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Old
10-29-2012, 02:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by TS Quint View Post
I think the problem is the prospects that are close to being ready are all the same, small and skilled. Brunner/Z/Nyquist is way to small of a line to compete. The wingers are going to get killed in the corners and I don't want Z playing in the corners the whole game because he'll end up missing 40 games.
Z has missed 15 games over the past four seasons; he has the most of any Wing at 313 GP. Lidstrom is one behind at 312. Brad Stuart missed 31 games (297 GP) while Datsyuk, Filppula, and Kronwall have all missed 41 (287 GP). Hudler only missed ten games (and only due to either flu or healthy scratch, no injuries), but only played three seasons of the four (236 GP). Franzen missed 77 games (251 GP).

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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Nyquist is also bigger, and has produced at a more impressive rate than Tatar up to both their points in their career.
Hmm, really? Nyquist has an inch on Tatar. Tatar has a pound on Nyquist. Who's bigger?. This isn't a Fedorov v. Yzerman question where Fedorov had like 4 inches and 20 pounds on Yzerman.

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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Nyquist is a little over a year older than Tatar, not 2-3 years.
Yeah, I realized my mistake later; but it's still true of Nyquist re: other prospects.

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Tatar is on pace to put up pretty similar numbers to that of Nyquist at the same age (though it's only been 6 games, so it's too small a sample size to be very meaningful). At best, at this point, he is at Nyquist's level at the same age. Miles ahead? Not even close. And Tatar is neither the faster nor the overall better skater between the two.
Tatar is on a better offensive pace than Nyquist was last season in the AHL, and not too far behind Hudler's blinding 2005-06 pace. Nyquist is actually scoring at a slower rate than last season.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
At some point, the Wings need a shift in their thinking.

Stop with the Holmstroms and Bertuzzis until they are 39. Very few forwards are effective after 35.

Stop briinging back the "old gang."

Start giving youth the opportunity to step up and succeed.
But if Bertuzzi hadn't been brought back for his size and lack of ability to do anything meaningful other than rack up a handful of points while playing all year with Datsyuk, then we'd have another legit top-sixer in Hudler and people would be complaining that Holland sucked because he didn't upgrade on Hudler.

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Originally Posted by ChadS View Post
How much longer is he waiver-free?
Exempt for this season and next under the expired CBA. Nyquist is exempt this season, next season, AND the following season. Not accounting for GP, of course.

Seems like a no-brainer that you add Tatar to the roster if you have to choose.

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10-29-2012, 02:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Not near the pest level, but yeah once again offensively he really should be around those kind of players. 50-60 points is very doable for him. We have always said a better skating Hudler. Well he doesn't have the same offensive prowess of Hudler, but the other improvements he has made make him a far more complete hockey player.

I really do have hopes he is becoming a Versteeg type. He is very young still and the improvement he has made across the board is really encouraging.
As an offensive player, Hudler had a well-rounded offensive understanding of the game.,
I don't think Tatar has Hudler's vision and playmaking ability. But Tatar really attacks the net. Look where Hudler scored his goals from. 5-10 free from the net.. Tatar will be the same.

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10-29-2012, 02:45 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Z has missed 15 games over the past four seasons; he has the most of any Wing at 313 GP. Lidstrom is one behind at 312. Brad Stuart missed 31 games (297 GP) while Datsyuk, Filppula, and Kronwall have all missed 41 (287 GP). Hudler only missed ten games (and only due to either flu or healthy scratch, no injuries), but only played three seasons of the four (236 GP). Franzen missed 77 games (251 GP).
.
So your point is you want Z digging pucks out of the corner? And you know he was playing hurt for the first part of last year right?

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10-29-2012, 02:55 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
As an offensive player, Hudler had a well-rounded offensive understanding of the game.,
I don't think Tatar has Hudler's vision and playmaking ability. But Tatar really attacks the net. Look where Hudler scored his goals from. 5-10 free from the net.. Tatar will be the same.
Hudler scored goals from just about anywhere.

http://video.redwings.nhl.com/videoc...0&event=VAN372

http://video.redwings.nhl.com/videoc...7&event=DET602

http://video.hurricanes.nhl.com/vide...3&event=DET654

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...5&event=NSH408

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...8&event=DAL720

http://video.redwings.nhl.com/videoc...5&event=CGY418

Tatar and Nyquist both have excellent skill sets. But those who expect them to step right in and be 50-point players are overrating them. They are pretty much following Hudler's offensive progression and it took Hudler a couple years in the NHL before he hit the 50-point level. If they play top-six, 35-40 points is a reasonable expectation for the first couple seasons. Full-time playing with Dats/Z may change that upwards, but I figure 35-40 is probably the number for either of them if playing a top-six role.

