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Why so much hatred and criticism towards the players?

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Old
10-30-2012, 01:26 PM
  #251
digdug41982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
The recession is a reality for fans-they have to decide where the money goes that they earn from these mundane jobs for which you appear to have so much contempt.

All of that money the players think they deserve comes from the fans.

If they don't pay the money those players don't get their overblown salaries. They can play in Europe where the games are more affordable for the fans and the players earn a fraction of what they make in North America..

For a fan it is more important to support a local owner keeping the team in the city and providing and keeping up a venue long term than to blow it away on a player who may be in the city for a couple of years and evidently feels entitled to make as much money as he can lay his hands on for-oh lets just say-a new Ferrari.
i work a mundane job too. If I don't want to spend my money on the NHL, I will cancel my tickets. My main concern is the owners getting too much. I will never support my local owner (Wirtz) who is trying to bleed every Hawks fan dry, just raised drink prices 50-75 cents.

Meanwhile, last weekend I went to a game played by NHL players for free to raise money for a charity and payed less than 20 bucks a ticket for pretty good seats.

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10-30-2012, 01:29 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Master Shake View Post
ticket prices are high as hell and its because of player salaries
Not at all true.

Prices are set by owners according to what the consumers in their market are willing to pay. So frankly, high ticket prices are the fans' fault.

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10-30-2012, 01:30 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
i work a mundane job too. If I don't want to spend my money on the NHL, I will cancel my tickets. My main concern is the owners getting too much. I will never support my local owner (Wirtz) who is trying to bleed every Hawks fan dry, just raised drink prices 50-75 cents.
A lot depends on the location. in Toronto I am sure most fans don't think the owners need any extra cash and see this as a cash grab for the owners.

But for most of the medium and small market teams, more money being channeled to the ownership group means a more stable franchise..

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10-30-2012, 01:31 PM
  #254
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AND! player % are determined by revenue numbers which are from fan support. So the lockout is the fans fault! err

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10-30-2012, 01:38 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
A lot depends on the location. in Toronto I am sure most fans don't think the owners need any extra cash and see this as a cash grab for the owners.

But for most of the medium and small market teams, more money being channeled to the ownership group means a more stable franchise..
I fully support the owners of Chicago, Toronto, New York, Montreal, etc. sharing their profits with the poorer teams to help sustain them. If they don't want to do that, they should contract a few teams then because the players aren't going to pay for it. Did the players get a share of the expansion fees when these teams joined the league? No, they didn't. But now they should take less money because things didn't go according to plan for the owners? Well, they actually are willing to take less money to help out. They are not fighting to keep the 57% they had. But not only do the owners want to keep their own money, they want the players to take less to fix the problems of the weak owners but that's not even enough, they want to dictate the terms too. They can go to hell, that's bull ****.

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10-30-2012, 01:39 PM
  #256
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Most of the arguments being expressed against the players seem to relate to the general issue of athletes getting paid too much. But don't hockey players have the same right to receive those excessive salaries as do athletes in any other pro sports? I could generalize too and argue that I'm against the players because I don't have sympathy with athletes in general receiving such quantities and complaining if someone is trying to cut into their salaries; BUT I don't see that as the issue here.

Hell, the same argument could be made against the owners. These billionaires who don't run their hobby business well and end up losing a few million $, I mean, what's that compared to the billions they make elsewhere. At least the players are on the ice playing/working their 82-game schedule to earn their $. The owners are primarily just behind the scenes handing out cheques and giving the responsibility to others to run or manage the teams. BUT then, hey, I'm not here arguing against billionaire owners either.

I see two issues:
1) the players trying to protect what they negotiated to receive in their contracts.
2) the owners trying to cut costs so that not so many of them end up losing money each Season.

Both seem to be reasonable objectives, IMO. Though I do think that the owners are in a big part responsible for their economic woes; and I think that they need to burden some of that responsibility and not try to compensate for it by demanding that the players have to take less than what they negotiated to receive. The lower costs to the owners should be in moving forward from here, not by making changes to contracts that have already been signed (at least not ones that have been signed and already played on).


