back and wait. If there is a trade to be made, it will happen. Gillis knows what he's doing in this instance. Clearly... Look at what we have in Schneider now!


Great patience there by MG.
Does that make him the Henrik Sedin of NHL GMs?

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10-30-2012, 01:33 AM
  #259
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Does that make him the Henrik Sedin of NHL GMs?
Imagine the praise if we didn't go 1-4 in the playoffs.

The 2nd line looked like a big problem going into the playoffs and sure enough, it afforded us zero goals in the series.

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10-30-2012, 01:47 AM
  #260
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Does that make him the Henrik Sedin of NHL GMs?

Why yes, yes it does.

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10-30-2012, 02:02 AM
  #261
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I think I would accept something like this

Kulemin
Tyler Biggs
1st 2013
2nd 2013

Even though I'd really prefer a package involving Gardiner. But I think the package above is enough for me to pull the trigger. Kulemin hopefully can regain his 15 goal/season production, so he would be a good 3rd liner with his size and defensive awareness. Biggs should make a very good 4th liner, possibly a 3rd liner. And the real value lies in the picks, as 2013 is supposed to be deep.

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10-30-2012, 02:03 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I didn't know Gillis and co. had designs of keeping Schneider and moving Luongo last year. In hindsight, it looks like the rumours from Hockeywidow about Luongo wanting to move on before last years playoffs could have been accurate...

I still believe Steve Downie would have been the perfect fit alongside Kesler on the 2nd line. I had a feeling Tampa would make him available and am still disappointed Colorado snapped him up for cheap.

Wasn't a fan of going into the playoffs last year with one of our best players on the bench every night and hope it doesn't happen again. 2 elite goaltenders really doesn't provide anything more than 1 elite goaltender come playoff time, save injury insurance. The Canucks have a limited window as an elite team - take advantage of it.
I understand your reasons as to why you would make that transaction but I think it is obvious Gillis made the correct decision in holding Schneider. The only way you could justify that proposed trade is if you believe Downie would have pushed the Canucks to beat the Kings in the playoffs, which I personally think is a pretty large reach.

I don't want to say what I think should or will happen in the future because things can change. Imagine the team starts the season with both goalies and find themselves 1st in the league by a large margin, would you feel the need to trade either goalie? What if both goalies are playing outstanding and are co-mvps of the team, would you trade them then? I think Gillis would look like a fool if he traded one goalie at the deadline only to have the other get injured during the playoffs, don't you? There are a lot of variables at play in a decision like this.


Who knows, Schneider's value is so high now maybe Gillis can acquire a 1st, a top 6 prospect, and a Downie-type player at this season's trade deadline.

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10-30-2012, 02:26 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Going into the playoffs with a healthy Schneider and Luongo absolutely cannot be an option IMO.
Why?

We can always flip picks for players at the TDL.

Then we can deal Luongo for assets to recuperate the loss of picks.

Nashville did the same thing this summer trading Lindback.

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10-30-2012, 10:18 AM
  #264
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Why?

We can always flip picks for players at the TDL.

Then we can deal Luongo for assets to recuperate the loss of picks.

Nashville did the same thing this summer trading Lindback.
Burke has a stock-pile of young D. Is one of those guys coming to Vancouver for Luongo?

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10-30-2012, 10:24 AM
  #265
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Burke has a stock-pile of young D. Is one of those guys coming to Vancouver for Luongo?
You'd think a GM like Burke with lots of holes in his roster would have to trade from position of strength...

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10-30-2012, 10:43 AM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I think I would accept something like this

Kulemin
Tyler Biggs
1st 2013
2nd 2013

Even though I'd really prefer a package involving Gardiner. But I think the package above is enough for me to pull the trigger. Kulemin hopefully can regain his 15 goal/season production, so he would be a good 3rd liner with his size and defensive awareness. Biggs should make a very good 4th liner, possibly a 3rd liner. And the real value lies in the picks, as 2013 is supposed to be deep.
Don't we already have too many third line wingers as it is?

A prospect who could too out as a 4th liner is pathetic value in a trade like this.

Essentially you want to trade Luongo for a mid first and second round draft pick and more of what we already have too much of. I hope Gillis doesn't agree with you because that's terrible value.

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10-30-2012, 11:38 AM
  #267
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Don't we already have too many third line wingers as it is?

A prospect who could too out as a 4th liner is pathetic value in a trade like this.