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10-29-2012, 04:38 PM
  #55
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All this talk on prospects and line combinations really has me excited for some hockey. So we have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary, Samuelsson, Brunner, Nyquist, Tatar, Bertuzzi, Helm, Tootoo, Emmerton, Eaves, Miller, and Mursak. That's 16 forwards. Hopefully Emmerton and Mursak start the year in the AHL and Eaves will be on the IR. That leaves us with 13 forwards. I'd like to see

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Bertuzzi
Franzen - Zetterberg - Brunner
Cleary - Filppula - Samuelsson
Miller - Helm - Abdelkader

Miller, Abdelkader, and Tootoo rotate in those three spots. When injuries happen Tatar, Emmerton, and Mursak get their chance. Or if Brunner struggles put Tatar in his spot. Hopefully Babcock puts the young skilled guys on the skill lines...so frustrating to watch guys like Nyquist put up nearly a ppg with Datsyuk only to go back down once the team is healthy again. As much as I don't like Bertuzzi, the only player he's somewhat effective with is Datsyuk and if I remember correctly he was the one with Datsyuk and Nyquist during that nice streak for them last year. Then hopefully Cleary can get back to being a 20-25 goal guy and Filppula can repeat last year. This team has me really excited for the future. Even when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are gone, the team should still be great with Nyquist, Smith, Tatar, Filppula, Brunner, Mursak, Helm, Pulkinnen, and Jurco.

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10-29-2012, 05:03 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Z has missed 15 games over the past four seasons; he has the most of any Wing at 313 GP. Lidstrom is one behind at 312. Brad Stuart missed 31 games (297 GP) while Datsyuk, Filppula, and Kronwall have all missed 41 (287 GP). Hudler only missed ten games (and only due to either flu or healthy scratch, no injuries), but only played three seasons of the four (236 GP). Franzen missed 77 games (251 GP).



Hmm, really? Nyquist has an inch on Tatar. Tatar has a pound on Nyquist. Who's bigger?. This isn't a Fedorov v. Yzerman question where Fedorov had like 4 inches and 20 pounds on Yzerman.



Yeah, I realized my mistake later; but it's still true of Nyquist re: other prospects.



Tatar is on a better offensive pace than Nyquist was last season in the AHL, and not too far behind Hudler's blinding 2005-06 pace. Nyquist is actually scoring at a slower rate than last season.



But if Bertuzzi hadn't been brought back for his size and lack of ability to do anything meaningful other than rack up a handful of points while playing all year with Datsyuk, then we'd have another legit top-sixer in Hudler and people would be complaining that Holland sucked because he didn't upgrade on Hudler.



Exempt for this season and next under the expired CBA. Nyquist is exempt this season, next season, AND the following season. Not accounting for GP, of course.

Seems like a no-brainer that you add Tatar to the roster if you have to choose.

Why is everything about Bertuzzi vs. Hudler with you?

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10-29-2012, 05:17 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hmm, really? Nyquist has an inch on Tatar. Tatar has a pound on Nyquist. Who's bigger?. This isn't a Fedorov v. Yzerman question where Fedorov had like 4 inches and 20 pounds on Yzerman.
They are roughly the same size, yes. Nyquist is 1 inch taller and currently 3 lbs heavier.


Quote:
Yeah, I realized my mistake later; but it's still true of Nyquist re: other prospects.
Well, the main comparison in this thread was to Tatar. But going back to your original point, that people are only high on Nyquist because he's older than other prospects.... uh, I'm not even sure what your trying to say? That people just like the older prospects better? Or that they don't realize how old Nyquist is? Not sure. But I've been high on Nyquist since I started watching him during his freshman year in Orono. I had him as a top-5 prospect for the Wings by midseason that year. So his current age is a non-factor in what I think of him.


Quote:
Tatar is on a better offensive pace than Nyquist was last season in the AHL, and not too far behind Hudler's blinding 2005-06 pace. Nyquist is actually scoring at a slower rate than last season.
Jesus, you have too squeak Hudler into every single conversation, don't you? Look, Tatar is putting up just a hair above a point-per-game, which is great, but it's only been 7 games. Nyquist was over a point-per-game last year through 56 games. His sample size is far more impressive than Tatar's, even if Tatar's actual rate is a tad higher. Let's see what Tatar is doing after 20 or 30 games before we talk about his "blinding pace."

