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Old
10-29-2012, 07:25 PM
  #76
Weztex
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1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Bobby Hull
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Maurice Richard
8. Eddie Shore
9. Doug Harvey
10. Raymond Bourque/Patrick Roy

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Old
10-29-2012, 07:28 PM
  #77
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
any reason nobody has denis potvin in their top 10?

he had a solid 15 year career, first defenceman to 1000 points, 3 norris trophies, and captain of 4 stanley cup winning teams. retired leading all defensemen in points, goals & assists

not as flashy as orr, but i think he was better than ray borque. any thoughts?
Potvin's right on the bubble IMO, I give him strong consideration for top 10.

I'm surprised to see almost no mention of Lafleur, Espo, Mikita, etc.

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10-29-2012, 07:32 PM
  #78
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I'll play.

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Doug Harvey
7. Bobby Hull
8. Maurice Richard
9. Howie Morenz
10. Patrick Roy

HM: Raymond Bourque

I have a hard time ranking Jagr. Well, I have an easy time ranking him among RWs - he's clearcut #3 for me behind the Rocket. But versus all players? I feel like there isn't much, if anything, that separates Jagr from Morenz, so should Jagr be #10? On the other hand, I watched Jagr's entire career and never feared him as much in big games as I feared Mark Messier. So I have a hard time ranking him much above Messier, despite the Art Rosses.

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:02 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Hull
7. Harvey
8. Richard
9. Bourque
10. Shore
This would be my list too. Except I have Lidstrom ahead of Shore and Lemieux ahead of Orr

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Lemieux
4. Orr
5. Beliveau
6. Hull
7. Harvey
8. Richard
9. Bourque
10. Lidstrom

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Old
10-29-2012, 08:24 PM
  #80
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1. Bobby Orr
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Gordie Howe
4. Wayne Gretzky
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Howie Morenz
8. Doug Harvey
9. Denis Potvin
10.Guy Lafleur

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
Bobby Orr was better than Gretzky, of this I have zero doubt. I would never deny the fact that Gretzky is king for offensive hockey - no question and no argument. But when you consider that Gretzky also personally witnessed more goals while on the ice than any other skater during his career, and that he was a negative +/- six out of his last seven seasons, some of the career "advantage" begins to be tarnished (at least for those without the Gretzky colored glasses). Orr redefined his position and the game. He dominated his positional peers to a far greater degree than Gretzky ever did. No other defenseman has ever sniffed an Art Ross, nor could Gretzky ever dream of winning a Norris.
The top of the list of the players with the most goals against while on the ice is filled with hall of famers, even Bourque is at no.3, so I guess it's not really a big argument, it's just that these players were good so they were on the ice all the time.

And about Orr's defensive game, what about these plays...

Here at 1:55


And here at 7:12

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Old
10-30-2012, 09:10 AM
  #82
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Yes, I know that story about Howe. That doesn't really make a difference, because in general Howe was healthy and feared tough SOB. So everyone thought twice before they tried to do something to him.

As for Gretzky. How many games he missed due to health issues? Especially in his prime years. Really not comparable with Mario, who was pretty much forced to quit because of his bad back.



How about the fact that Howe was elite twice as long as Orr? Is that a weak argument?
Being in the hurricane zone here in Connecticut, I was cutoff last night while responding to this. My response was brilliant and really could not be argued. But, alas, it never made it to post.

I will say this argument for Howe is not weak at all. It is a very good point.

It shows that Howe had a better career than Orr.

But it doesn't make him a better player than Orr.


Last edited by Dennis Bonvie: 10-30-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 09:26 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Here is an analogy that I always like. Gretzky was by far the best player in the game in his prime. By far. Orr was the best player in the game during his time as well by a noticeable margin. The second best players respectively from that era were Trottier/Bossy (pick one) and Phil Esposito from Orr's era. Was the gap bigger between Orr and Esposito than Gretzky and Bossy? I don't think it was. I think the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the pack was larger than anyone else in NHL history. Plus he did it for a long time and no one challenged him until Mario arrived. Gretzky also did not play his last significant game/season at 28 years old. Orr did. Gretzky accomplished a ton after the age of 28 (post 1989). For reasons like this I can never see how anyone puts Orr ahead of him.

Gretzky's rookie season was 1979-80. Mario's 1984-85.

Gretzky was 27 when Mario won his first scoring title. So in Gretzky's prime, Mario was challenging him.

Anyway, its not much of an argument because you are basing who was better on other players and you picked a guy that played on Orr's team to compare him to.

Gretzky's accomplishment after age 28?

3 scoring titles, one Cup final appearence, -61 in regular season.

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Old
10-30-2012, 10:03 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Being in the hurricane zone here in Connecticut, I was cutoff last night while responding to this. My response was brilliant and really could not be argued. But, alas, it never made it post.

I will say this argument for Howe is not weak at all. It is a very good point.

It shows that Howe had a better career than Orr.

But it doesn't make him a better player than Orr.
I hope you are okay over there.

That's a good point obviously. But in my opinion when two players are so close in "pure" talent and being above peers, then something like a career length has to separate them.