Last edited by MoreOrr: 10-30-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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10-30-2012, 01:39 PM
  #257
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I love americans but in canada hockey rules in ratings.In europe the nfl gets almost nil ratings and baseball people ask what is that?Outside of basketball and baseball in parts asia and central america the other sports get little or know coverage in media.In team sports soccer rugby crictet and formula1 get most of print and tv coverage.American sport gets very little coverage overseas.

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10-30-2012, 01:42 PM
  #258
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I knew it would come down to player salaries being too high.

And there's no way as someone who holds a degree in Economics I will be able to understand the majority opinion, because it just speaks to a lack of understanding in the laws of supply and demand.

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10-30-2012, 01:45 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
i work a mundane job too. If I don't want to spend my money on the NHL, I will cancel my tickets. My main concern is the owners getting too much. I will never support my local owner (Wirtz) who is trying to bleed every Hawks fan dry, just raised drink prices 50-75 cents.

Meanwhile, last weekend I went to a game played by NHL players for free to raise money for a charity and payed less than 20 bucks a ticket for pretty good seats.
No kidding...it's the same with MLSE. There are owners who are doing just fine who have no problem pillaging fans for every cent they can just because demand for tickets is high.

I wish the NHL would take more ownership of the fact it's put teams in cities where the fans just don't care to watch hockey - and, thus, aren't getting the gate receipts, etc. It's not just a "parity" issue - i can think of two teams who won the cup relatively recently and the people in their respective cities still don't care about hockey. There are also teams that have made the playoffs consistently and still have low turnout at their games. We're stuck in a lockout while the NHL tries to force the stability of some franchises with very few fans! You could put Sidney Crosby on the Yotes and no one in that city would care

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10-30-2012, 01:48 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Gretzky is one thing, this is not about the stars only. And yes we have had lots of comparisons to every day workers on the one hand and self entitled arrogance on the other.
... obviously I used Gretzky as an extreme example to make a point, but really, any decent enough player with pro potential is identified early in life, from Pee Wee to Bantam, some late bloomers' into Midget. Some guys who through hard work & earlier passed over in the various Drafts (St.Louis for eg) coming up through NCAA, the minors, walk-on's.

But you take any one of them from AA or AAA at the amateur levels and ya, they were told they were special, had a "gift", could possibly live the dream, definitely would in a lot of cases. Im not being argumentative here with you pepty, just sayin that the sort of character & attitude that this sort of social environment engenders in the individual can easily be misinterpreted as arrogance, one of the by-products being ugly self entitlement, over-inflated ego.

Generally speaking however, my experiences in getting to know many players over the years, having played at a higher level myself, making a living in the entertainment sector for over 30yrs now, you simply cant broad brush the entire sector as being self-entitled self-absorbed narcissist's. Hockey players in particular are noted for being down to earth, benevolent, heads screwed on straight individuals. Why, even Call Girls claim hockey players are their favourite clients in comparison to NFL, NBA or MLB players. Nice, down to earth boys one and all. I mean c'mon here.

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10-30-2012, 02:19 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Most of the arguments being expressed against the players seem to relate to the general issue of athletes getting paid too much.
I don't think that is really the case. They should have a share of revenue that is more in line with the other sports however especially as there is not as much money to go around in the NHL.

It is mainly when they cry poor or pretend to be working stiffs that there is blow-back from the fans.

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10-30-2012, 02:23 PM
  #262
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The blow back has been here since the beginning.

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10-30-2012, 02:26 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I don't think that is really the case. They should have a share of revenue that is more in line with the other sports however especially as there is not as much money to go around in the NHL.

It is mainly when they cry poor or pretend to be working stiffs that there is blow-back from the fans.
And where has someone done that? I think that's nothing more than how some people are interpreting their words. No player is actually saying what you're suggesting (but if they are, then yes, it's stupid).

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10-30-2012, 02:30 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I knew it would come down to player salaries being too high.

And there's no way as someone who holds a degree in Economics I will be able to understand the majority opinion, because it just speaks to a lack of understanding in the laws of supply and demand.
If it was based on player salary that would allude to a Labour Theory of Value, while if it is based on what fans are willing to pay it would be the subjective theory of value.