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10-29-2012, 05:44 PM
  #58
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Unless he wants to play in the AHL for two more years he'll be going to the KHL. The lock-out is going to be lasting a long, long time.

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10-29-2012, 06:35 PM
  #59
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Every thread about a prospect/player has to have a Hudler argument...

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10-29-2012, 09:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
we got too many forwards.


bert, cleary, sammy, mursak, emmerton, eaves, miller, abby, helm, tootoo, filppula, tatar, nyqvist, brunner, z, dats, mule, homer....


how is holland and babcock conna fix this?
Easy. Have a lockout until it fixes itself

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10-29-2012, 09:40 PM
  #61
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I can't think of a team that would want a package of 3rd/4th liners for their shutdown defenseman. Maybe someone like Tallinder from NYJ or Leopold/Regehr from BUF? Just thinking off the top of my head.

If we can't dump some players through a trade, then someone's gonna get cut (hopefully) to make room for Tats.

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10-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #62
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Depending on what the new CBA looks like you could have some teams scrambling to get under a much lower cap which would open a lot of salary dump type trade possibilities, as well as potential buyout players.

Boston, Minnesota, Vancouver, Calgary, Philadelphia, and San Jose are all teams with a cap payroll of 65M of more right now who might need to dump players if the cap drops.


Last edited by FissionFire: 10-29-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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10-29-2012, 11:16 PM
  #63
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I don't think we need to worry much about Tatar. My impression is that the Wings like the guy, and he did everything they asked of him last year. While he didn't have a shot of making it this year out of camp, he had to have been one of the first call-ups, and I think he has a more than fair shot of making the team next year. I think the guy will have room made for him.

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10-30-2012, 12:36 AM
  #64
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10-30-2012, 08:44 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Why is everything about Bertuzzi vs. Hudler with you?
Because keeping Bertuzzi used cap space and a roster spot that could otherwise have been used on Hudler, even if the Wings signed Parise and Suter. No Bert, Sammy, or Cola means enough for Parise, Suter, and Hudler on their current deals under the 70m cap.

Once you get no Parise/Suter, Sammy and Cola drop it down to just a little over the current level.

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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
They are roughly the same size, yes. Nyquist is 1 inch taller and currently 3 lbs heavier.

Well, the main comparison in this thread was to Tatar. But going back to your original point, that people are only high on Nyquist because he's older than other prospects.... uh, I'm not even sure what your trying to say? That people just like the older prospects better? Or that they don't realize how old Nyquist is? Not sure. But I've been high on Nyquist since I started watching him during his freshman year in Orono. I had him as a top-5 prospect for the Wings by midseason that year. So his current age is a non-factor in what I think of him.
Nyquist is good, don't get me wrong. I just think Tatar is ahead of him on the developmental curve.

Quote:
Jesus, you have too squeak Hudler into every single conversation, don't you? Look, Tatar is putting up just a hair above a point-per-game, which is great, but it's only been 7 games. Nyquist was over a point-per-game last year through 56 games. His sample size is far more impressive than Tatar's, even if Tatar's actual rate is a tad higher. Let's see what Tatar is doing after 20 or 30 games before we talk about his "blinding pace."
Technically, I said "Hudler's blinding pace"...

But you are correct, 7 games is a small sample size.

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10-30-2012, 09:46 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Because keeping Bertuzzi used cap space and a roster spot that could otherwise have been used on Hudler, even if the Wings signed Parise and Suter. No Bert, Sammy, or Cola means enough for Parise, Suter, and Hudler on their current deals under the 70m cap.

Once you get no Parise/Suter, Sammy and Cola drop it down to just a little over the current level.
I think you're missing the point: this thread is about Tatar, not Hudler.

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10-30-2012, 01:40 PM
  #67
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yeah man hudlers gone drop it will ya

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10-30-2012, 02:49 PM
  #68
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I'm gonna side with the other posters here - this thread isn't a Hudler debate. There's got to be some wiggle room with post topic, but this isn't a Hudler thread. If you want to talk about Hudler, pull up one of the numerous Hudler threads or create one if there are none relatively recent.

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10-30-2012, 04:13 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
All this talk on prospects and line combinations really has me excited for some hockey. So we have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary, Samuelsson, Brunner, Nyquist, Tatar, Bertuzzi, Helm, Tootoo, Emmerton, Eaves, Miller, and Mursak. That's 16 forwards. Hopefully Emmerton and Mursak start the year in the AHL and Eaves will be on the IR. That leaves us with 13 forwards.
I believe they would have to go through waivers to be sent back down to the AHL. That just ain't happening. Mursak would be claimed by another team for sure. Probably Emmerton too.