Lets suppose Crosby never has a healthy season and he is forced to hang them up. While Malkin continues to play at his current level until he is 35-36 years old. Wouldn't you rank Malkin above Crosby on such all-time lists?

To explain further, I think that Crosby is a slightly better player, but Malkin already has a bit more accomplishments in his career. All this is arguable and I don't wish to discuss fairness of my opinion regarding Crosby and Malkin.

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Old
10-30-2012, 10:08 AM
  #85
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1. Howe
2. Orr
3. Gretzky
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Bourque
8. Morenz
9. Hasek
10. Lidström

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Old
10-30-2012, 11:30 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
1. Howe
2. Orr
3. Gretzky
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Bourque
8. Morenz
9. Hasek
10. Lidström
I don't see the argument of Hasek and Lidstrom above Jagr. Most will agree that those 3 were the most successful European born and trained NHL'ers of all all time. Hasek had a great peak, Lidstrom had great longevity but Jagr had both.

In my eyes Jagr is vastly underrated on here. Winning 5 Art Ross trophies (4 in a row) is so difficult to accomplish especially when you compare it to players of today's NHL.
Since 2001 when Jagr won his last Art Ross trophy, there has been only one multiple Art Ross winner and that's Malkin (2x). He was a Hart finalist 6 times and finished 4th two more times (compated to Hasek who was a finalist 4 times while Lidstrom never finished in the top 3). He has 3 Pearsons which is more than Hasek.

He has 15 straight 30+ goal seasons (tied for the NHL record). He has 15 straight 70+ Pts seasons (NHL record). He has single season individual records for points and assists by a winger and European born player with 149 and 87 both accomplished in 1995-96.

He's the last player to win an Art Ross by a 20 Pts margin or more(1998-99).

He's the only player in the top 10 all-time points list that never played a single season in the 80's or before (even Sakic played one season in the 80's). He battled injuries himself but proved to be quite durable in the long run.

When it's all said and done, he might very well be in the top 5 in points and goals and will most likely have 700 + goals and 1000 + assists. He was a prolific, dominant and consistent scorer.

Lost in all this is also his playoff success that has recently been reviewed to the point where some are now arguing that the 2nd Penguins Cup was a result of Jagr being the second most important player after Lemieux in that run. He was a clutch player both in the regular season and playoffs in his career.

His top 10 scoring finishes and his Hart trophy shared stats are among the top 10 all-time up there with Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau and Hull. There are far more arguments for having Jagr in the top 10 than there against him being in the top 10.


Last edited by livewell68: 10-30-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 12:00 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Gretzky's accomplishment after age 28?

3 scoring titles, one Cup final appearence, -61 in regular season.
3 Art Rosses, 5 all-star selections at the toughest position, over 1000 points in just 700 games, 108 points in 77 playoff games including one of the all-time great playoff performances, single handedly made the Kings relevant and successful... he'd be a first-ballot HOFer and all-time great on his post-prime years alone.


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Old
10-30-2012, 12:01 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I don't see the argument of Hasek and Lidstrom above Jagr.

Most will agree that those 3 were the most successful European born and trained NHL'ers of all all time.

Hasek had a great peak, Lidstrom had great longevity but Jagr had both.

In my eyes Jagr is vastly underrated on here.
I understand the argument for Hasek, since Hasek had such a great peak/prime at such an important position. What really helped Hasek and hurt Jagr was the decline in scoring league-wide. It made Hasek's numbers look even more spectacular and Jagr's much less so. If Jagr had been putting up 150 point seasons, Jagr probably has a couple more Harts. I think the argument for Lidstrom boils down to team success and trophy counting, thanks to the Wings superior organization and questionable competition for the Norris (Pronger often hurt, stars from the 80s winding down). Put Lidstrom on Jagr's '97-'08 teams... not even sure how many times they make the playoffs. If he had 3-4 Harts ('98, '00, '06), then that would help his case in some people's eyes. Still, it's hard to deny his 6 Hart nominations (and in '96 set the all-time season record for points by wing, and outscored every player by 19 points at even strength, yet not even nominated!) and 3 Pearsons.

Jagr is still underrated here IMO, although less than he was before the '05 lockout. I think it mainly comes down to him not having that Cinderella year where he was the best in the regular season and then led his team to a Cup. The Pens organization imploded and he really hasn't had a team capable of contending after '96. The much lower scoring era, when run and gun teams no longer Cups (unlike during the peak years of Gretzky/Lemieux), and increased competition at forward didn't help either. Add in a couple of disappointing years in his early 30s with the Caps (out of a 25+ year pro career) and there is just enough smoke for the haters to yell "fire." While no one questions the greatness of Hull and Bourque, despite their relative lack of team success, it's somehow supposed to be a blemish that Jagr couldn't lead quite mediocre teams to the promised land. The fact that just leading them to the playoffs often left him injured and drained, and that he still has a great track record of making the playoffs, winning playoff series, 2 Cups, international success, etc, is mostly ignored by those who wish to deny his greatness.

