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Schneider to Edmonton

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Old
10-29-2012, 07:38 PM
  #226
Moe Szyslak
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No Schnu for you!

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10-30-2012, 03:13 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Vancouver isn't going to trade a franchise goaltender to a team in its division.
Anything can happen. If Gillis thinks Edmonton can offer us the best package, theres no doubt in my mind he will make that trade.

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10-30-2012, 06:33 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
As others have stated, the only way the Canucks would trade Scheider period would be for an overpayment. I think most GM's know that this guy is one of the better young goalies out there. To trade him within the division would require an even bigger overpayment.
Here is what we can do, since it would require an overpayment to trade him inside the division, then Edmonton would make no offer at all to Vancouver.

Montreal would make an offer Vancouver could not refuse, but less than an overpayment!

Then Montreal trade Schneider to Edmonton for a plus value, but less than an overpayment.

This way everyone is happy.

Vancouver get a good offer for Schneider
Edmonton doesn't need to make an overpayment
Montreal make a plus value in his role of intermediate.

Scenario like this happened in the past:

Hackett was traded to San Jose, then traded back to Boston

Montreal traded Hackett for Sundstrom.

Then SJ traded Hackett for Mclaren to Boston

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10-30-2012, 06:43 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by lawrence View Post
Anything can happen. If Gillis thinks Edmonton can offer us the best package, theres no doubt in my mind he will make that trade.
There is lots of doubt in my mind. That is a deal that won't happen.

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10-30-2012, 07:01 AM
  #230
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Under no circumstances trade a good goalie to Edmonton. It's our only hope they crash and burn on bad goaltending, it's about the only weakness now they have a potential #1 D J Schultz.

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10-30-2012, 10:21 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Schneider has been Jonathan Quick's equal over the last couple years. Difference being Schneider was on a team with a star goaltender and Quick had no competition for his starts.

Nothing we've seen from Schneider should lead anyone to believe he's inferior to Quick. Hence why one of the best goaltenders of our generation lost his job to the kid...
Yep, totally equal, other than the fact Quick has played like four times as many games and won a Stanley Cup . Schneider is a good goalie with lots of potential, but let's get back a bit closer to reality. When he puts up good numbers for more than 30 or so games in a year then we can start comparing his value to elite goaltenders.

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10-30-2012, 11:24 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by handyj View Post
Yep, totally equal, other than the fact Quick has played like four times as many games and won a Stanley Cup . Schneider is a good goalie with lots of potential, but let's get back a bit closer to reality. When he puts up good numbers for more than 30 or so games in a year then we can start comparing his value to elite goaltenders.
I hear the same thing over and over and over again about Schneider. It's called forsight people. Scouting. Watch him. Note his career development:

- High School: Team Captain: 1.50 GAA; .954 SV% in 47 games.
- Boston College: Several trophies, records: 2.10 GAA; .926 SV% in 99 games.
- AHL: One of the top goalies in the AHL during his time there: 2.28 GAA; .928 SV% in 136 games.
- NHL: William Jennings Trophy, took starting job from Luongo: 2.24 GAA; 9.28 SV% in 68 games.

Notice a trend here? The guy has been an elite goaltender at EVERY level. This is about to change becuase he hasn't put up good numbers for more than 30 games? Look at the stats! He's never put up bad numbers...

The kid has one of the best heads I've ever seen in a goalie (was team captain in High School, a leader and locker-room guy all along) and he never gives up. He has unbeleiveable leg speed and quickness.

This isn't some flash in the pan. This is a top young goalie with extremley good pedigree. We're not talking Devan Dubnyk here. Schneider will be one of the best goalies in the NHL going forward. You can mark my words. I've watched goalies a long time.

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10-30-2012, 11:40 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
I hear the same thing over and over and over again about Schneider. It's called forsight people. Scouting. Watch him. Note his career development:

- High School: Team Captain: 1.50 GAA; .954 SV% in 47 games.
- Boston College: Several trophies, records: 2.10 GAA; .926 SV% in 99 games.
- AHL: One of the top goalies in the AHL during his time there: 2.28 GAA; .928 SV% in 136 games.
- NHL: William Jennings Trophy, took starting job from Luongo: 2.24 GAA; 9.28 SV% in 68 games.