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10-30-2012, 02:33 PM
  #265
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-99% of the players who spoke out have no actual understanding of numbers and finance because they've already lost 26.5% of their salaries.
-99% of the players who spoke out put all the blame on the owners.
-Growing up most people are taught that 50/50 is the fair distribution of things while the players believe otherwise.
-Suter ditch his morals and backtrack after insulting his owner while Roy brags about how much public disturbance every time he starts his Ferrari.

The average NHL salary could be 4 M for all I care but as long as it's more than a tiny niche sport in the US. The players still believe the show they offer is godly and irreplaceable but the majority of Americans don't give a rat's ass about them.


Last edited by CN_paladin: 10-30-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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10-30-2012, 02:43 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
And where has someone done that? I think that's nothing more than how some people are interpreting their words. No player is actually saying what you're suggesting (but if they are, then yes, it's stupid).
... and even if a handful are, so what? People are going to say stupid things from time-time. Youve got over 700 members. Most assuredly there is the odd Wingnut who just cant help himself. But to then portray the entire membership as such is to do a major disservice to a very small group who's contributions to society as a whole are substantial on a multitude of levels. In light of how the NHL has treated labour since 1956, from 67 on the PA run by a collusive & corrupt leadership, the appalling pension suit, serious gains really only made in 94, I have a real hard time reading post after vitriolic post, wondering at times if Frank Luntz and his minions havent infiltrated the site, compromising its objectivity, integrity.

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10-30-2012, 02:44 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
The players still believe the show they offer is godly and irreplaceable but the majority of Americans don't give a rat's ass about them.
Then why the hell is it such a priority to keep / prop up teams in their cities?

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10-30-2012, 02:46 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... and even if a handful are, so what? People are going to say stupid things from time-time. Youve got over 700 members. Most assuredly there is the odd Wingnut who just cant help himself. But to then portray the entire membership as such is to do a major disservice to a very small group who's contributions to society as a whole are substantial on a multitude of levels. In light of how the NHL has treated labour since 1956, from 67 on the PA run by a collusive & corrupt leadership, the appalling pension suit, serious gains really only made in 94, I have a real hard time reading post after vitriolic post, wondering at times if Frank Luntz and his minions havent infiltrated the site, compromising its objectivity, integrity.
Funny thing is every other site I read a poll on blames the owners 70%+. Here I'd say it is 80 / 20 in favor of supporting owners.

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10-30-2012, 02:51 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
The players still believe the show they offer is godly and irreplaceable but the majority of Americans don't give a rat's ass about them.
The majority of Americans give enough of a rat's ass to drive revenue up to $3 billion.

And if the show that they offer is so replaceable, then why is it that fans are whining and crying so loudly to 'just get it done', 'just drop the puck', or that '50/50 is fair, just sign it and get on the ice'...

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10-30-2012, 02:56 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... and even if a handful are, so what? People are going to say stupid things from time-time. Youve got over 700 members. Most assuredly there is the odd Wingnut who just cant help himself. But to then portray the entire membership as such is to do a major disservice to a very small group who's contributions to society as a whole are substantial on a multitude of levels. In light of how the NHL has treated labour since 1956, from 67 on the PA run by a collusive & corrupt leadership, the appalling pension suit, serious gains really only made in 94, I have a real hard time reading post after vitriolic post, wondering at times if Frank Luntz and his minions havent infiltrated the site, compromising its objectivity, integrity.
C'mon Killion...post after vitriolic post? Little hyperbolic - no?

What's wrong with Frank Luntz? I think the players should be encouraging the NHL to prop up and protect the brand in any way possible right now, as they surely at some point will be working under a % of revenue in said league.

I really just think that people are all hurt when they read stuff from Barch and the like asking them to essentially sympathize with their plight. Just as it would be ridiculous for any owner with whom they can't relate to come out and suggest how bad things are (ala Daryl Katz).

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10-30-2012, 03:03 PM
  #271
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I think it's fairly simple as to why public opinion is against the players. They, quite frankly, come off as out of touch with reality.

Yes, it's not their fault that the Phoenix Coyotes are on life support, and it's not their fault that Ed Snider offered Shea Weber a ridiculous offer sheet, but at the end of the day, they are the employees. As ****** as it may seem, and as unfair as it may seem, employees often pay the price for management's mistakes.
When a brokerage firm makes a bad investment, they may have to lay off employees to stay afloat. Is it fair? No. Did the laid off employees contribute to the situation? Probably not. But **** happens, and that's they way our economy works.