Essentially you want to trade Luongo for a mid first and second round draft pick and more of what we already have too much of. I hope Gillis doesn't agree with you because that's terrible value.
Man I've never seen a player available that was valued so differently by everyone. Even Cancuks fans themselves can't agree. Saw this on the Oilers board:

"to Van:
Shawn Horcoff
Mike Kostka
Ryan Hamilton

to Edm:
James Reimer

to Tor:
Roberto Luongo
"

Obviously that's a joke of a deal for the Canucks, but it's also the complete opposite end of the spectrum from what some Canucks fans are hoping to get. I think the return you chastized above is pretty fair really. If anything leans to us a bit.

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10-30-2012, 12:05 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Man I've never seen a player available that was valued so differently by everyone. Even Cancuks fans themselves can't agree. Saw this on the Oilers board:

"to Van:
Shawn Horcoff
Mike Kostka
Ryan Hamilton

to Edm:
James Reimer

to Tor:
Roberto Luongo
"

Obviously that's a joke of a deal for the Canucks, but it's also the complete opposite end of the spectrum from what some Canucks fans are hoping to get. I think the return you chastized above is pretty fair really. If anything leans to us a bit.
Why would the Oilers need Reimer? (course if it relieves them of the crap salary that Horcoff.....)

Here's my counteroffer....put Luongo on waivers and the Oilers claim him for free but of course still are stuck with Horcoff. Canucks better off in this deal (granted I wouldn't do it). Horcoff's contract is almost as bad as Komi's (only reason why his contract is "better" even though there's an extra year on it is the NMC comes off after one season). Horcoff or Komi? That's like being given the choice of execution - neither a desirable option.

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10-30-2012, 12:08 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Man I've never seen a player available that was valued so differently by everyone. Even Cancuks fans themselves can't agree. Saw this on the Oilers board:

"to Van:
Shawn Horcoff
Mike Kostka
Ryan Hamilton

to Edm:
James Reimer

to Tor:
Roberto Luongo
"

Obviously that's a joke of a deal for the Canucks, but it's also the complete opposite end of the spectrum from what some Canucks fans are hoping to get. I think the return you chastized above is pretty fair really. If anything leans to us a bit.
How does adding yet another third line winger (something we already have Higgins, Hansen, Raymond, as well as probably Kassian for), along with a prospect who was deemed to be a future good 4th liner, and some draft picks help? I understand that a 1st round pick in a deep draft is a valuable asset, but we are trading Roberto Luongo, not Jonas Hiller. Luongo is worth a hell of a lot more than that and we should be plugging holes, not overloading certain areas.

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10-30-2012, 12:32 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Not opposed to waiting until the deadline at all. However, if the offers are still underwhelming at that time, Gillis needs to accept it and move Luongo to the highest bidder that he will go to. Going into the playoffs with a healthy Schneider and Luongo absolutely cannot be an option IMO.
I think Gillis has until late next offseason (at the latest)... If the offers are still underwhelming at the deadline (and no significant improvements available elsewhere - therefore, cap space not needed), I think riding excellent goaltending for 1 more playoffs can work...

Then, there's other deadlines to still try - the draft, after free agency, before training camp...

Gillis' goal, IMHO, is to send Luongo to Florida... and it just so happens, Florida will probably be in the market for a #1 goaltender by next offseason (Theodore retiring)... Also gives teams some time to play with the new CBA...

For me, assuming Luongo and Schneider are both still outstanding options for #1 by the start of next season's training camp (and, I do think they both would be), I think that Gillis needs to move Luongo to the highest bidder, at the latest, then... I assume that the Canucks will need the cap space, and that Luongo would have had enough with limbo...

Chances are, the team Luongo gets traded to wouldn't be in the playoffs anyways... At least by staying on the Canucks, Lu has a good chance to be in the playoffs, and be given the opportunity to be a difference maker - not only in the playoffs, but for a *knock on wood* cup run... AV will, IMHO, go with the goaltender he feels gives the team the best option to win any given night... For me, a pissed off, motivated Luongo is a real scary, dangerous weapon to have...

My opinion is that, more than anything, the real possibility of having Lu stay on the Canucks for one more season is all it will take (i.e. the threat and promise)... If teams believe that Gillis will keep Luongo, it will only take a month or two on the team, IMO, before Tallon (or Burke, or someone else) pays more than they are prepared to pay to have Luongo today... Towards the price that convinces Gillis it's time to trade Luongo...