Notice a trend here? The guy has been an elite goaltender at EVERY level. This is about to change becuase he hasn't put up good numbers for more than 30 games? Look at the stats! He's never put up bad numbers...

The kid has one of the best heads I've ever seen in a goalie (was team captain in High School, a leader and locker-room guy all along) and he never gives up. He has unbeleiveable leg speed and quickness.

This isn't some flash in the pan. This is a top young goalie with extremley good pedigree. We're not talking Devan Dubnyk here. Schneider will be one of the best goalies in the NHL going forward. You can mark my words. I've watched goalies a long time.
Lets compare Schneider development to Bobrovsky!

From 19yo-21yo:
Schneider is doing well in college
From 20yo-21yo:
Bobrovsky is a starter playing against men in the KHL

From 21-22yo
Schneider is a backup in the AHL
From 22-24yo
Schneider is a AHL Starter

From 22-23yo
Bobrovsky is a NHL starter (2010-2011) then a NHL backup (2011-2012) in the NHL

From 25-26yo
Schneider is a backup in the NHL
From 24-26yo will Bobrovsky be a backup or starter?


Notice a trend here ? Schneider competed against easier opposition at EVERY stage of his development. What if we switched their role?


Last edited by palindrom: 10-30-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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10-30-2012, 11:57 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Lets compare Schneider development to Bobrovsky!

From 19yo-21yo:
Schneider is doing well in college
From 20yo-21yo:
Bobrovsky is a starter playing against men in the KHL

From 21-22yo
Schneider is a backup in the AHL
From 22-24yo
Schneider is a AHL Starter

From 22-23yo
Bobrovsky is a NHL starter (2010-2011) then a NHL backup (2011-2012) in the NHL

From 25-26yo
Schneider is a backup in the NHL
From 24-26yo will Bobrovsky be a backup or starter?


Notice a trend here ? Schneider competed against easier opposition at EVERY stage of his development. What if we switched their role?
What in the name of Jeebus are you driving at here? What does this have to do with Bobrovsky? This may be the worst argument I've ever seen on HF and that's saying something... A Russian goalie coming through a completely different system in every conceiveable way is compareable to Cory Schneider? What the hell is going on here? This accomplishes absolutely nothing, why would you waste your time with that? I don't get this...

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10-30-2012, 12:01 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
I hear the same thing over and over and over again about Schneider. It's called forsight people. Scouting. Watch him. Note his career development:

- High School: Team Captain: 1.50 GAA; .954 SV% in 47 games.
- Boston College: Several trophies, records: 2.10 GAA; .926 SV% in 99 games.
- AHL: One of the top goalies in the AHL during his time there: 2.28 GAA; .928 SV% in 136 games.
- NHL: William Jennings Trophy, took starting job from Luongo: 2.24 GAA; 9.28 SV% in 68 games.

Notice a trend here? The guy has been an elite goaltender at EVERY level. This is about to change becuase he hasn't put up good numbers for more than 30 games? Look at the stats! He's never put up bad numbers...

The kid has one of the best heads I've ever seen in a goalie (was team captain in High School, a leader and locker-room guy all along) and he never gives up. He has unbeleiveable leg speed and quickness.

This isn't some flash in the pan. This is a top young goalie with extremley good pedigree. We're not talking Devan Dubnyk here. Schneider will be one of the best goalies in the NHL going forward. You can mark my words. I've watched goalies a long time.
I agree Schnieder at this point looks like a top young goalie and Van would be dumb to move him for anything less than elite value but i think your comments on Dubnyk are unfair. He was a 1st rounder too and like Schnieder has been good at every level. You have to understand his junior team was awful, his AHL team was awful, and his NHL team was awful and this has hurt his numbers (although they have still managed to be good). Schnieder by comparison has only played on quality teams iirc, this has helped his numbers. I agree Schnieder is ahead of Dubnyk but Dubnyk is well on his way to being a quality longterm starter. I did a comparison of young goalies near the end of last season and Dubnyk looked very good especially when team performance was factored in. I'll try to find it and post it. Basically my point is although Dubnyk, unlike Schnieder, isn't looking like a potential elite goalie he is looking like a quality starter at this point and the comment that his pedigree is lacking is just simply untrue.