Only difference? NHLers are worried about going from an average salary of 2.1 million to 1.6 million, while the secretary from the brokerage firm may be going from $40 000 to $0.

That doesn't exactly resonate with fans.

Hell, even when you look at other entertainment industries, NHLers are extremely well off. Take the film industry. I'd say the majority of people would agree that blockbuster actors are overpaid. But they don't get close to 50% of revenues.

Not only that, but I routinely hear players say "well, the reason fans come to games is because of us, so we should get 57 or whatever percent of revenues". But this isn't completely true. One of the reasons that fans come to games is to watch those specific players play, sure, but there are a bevy of other reasons. Fans go because it's a spectacle that the owners put on, because they can socialize with their friends in an environment facilitated by the owners, they can eat at restaurants in the venue, etc. It's an entire entertainment experience, and the players are a part of it, but not the only part.

At the end of the day, the players are responsible for playing. The owners are responsible for making sure that there's a place for the game to take place, that the tickets are sold, that the fans have a good time, that everyone is kept safe, etc.

So why should the players get 57%? They sure as hell don't do 57% of the work.

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10-30-2012, 03:12 PM
  #272
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I've got no hate for the players. And I don't begrudge their high salaries. And I have no problem with private sector unions. But they are being idiots in holding out for a better deal that they aren't going to get. They don't have the leverage. It's not admirable or noble to do something pointless that is doomed to fail. They aren't the oppressed working man fighting against The Man.

The players are a wealthy elite who, in their effort to become even wealthier, have drastically misjudged how much leverage they have. And now, out of pride or anger, are refusing to admit they screwed up. There's nothing morally good or evil about it, but it is stupid. When you have a weak hand you fold.

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10-30-2012, 03:15 PM
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
1) 99% of the players who spoke out have no actual understanding of numbers and finance because they've already lost 26.5% of their salaries.

2) 99% of the players who spoke out put all the blame on the owners.

3) Growing up most people are taught that 50/50 is the fair distribution of things while the players believe otherwise.

4) Suter ditch his morals and backtrack after insulting his owner while Roy brags about how much public disturbance every time he starts his Ferrari.

5) The players still believe the show they offer is godly and irreplaceable but the majority of Americans don't give a rat's ass about them.
1) Tell ya what, someone signs you to a multi-year million dollar plus Contract with a 6 figure or more signing bonus at 18 or 20, your gonna learn real quick, your agent, parents & peers insisting on it.

2) Of course they did, because the owners are the ones responsible for the mess. The players are passengers, they dont have a hand on the wheel.

3) Sure 50/50 is "fair" when yer like, 10. Real life doesnt work like that. Almost all partnerships are 49/51. Frankly, Im a capitalist and believe ownership should be entitled to make 55, 60, Hell, 75% if possible. But when your turning close to $3B in revenues and actually seeing your profitability being flushed & wiped out due to Labour costs, the single biggest expense, then you civilly, honestly & directly engage the Union, open your books, patiently explain the facts of life, sell them on "shared sacrifice" and a bright sunny day down the road. You dont roll out the Rhino Mounted Unbuntu Shock Troops.

4) So Suter & Roy are a coupla kids with more money than sense, shoot their mouths' off without thinking. So what? Are they "A-Typical" of the entire membership or simply "A-Typical ***h***s"? I believe the latter. You have people like that in every group.

5) Really? I believe Americans are actually a Hell of a lot more enlightened & intelligent than the World gives them credit for. Maybe you should ask the fans in Miami, Tampa, Phoenix, Carolina, LA, Chicago & elsewhere how they feel about it? Who cares about the "majority"? We know hockey is a niche' sport, the reasons for it being so are many, the responsibility for it being so lying at the feet of the NHL & its member clubs who for generations have insured it stays that way in running their shady operation's like Crime Inc or more accurately Maxwell Smarts nemesis, KAOS. You dont think the thousands of businesses & charities from Philly to San Jose' who's revenues have disappeared thanks to the NHL's tactics "dont care"?

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