HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-30-2012, 06:21 AM
  #826
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianDestroyer View Post
I'm really calling a lot of doubt on this one: no way is the NHL expanding to 32 teams anytime soon (another southern team will move to Canada before that ever happens). Another team in Toronto seems to have become the popular rumor to be kicked around on a slow news day: I can't imagine anyone wanting to have a team in the same city as the Leafs. Yeah, the Leafs have the longest running active drought at the moment but no way are its fans going to throw away what is essentially family loyalty for what could be seen as an upstart. Quebec, though, I can see happening but not via expansion but through another team move like I mentioned.
Half the population of Toronto wasn't even born in Canada. Then factor in a whole bunch of transplants to Toronto from other parts of the country. This Leafs "family loyalty" thing doesn't really exist any more. Kids now in Toronto have absolutely no reason to like the Leafs, even if their parents and grandparents did.

Today's adult generation grew up being force fed Leafs and only Leafs on TV during the long and painful 1980's, they really had no choice but to like the Leafs. There are far more non-Leaf fans in Toronto today than ever before. Internet, TSN and NHL Centre Ice assure that you can get non-Leaf coverage day and night.

A second team in Toronto is a no-brainer. Ottawa was at least in theory full of Leaf and Habs fans before the Senators showed up and now there's a whole bunch of Senators fans. Same thing would happen in Toronto - some portion of fans would decide the new Markham Majors would be their favourite team, others would still be Leaf fans but would actually go to Markham for games. It would work. Easily a top-10 revenue team in the NHL.

CGG is offline  
Old
10-30-2012, 12:13 PM
  #827
Flyerfan52
Registered User
 
Flyerfan52's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Half the population of Toronto wasn't even born in Canada. Then factor in a whole bunch of transplants to Toronto from other parts of the country. This Leafs "family loyalty" thing doesn't really exist any more. Kids now in Toronto have absolutely no reason to like the Leafs, even if their parents and grandparents did.

Today's adult generation grew up being force fed Leafs and only Leafs on TV during the long and painful 1980's, they really had no choice but to like the Leafs. There are far more non-Leaf fans in Toronto today than ever before. Internet, TSN and NHL Centre Ice assure that you can get non-Leaf coverage day and night.

A second team in Toronto is a no-brainer. Ottawa was at least in theory full of Leaf and Habs fans before the Senators showed up and now there's a whole bunch of Senators fans. Same thing would happen in Toronto - some portion of fans would decide the new Markham Majors would be their favourite team, others would still be Leaf fans but would actually go to Markham for games. It would work. Easily a top-10 revenue team in the NHL.
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).

Flyerfan52 is offline  
Old
10-30-2012, 12:19 PM
  #828
syc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not Europe
Posts: 1,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Your point is that Leaf fans in Vancouver didn't stay Leaf fans when the a better Canucks team got to town so the same outcome will happen to Leaf fans in Toronto when Markham gets a team? Seriously?

syc is offline  
Old
10-30-2012, 12:38 PM
  #829
Buck Aki Berg
My pockets hurt
 
Buck Aki Berg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,851
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by syc View Post
Your point is that Leaf fans in Vancouver didn't stay Leaf fans when the a better Canucks team got to town so the same outcome will happen to Leaf fans in Toronto when Markham gets a team? Seriously?
I'm sure the Rangers lost plenty of fans to the Islanders in the early 80s.

Buck Aki Berg is online now  
Old
10-30-2012, 01:48 PM
  #830
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 40,162
vCash: 500
thats probably less true. they last tier 2 and tier 3 fans that spent little if any actual money on the rangers.

txpd is offline  
Old
10-30-2012, 02:07 PM
  #831
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,428
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
I'm sure the Rangers lost plenty of fans to the Islanders in the early 80s.
Yup - and it started in the 70's

Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats probably less true. they last tier 2 and tier 3 fans that spent little if any actual money on the rangers.
Not true. I knew quite a few Ranger fans - including families with Rangers STs - who quickly switched allegiances.

The fact that it was a Long Island team was a strong draw - getting out of the shadows of NYC.

This was also a contributing factor to the early success of the Sharks - that it was a San Jose team, not a SF one.

kdb209 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 06:45 AM
  #832
voyageur
Registered lunatic
 
voyageur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: negotiable
Country: Canada
Posts: 409
vCash: 500
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.

If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:

WEST

Pacific

Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim

Northwest

Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota

Central

Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas

EAST

Northeast

Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec

Atlantic

Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly

American

Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa

I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.

voyageur is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 02:28 PM
  #833
Hero
Raptors 13/14
 
Hero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,859
vCash: 50
Love it.