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10-30-2012, 12:15 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
What in the name of Jeebus are you driving at here? What does this have to do with Bobrovsky? This may be the worst argument I've ever seen on HF and that's saying something... A Russian goalie coming through a completely different system in every conceiveable way is compareable to Cory Schneider? What the hell is going on here?
Bobrovsky is just an example, many other goalies did face stronger opposition at every stage of their development than Schneider.

Carey Price is a NHL starter since 21yo, Mason since 20yo, Quick since 22yo, Ward since 22yo, Fleury since 21yo. etc...

What if the bunch of them was an AHL backup at 21-22yo instead of being a NHL starter and at 25yo would still be NHL backup ?

The point is Schneider did face weaker opposition at every stage of his development than many NHL goalies. I just wonder what if a goalie like Cam Ward faced the same opposition than Schneider did and was a AHL goalie from 22-24yo ?

We should compare tomatoes with tomatoes.


Last edited by palindrom: 10-30-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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10-30-2012, 12:21 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I agree Schnieder at this point looks like a top young goalie and Van would be dumb to move him for anything less than elite value but i think your comments on Dubnyk are unfair. He was a 1st rounder too and like Schnieder has been good at every level. You have to understand his junior team was awful, his AHL team was awful, and his NHL team was awful and this has hurt his numbers (although they have still managed to be good). Schnieder by comparison has only played on quality teams iirc, this has helped his numbers. I agree Schnieder is ahead of Dubnyk but Dubnyk is well on his way to being a quality longterm starter. I did a comparison of young goalies near the end of last season and Dubnyk looked very good especially when team performance was factored in. I'll try to find it and post it. Basically my point is although Dubnyk, unlike Schnieder, isn't looking like a potential elite goalie he is looking like a quality starter at this point and the comment that his pedigree is lacking is just simply untrue.
I had season tickets to the Blazers for Dubnyk's final WHL season. I've followed him a long time. He does not have the skill-set Cory Schneider does. His leg speed is well below par and will decline with age. He's also not nearly the type of skater Schneider is. His pedigree IS lacking. I think any NHL scout would tell you the same. It's been the same story for Dubnyk since Kamloops. Legs are too slow, doesn't get accross very fast, doesn't recover very well from a shot (rebounds). Be a candidate to have an Alex Auld like career.

I'm not talking out of my butt here, Schneider is a special goalie and on another level from Dubnyk. Of course all a matter of my opinion and judgement.

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10-30-2012, 12:24 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Bobrovsky is just an example, many other goalies did face stronger opposition at every stage of their development than Schneider.

Carey Price is a NHL starter since 21yo, Mason since 20yo, Quick since 22yo, Ward since 22yo, Fleury since 21yo. etc...

What if the bunch of them was an AHL backup at 21-22yo instead of being a NHL starter and at 25yo would still be NHL backup ?

The point is Schneider did face weaker opposition at every stage of his development than many NHL goalies. I just wonder what if a goalie like Cam Ward faced the same opposition than Schneider did and was a AHL goalie from 22-25yo ?

We should compare tomatoes with tomatoes.
Where are you getting this stuff?

How is Phillips Academy -> Boston College -> AHL -> NHL "weaker opposition at every stage of his development than many NHL goalies"? What are you even talking about? You should quit while you're ahead, because I almost have the energy to tear your angle completley to shreds. Because it's complete and utter bollucks.

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10-30-2012, 12:28 PM
  #239
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Schneider was developed "properly" not "slowly." He did not face any weaker competition than any other goalie that earned their stripes in College and the AHL. You simply cannot compare the progression of goaltenders, they are all going to develop on their own path.

Bobrovsky, Price, whoever have NOTHING to do with Cory Schneider.

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10-30-2012, 12:47 PM
  #240
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I found the post i was talking about:

Quote:
There is no question playing on a top team has helped the stats line for Schnieder.