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10-30-2012, 08:17 PM
  #70
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Everyone needs to relax. Tatar isn't going to the KHL any time soon. Management likes him, he's getting the call-ups, and he's on the brink of reaching the NHL. He isn't some prima donna like Dick Axelsson.


Quote:
“It is my favorite animal,” he said. “A tiger battles his whole life in the jungle. He is proud. He works hard to survive. He is kind of like me. I want to battle through everything to make the NHL.”
Link From 2011


Quote:
Tatar, who is in his fourth AHL season, says he'll head to the KHL if he doesn't make the Wings in a couple years, according to a report on MLive.com.
Analysis: "This is my fourth year here and I really like it here, but you start to look at your future," said the 22-year-old forward who is skating with the Wings' affiliate, the Grand Rapids Griffins. "I've been close, but we'll see. I'll give it a couple more years to make the Red Wings. If not, I have interest going with the KHL, so we'll see what happens." He has two years left on his deal; last season, he tied for the team lead in points with 58, including 24 goals.
Link from ONE WEEK AGO

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10-30-2012, 08:34 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
As an offensive player, Hudler had a well-rounded offensive understanding of the game.,
I don't think Tatar has Hudler's vision and playmaking ability. But Tatar really attacks the net. Look where Hudler scored his goals from. 5-10 free from the net.. Tatar will be the same.
I agree that Tatar doesn't have the same vision/playmaking ability. But he's at least twice the skater Hudler is. And the reports seem to be that Tatar actually is the 5'10, 185 he's listed at, while there's been speculation that Hudler could be as short as 5'6 with a more reasonable estimate being 5'8".

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10-30-2012, 08:53 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
I agree that Tatar doesn't have the same vision/playmaking ability. But he's at least twice the skater Hudler is. And the reports seem to be that Tatar actually is the 5'10, 185 he's listed at, while there's been speculation that Hudler could be as short as 5'6 with a more reasonable estimate being 5'8".
They used to make a lot of sense as comparables because both lacked a lot of defensive awareness. Sorry I am the one who has derailed it to here and not Eva if I remember right. That is what I thought of Tatar before, like CB I don't think he has Hudler's hockey sense. But his tools in terms of shooting are pretty close and he holds the puck and dangles much better. He doesn't see the ice surface quite as well, but the skating and other raw abilities could see them score in similar figures for the Wings.

The big thing with Tatar is he has improved a lot of the small things. They might not have kept him out of the NHL but they would have caused limited ice time and some of the problems Jiri encountered. He is trustworthy now, he plays with a decent amount of jam especially for a smaller guy. He wants to improve at everything not just look at points all of a sudden half way through last year the points started to come again while being defensively responsible. It has led to a big step, I still believe he is slightly lower ceiling wise than Nyquist. But the gap is very small and Tatar deserves a lot of the credit, he really is a much better player than he was even 18 months ago. A classic example of someone's numbers dropping or staying the same but improving a ton. If you just check the box scores not much has changed, when you watch him live so much has and I am excited about it.

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10-30-2012, 10:40 PM
  #73
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I liked the way Tatar's skating improved over the past couple years.
During his callup a couple season's ago, he just didn't look like an NHL skater.
But last year, in the pre-season, he looked a lot sharper. And then in the WCs, he looked even better.

A lot is going to depend on how willing he is to pay the price. His game seems predicated on taking the puck to the net or going to the net when the puck gets there.

Easier to at the AHL level than it is in the NHL. I won't bet against him, because he plays with spirit.

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10-30-2012, 10:59 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I liked the way Tatar's skating improved over the past couple years.
During his callup a couple season's ago, he just didn't look like an NHL skater.
But last year, in the pre-season, he looked a lot sharper. And then in the WCs, he looked even better.

A lot is going to depend on how willing he is to pay the price. His game seems predicated on taking the puck to the net or going to the net when the puck gets there.

Easier to at the AHL level than it is in the NHL. I won't bet against him, because he plays with spirit.
He is answering that question pretty well. Like you said the step up where they can make you pay a lot harder and more often will be interesting. But he did do it at the World Championships and against the better teams. So he is willing as long as we don't find out he will get knocked into next week while trying it on a nightly basis. Both he and Gus have started driving the net a lot more in the recent games which is a good sign.

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10-31-2012, 12:35 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Z40 View Post
I believe they would have to go through waivers to be sent back down to the AHL. That just ain't happening. Mursak would be claimed by another team for sure. Probably Emmerton too.
Big *** deal. These are not NHL players. Nor do we need non skilled players of this size.

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