Imo Toronto/Quebec both would be excellent.

Hero is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 09:52 AM
  #834
JayKing
Go Habs Go
 
JayKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,417
vCash: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.

If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:

WEST

Pacific

Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim

Northwest

Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota

Central

Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas

EAST

Northeast

Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec

Atlantic

Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly

American

Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa

I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
Great job.

JayKing is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 03:32 PM
  #835
wildthing202
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Douglas, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 619
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to wildthing202 Send a message via Yahoo to wildthing202
Quote:
Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.

If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:

WEST

Pacific

Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim

Northwest

Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota

Central

Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas

EAST

Northeast

Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec

Atlantic

Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly

American

Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa

I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
Swap Pitt/Clb and/or Wash with Dal/Nash and/or St.L then it would be great.

wildthing202 is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 03:42 PM
  #836
DyerMaker66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I don't believe this because don't the Maple Leafs have a say on if another team was to start up in the Toronto area?
The Leafs new owners are 2 communications companies: Adding a team in their market can now make them money (let's say by giving them broadcasting rights) where-as previously another team would've only hurt their value (in theory; I don't really believe it would though).

DyerMaker66 is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 03:45 PM
  #837
DyerMaker66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Hell, we were force fed them even after those teams were added: My only relief from them on Saturday night is CHEX (Who usually shows my second favourite team, The Jets) .

DyerMaker66 is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 03:45 PM
  #838
No Fun Shogun
Global Moderator
34-38-61-10-13
 
No Fun Shogun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicagoland, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 24,916
vCash: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
The Leafs new owners are 2 communications companies: Adding a team in their market can now make them money (let's say by giving them broadcasting rights) where-as previously another team would've only hurt their value (in theory; I don't really believe it would though).
The question is what's more valuable to the new owners.... the broadcasting/indemnity rights for a second team in the GTA/southern Ontario or their monopoly over southern Ontario?

It's a stance I could really see them going either way on.

No Fun Shogun is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 03:58 PM
  #839
tp71
Enjoy every sandwich
 
tp71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,459
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Force fed? Yes, they strapped you to a chair and said you watch this or else right? No one "forced" the Leafs or the Canadiens upon anyone.

tp71 is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
  #840
SerenityRick
Registered User
 
SerenityRick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Moultonborough, NH
Country: United States
Posts: 14,009
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to SerenityRick
Quote:
Originally Posted by voyageur View Post

Northeast

Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec

Atlantic

Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly
Not bad except Boston and Montreal not being divisional rivals anymore would be extremely controversial

SerenityRick is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 08:57 PM
  #841
DyerMaker66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp71 View Post
Force fed? Yes, they strapped you to a chair and said you watch this or else right? No one "forced" the Leafs or the Canadiens upon anyone.
The Leafs being the 7 PM game on CBC for 70+ years wasn't them being forced upon hockey fans? Fans of the NHL had a choice between watching the Leafs, listening to a language you don't fully understand, or watching nothing and you say that they weren't forced upon everyone else in this country?

DyerMaker66 is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 08:59 PM
  #842
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,656
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
The Leafs being the 7 PM game on CBC for 70+ years wasn't them being forced upon hockey fans? Fans of the NHL had a choice between watching the Leafs, listening to a language you don't fully understand, or watching nothing and you say that they weren't forced upon everyone else in this country?
Correct. You have a problem with Conn Smythe, the Molsons?.

Killion is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 09:02 PM
  #843
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,066
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Correct. You have a problem with Conn Smythe, the Molsons?.
There's a reason why there were only two teams in Canada for ages: Toronto and Montreal wanted a monopoly on the country and fought like hell to keep other teams out. Regard "The Great Molson Boycott"

SaintPatrick33 is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 09:21 PM
  #844
DyerMaker66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Correct. You have a problem with Conn Smythe, the Molsons?.
I have a very large problem with a lack of diversity in the market place, as well as under-serving markets that keep your franchises in business.

DyerMaker66 is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 09:21 PM
  #845
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,656
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
There's a reason why there were only two teams in Canada for ages: Toronto and Montreal wanted a monopoly on the country and fought like hell to keep other teams out. Regard "The Great Molson Boycott"
... mm. Its complicated. Over a glass of beer. I dont drink the **** so go figure. Over Beer? Could not be possibly be?.

Killion is online now  
Old
11-12-2012, 09:31 PM
  #846
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,066
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... mm. Its complicated. Over a glass of beer. I dont drink the **** so go figure. Over Beer? Could not be possibly be?.
Back in '79 Montreal and Toronto blocked the NHL/WHA merger because they didn't want any more teams in Canada and the merger stood to add another three teams to the Great White North. This led to outrage and a massive nationwide boycott of Molson in Canada that forced Montreal to switch it's vote and allow the merger (Toronto never did end it's opposition but fans only needed one of them to switch to get the merger through).