Lets look at the top young goalies their ages, save percentage, position on the depth chart, quality of team, and perhaps other key info.

Elliot ------- 26, .943, Backup - On a top team, .891 last year on two bad teams
Schnieder -- 26, .934, Backup - On a top team, possibly easier starts
Rask ------- 25, .929, Backup - On a top team, possibly easier starts
Halak ------ 26, .927, Starter - On a top team, backups numbers are unreal
Quick ------ 26, .926, Starter - Good team, top defence
Howard ---- 27, .920, Starter - Very good team
Fleury ----- 27, .918, Starter - On a top team
Harding ---- 27, .918, Backup - Poor team, possibly easier starts, numbers regressed as team got worse.
Price ------- 24, .917, Starter - Poor team
Enroth ------ 23, .916, Backup - Average team, possibly easier starts
Dubnyk ---- 25, .914, Co-Starter - Poor team, poor defence
Varlamov --- 23, .913, Starter - Average team, had very high value last offseason
Bishop ------ 25, .912, Backup - Only 9 games, returned a 2nd, sv% last year .899
Bernier ------ 23, .911, Backup - See Quick, Only 15 games, sv% last year .913
Pavelec ----- 24, .909, Starter - Average team
Crawford ---- 27, .902, Starter - Very good team
Reimer ------ 24, .900, Co-Starter - Poor team
Neuvirth ---- 24, .900, Backup - Average team
Bobrovsky -- 23, .899, Backup - Very good team
Mason ------ 23, .895, Starter - Worst team, former Calder winner

When we look at this we can see that the 7 best save percentages of goalies 27 and under belong to players who play on contenders. The next guy on the list Harding plays in a defensive system, and compiled much of his best numbers early in the season when Minnesota was in 1st place, after him it's Price (a possible franchise goalie), and competent goalies on bad teams. Now goaltending performance is part of the reason these teams are good, but there is no doubt IMO that good teams can reduce the quality of chances on net improving the sv% of their goaltender. It's still the best stat to use in goalie to goalie analysis, it just has to be understood to have context.
It seems to me there is a fairly obvious correlation between sv% and the quality of team.

Note: These stats were compiled near the end of the 11-12 season so they may have changed a bit since then, but probably not by alot.

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10-30-2012, 12:47 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Schneider was developed "properly" not "slowly." He did not face any weaker competition than any other goalie that earned their stripes in College and the AHL. You simply cannot compare the progression of goaltenders, they are all going to develop on their own path.

Bobrovsky, Price, whoever have NOTHING to do with Cory Schneider.
Did Price, Ward, Brodeur, Roy developed "properly" ?

They didnt properly develop in the AHL (not playing for more than a season than a season, or totally skipped this part of their developement) as didnt mature and take experience as NHL backup

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10-30-2012, 12:50 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Lets compare Schneider development to Bobrovsky!

From 19yo-21yo:
Schneider is doing well in college
From 20yo-21yo:
Bobrovsky is a starter playing against men in the KHL

From 21-22yo
Schneider is a backup in the AHL
From 22-24yo
Schneider is a AHL Starter

From 22-23yo
Bobrovsky is a NHL starter (2010-2011) then a NHL backup (2011-2012) in the NHL

From 25-26yo
Schneider is a backup in the NHL
From 24-26yo will Bobrovsky be a backup or starter?


Notice a trend here ? Schneider competed against easier opposition at EVERY stage of his development. What if we switched their role?
Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Bobrovsky is just an example, many other goalies did face stronger opposition at every stage of their development than Schneider.

Carey Price is a NHL starter since 21yo, Mason since 20yo, Quick since 22yo, Ward since 22yo, Fleury since 21yo. etc...

What if the bunch of them was an AHL backup at 21-22yo instead of being a NHL starter and at 25yo would still be NHL backup ?

The point is Schneider did face weaker opposition at every stage of his development than many NHL goalies. I just wonder what if a goalie like Cam Ward faced the same opposition than Schneider did and was a AHL goalie from 22-24yo ?

We should compare tomatoes with tomatoes.
So maybe we developed Schneider better? Maybe he didn't make the jump as quick as we had an all-star goalie in Luongo? Who cares, really. I just want the season to start so we can end the bickering.