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10-30-2012, 12:38 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I think I would accept something like this

Kulemin
Tyler Biggs
1st 2013
2nd 2013

Even though I'd really prefer a package involving Gardiner. But I think the package above is enough for me to pull the trigger. Kulemin hopefully can regain his 15 goal/season production, so he would be a good 3rd liner with his size and defensive awareness. Biggs should make a very good 4th liner, possibly a 3rd liner. And the real value lies in the picks, as 2013 is supposed to be deep.
This would be an excellent trade for Vancouver. If Biggs or Kelemin aren't needed, either or both can be traded. The picks would be awesome for our weak prospect pool. The only problem is that Burke has already been stung for giving up a first(s). I don't think he does it again.

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10-30-2012, 12:56 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
I think Gillis has until late next offseason (at the latest)... If the offers are still underwhelming at the deadline (and no significant improvements available elsewhere - therefore, cap space not needed), I think riding excellent goaltending for 1 more playoffs can work...

Then, there's other deadlines to still try - the draft, after free agency, before training camp...

Gillis' goal, IMHO, is to send Luongo to Florida... and it just so happens, Florida will probably be in the market for a #1 goaltender by next offseason (Theodore retiring)... Also gives teams some time to play with the new CBA...

For me, assuming Luongo and Schneider are both still outstanding options for #1 by the start of next season's training camp (and, I do think they both would be), I think that Gillis needs to move Luongo to the highest bidder, at the latest, then... I assume that the Canucks will need the cap space, and that Luongo would have had enough with limbo...

Chances are, the team Luongo gets traded to wouldn't be in the playoffs anyways... At least by staying on the Canucks, Lu has a good chance to be in the playoffs, and be given the opportunity to be a difference maker - not only in the playoffs, but for a *knock on wood* cup run... AV will, IMHO, go with the goaltender he feels gives the team the best option to win any given night... For me, a pissed off, motivated Luongo is a real scary, dangerous weapon to have...

My opinion is that, more than anything, the real possibility of having Lu stay on the Canucks for one more season is all it will take (i.e. the threat and promise)... If teams believe that Gillis will keep Luongo, it will only take a month or two on the team, IMO, before Tallon (or Burke, or someone else) pays more than they are prepared to pay to have Luongo today... Towards the price that convinces Gillis it's time to trade Luongo...
Pretty much summed up my feeling on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blendini View Post
This would be an excellent trade for Vancouver. If Biggs or Kelemin aren't needed, either or both can be traded. The picks would be awesome for our weak prospect pool. The only problem is that Burke has already been stung for giving up a first(s). I don't think he does it again.
Off topic, but I'm not sure how much I trust this teams scouting staff to draft a difference maker with those picks.

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Old
10-30-2012, 01:54 PM
  #273
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Sublime.


People to need just sit back and wait. If there is a trade to be made, it will happen. Gillis knows what he's doing in this instance. Clearly... Look at what we have in Schneider now!


Great patience there by MG.
Patience and big brass ones.

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Old
10-30-2012, 01:56 PM
  #274
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Why all the focus on Toronto? and why the rush?

I think with the lockout hurting some of the smaller US markets we will see Luongo's value grow to those teams. Some of these teams can't afford to bleed money from low ticket sales and revenue that could result from an extended lockout. Some of these teams could use an upgrade in goal to help secure a playoff spot which would go a long way in bringing market interest back. Not to mention that Luongo is one of the most recognizable faces of the NHL, someone you can put on tickets, and something you can market to the fans. Columbus and Florida make sense. I doubt either team is confident they will make the playoffs with their current goaltending situation, and each could use the star revenue he would provide.

Then we have teams like Chicago, Detroit, San Jose, and Washington that are in win now mode and may or may not be interested in Luongo. Some may have luke warm interest that could explode some point between now and next summer into heavy interest if Crawford stinks it up, Howard won't sign an extension, Niemi can't find himself, or caps youngsters struggle.

The longer the lockout goes, the longer we hold on to Luongo, the longer the list of suitors and trade possibilities.

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10-30-2012, 02:03 PM
  #275
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This would be an excellent trade for Vancouver. If Biggs or Kelemin aren't needed, either or both can be traded. The picks would be awesome for our weak prospect pool. The only problem is that Burke has already been stung for giving up a first(s). I don't think he does it again.
So you would trade are most valuable asset for players that don't improve our team so then you hope to pawn them off on somebody else? why not hang onto Luongo until you get something that improves the team? the picks will always be there.

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