SaintPatrick33 is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 11:23 PM
  #847
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.

If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:

WEST

Pacific

Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim

Northwest

Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota

Central

Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas

EAST

Northeast

Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec

Atlantic

Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly

American

Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa

I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
Ahh, it's good, I wouldn't complain with that. But it could be better:

Quote:
PACIFIC
Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim
That Division should be matched with something similar in the east, or else Vancouver's alignment sticks out like a sore thumb. For Example:
NORTHEAST
Montreal
Boston
NY Islanders
NY Rangers
New Jersey

(which also keeps Montreal and Boston together)

Having your other western Canadian-content Division
Quote:
NORTHWEST
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Match this eastern one:
GREAT LAKES
Ottawa
Toronto
Buffalo
Detroit
Chicago

Now, no matter how much I think 2 Florida teams are at least 1 Florida team too many, there is no immediate sign that either team is going to disappear anytime soon:
Quote:
AMERICAN
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
The problem still remains though as to which three other teams would combine with the two Florida teams to create a well-rounded hockey Division. Other than one idea of combining the Florida teams with the NYC area teams, another option could be this one:
ATLANTIC
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Washington
Tampa Bay
Florida

(also keeps the Pennsylvania teams together)

Now that changes up your
Quote:
CENTRAL
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas
To make this
CENTRAL
Dallas
St Louis
Nashville
Columbus
Carolina

A Division which I think creates an interesting mix and potential for those teams.

Putting that all together:
WestEast
PACIFICNORTHEAST
VancouverMontreal
SeattleBoston
San JoseNY Islanders
Los AngelesNY Rangers
AnaheimNew Jersey
PortlandQuebec City
- -
GREAT LAKESNORTHWEST
OttawaEdmonton
TorontoCalgary
BuffaloWinnipeg
DetroitMinnesota
ChicagoColorado
Southern OntMilwaukee
- -
CENTRALATLANTIC
DallasFlorida
St LouisTampa Bay
NashvilleWashington
ColumbusPhiladelphia
CarolinaPittsburgh
Kansas CityAtlanta

Blue = Expansion 1, Red = Expansion 2, Purple = Expansion 3.
(Ultimately Atlanta could flip Divisions with Carolina.)

Also notice that there are 3 Orig-6 teams in both Conferences.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 11-12-2012 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Naming error
MoreOrr is offline  
Old
11-12-2012, 11:28 PM
  #848
Dado
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
As a Vancouver fan, I *hate* that Pacific division. I want at least a couple of teams in my division that have "hockey or death" type fan bases. Swap a couple of the Cali teams for Edmonton and Calgary, and it's a whole lot more acceptable.

 
Old
11-12-2012, 11:54 PM
  #849
saskriders
ColinGreening's#1fan
 
saskriders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Calgary/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,248
vCash: 1322
I say do this (with divisional playoffs, assuming no relocation, and assuming that the expansion teams are Quebec and Southern Ontario)
SmytheNorrisAdamsPatrick
VancouverWinnipegSouthern OntarioNYR
CalgaryMinnesotaOttawaNYI
EdmontonChicagoTorontoNJ
LADetroitMontrealPittsburgh
AnaheimSt LouisQuebecPhiladelphia
SJNashvilleBuffaloWashington
ColoradoDallasBostonTampa
PhoenixColumbusCarolinaFlorida

If Phoenix moves to Seattle they can stay in the division

saskriders is offline  
Old
11-13-2012, 01:55 AM
  #850
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,800
vCash: 500
Orr, you know I love your Mix East And West agenda.

However, there's a number of things I'd change.
If you're adding six markets, why not use the markets themselves to solve why W-E conferences don't work?

For example, if we add QUE and Southern Ontario, we have 18 ETZ teams. Why not simply add four more in the WEST instead of Atlanta (who's lost a team twice)?

TOR, BUF, PIT, DET, CBJ, SO ONT
BOS, QUE, MON, OTT, WAS, CAR
NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI, FLA, TB

MIN, CHI, STL, NSH, DAL, Houston
WIN, EDM, CAL, COL, PHX, Salt Lake
LA, ANA, SJS, VAN, SEA, Portland

Houston is larger than MIL, MIL is right on top of CHI while HOU is four hours from DAL.

Salt Lake is smaller than KC or MIL, but would give Colorado a regional rival.

KevFu is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:38 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.