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10-30-2012, 12:51 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I found the post i was talking about:



It seems to me there is a fairly obvious correlation between sv% and the quality of team.

Note: These stats were compiled near the end of the 11-12 season so they may have changed a bit since then, but probably not by alot.
There is a correlation indeed, study show it, but its not as strong a correlation as people think.

Its about 0.06%
Luck alone have a greater impact over than a season (40-60gp) on the save% stats.

I dont remember any study about the quality of the opposition on saves%, i would be curious to see it.

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10-30-2012, 12:53 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
So maybe we developed Schneider better? Maybe he didn't make the jump as quick as we had an all-star goalie in Luongo? Who cares, really. I just want the season to start so we can end the bickering.
My opinion, which i agree is arguable is: Vancouver didnt make a full use of Schneider career peak.

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10-30-2012, 01:22 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
My opinion, which i agree is arguable is: Vancouver didnt make a full use of Schneider career peak.
That's true, but it's also true that would have been a mistake to attempt to do so.

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10-30-2012, 01:45 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
As others have stated, the only way the Canucks would trade Scheider period would be for an overpayment. I think most GM's know that this guy is one of the better young goalies out there. To trade him within the division would require an even bigger overpayment.
Can the few nuck fans who didnt bother to read a single post stop coming in and posting this. Oiler fans didnt make the thread asking for a goalie it was vancouver fans wanting pieces off of our team.

There wont be an overpayment for him, ever, so stop saying only way to trade him is overpayment because its you guys trying to trade him


Last edited by Jamin: 10-30-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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10-30-2012, 01:45 PM
  #247
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That's true, but it's also true that would have been a mistake to attempt to do so.
Probably, it depends how we see it.

What if summer 2009, Vancouver doesnt re sign Luongo and have confidence in Schneider to be their next number #01

Then use Luongo money (10 000 000$ at the time). To convince a top UFA to join Vancouver while Schneider earn only 900 000$

in this scenario do vancouver have less or more thance to win the cup?

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10-30-2012, 01:46 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
My opinion, which i agree is arguable is: Vancouver didnt make a full use of Schneider career peak.
But how so? It was pretty clear he wasn't ready in 08/09 when Luongo was injured, he got a shot then. And that was when he was in the midst of putting up stellar numbers in the AHL. The season after he challenged in camp for a back-up role, but he was clearly outplayed by Raycroft. The season after, which was the 10/11 season, you noticed a completely different Schneider in camp. Arguably, he could have been a starter that season, but it certainly didn't hurt him to play back-up to an all-star goalie for a year. Then, just last season was the first season where Schneider was truely without question geared for a starting role. Including playoffs he played in 36 games last season and over through Luongo for the starting role on two separate occasions.

How would you suggest the Canucks handle the situation differently? They weren't going to trade Luongo until they knew what they truely had in Schneider. If anything, Schneider could have been a starting last season rather than this season. It's just a year, it's not as if it's a big deal in any capacity. I'd rather bring goalies along slowly rather than rush them.

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10-30-2012, 01:48 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Probably, it depends how we see it.

What if summer 2009, Vancouver doesnt re sign Luongo and have confidence in Schneider to be their next number #01

Then use Luongo money (10 000 000$ at the time). To convince a top UFA to join Vancouver while Schneider earn only 900 000$

in this scenario do vancouver have less or more thance to win the cup?
I'll comment on this as well: Less. Schneider was not ready then, and nobody truely knew how good he would be. We were 1 game away from winning it all, we would not have got there if it wasn't for Luongo. Also, there's no telling Schneider would be as good as he is, or get there as quickly, if it wasnt for Luongo.

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10-30-2012, 01:48 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Dubnyk's contract is for 3.5mil and not for the next 9 yrs or what ever it is and he is a lot younger. Khabi's contract is a bad one at 4.75 but is gone after this year, at least the Oiler's are saving money on that terrible contract. Also Horc was due 6mil in cash this year so he must be pissed as his contract cash starts to drop next year.
Bulin wall is only 3.75

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