If the consensus third best forward since expansion (the other two being consensus top 4 GOAT), who

- was essentially Lemieux at even strength (with durability/longevity to boot)
- near the top of all the adjusted offensive stats, whether peak, prime or career, as well as adjusted plus-minus
- probably soon to have the most playoff points of any non-Oiler (despite 3 years in KHL and at least one lost lockout season)

is not a top 10 skater, then it may be a really long time (I mean decades) until we see another forward deserving of such honor.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 10-30-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 12:04 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I don't see the argument of Hasek and Lidstrom above Jagr. Most will agree that those 3 were the most successful European born and trained NHL'ers of all all time. Hasek had a great peak, Lidstrom had great longevity but Jagr had both.

In my eyes Jagr is vastly underrated on here. Winning 5 Art Ross trophies (4 in a row) is so difficult to accomplish especially when you compare it to players of today's NHL.
Since 2001 when Jagr won his last Art Ross trophy, there has been only one multiple Art Ross winner and that's Malkin (2x). He was a Hart finalist 6 times and finished 4th two more times (compated to Hasek who was a finalist 4 times while Lidstrom never finished in the top 3). He has 3 Pearsons which is more than Hasek.

He has 15 straight 30+ goal seasons (tied for the NHL record). He has 15 straight 70+ Pts seasons (NHL record). He has single season individual records for points and assists by a winger and European born player with 149 and 87 both accomplished in 1995-96.

He's the last player to win an Art Ross by a 20 Pts margin or more(1998-99).

He's the only player in the top 10 all-time points list that never played a single season in the 80's or before (even Sakic played one season in the 80's). He battled injuries himself but proved to be quite durable in the long run.

When it's all said and done, he might very well be in the top 5 in points and goals and will most likely have 700 + goals and 1000 + assists. He was a prolific, dominant and consistent scorer.

Lost in all this is also his playoff success that has recently been reviewed to the point where some are now arguing that the 2nd Penguins Cup was a result of Jagr being the second most important player after Lemieux in that run. He was a clutch player both in the regular season and playoffs in his career.

His top 10 scoring finishes and his Hart trophy shared stats are among the top 10 all-time up there with Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau and Hull. There are far more arguments for having Jagr in the top 10 than there against him being in the top 10.
Good points. I consider Jagr as the best\second best european born and trained player ever. Depending on my mood. Sometimes i rank Hasek at number one sometimes Jagr. Hasek had higher peak but shorter career. But i always rank them above Lidstrom.

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Old
10-30-2012, 12:11 PM
  #90
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In my eyes Jagr is vastly underrated on here. Winning 5 Art Ross trophies (4 in a row) is so difficult to accomplish especially when you compare it to players of today's NHL.
First of all, I can't decide who out of those 3 was actually better. Comparing 3 different positions is not making any decisions easier.

You could EASILY make a case for all of them and sound very reasonable and convincing.

Jagr has 5 Rosses and you wrote about the uniqueness of it. Lidstrom has 7 Norris trophies. Including 3 in a row (twice!). You have to go all the way back to Bobby Orr to find a player who won at least 3 Norris trophies in row.
Hasek has 2 Harts. No other goalie can say this.

All three have very unique accomplishments and it's damn difficult to compare them.

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10-30-2012, 12:26 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
First of all, I can't decide who out of those 3 was actually better. Comparing 3 different positions is not making any decisions easier.

You could EASILY make a case for all of them and sound very reasonable and convincing.

Jagr has 5 Rosses and you wrote about the uniqueness of it. Lidstrom has 7 Norris trophies. Including 3 in a row (twice!). You have to go all the way back to Bobby Orr to find a player who won at least 3 Norris trophies in row.
Hasek has 2 Harts. No other goalie can say this.

All three have very unique accomplishments and it's damn difficult to compare them.
Except you have to compare their accomplishments and put them into perspective in regards to their peers. Lidstrom won 4 of those 7 Norris trophies in possibly the weakest Norris trophy competition of all-time. Pronger, Chara and Niedermayer were his most direct competitors and all 3 have a hard time making the list of the top 20 best defensemen of all-time. Hasek won 6 Vezinas and 2 Hart trophies (once beating Lemieux and once beating Jagr) but he had the "Dead Puck Era" on his side with this very same "Dead Puck Era" playing against Jagr.cHasek's direct competitors were Roy, Brodeur, Cujo, Belfour.... Sure Brodeur and Roy are top 5-10 goalies but outside of those 2, the rest of the pack were very good to great goalies but borderline top 20 material. You can make an argument for Belfour and maybe Cujo but then guys like Kolzig, Cechmanek, Dafoe don't quite make the cut.

Jagr on the other hand outscored Sakic (top 10 center and top 25 forward) on numerous occasions. He beat out the likes of Forsberg (when healthy a top 5 force in the NHL), Lindros (the best power forward in the league when healthy), Bure, Selanne, Karyia. Sure those players had their fair share of injuries but so did Jagr. It takes talent, luck and health to be as successful as Jagr was and it's not his fault that these things worked out for him compared to the other stars of the 90's. The fact of the matter is, Jagr scored at a dominant rate in an era where scorers were stifled.

Quote:
With 32 goals and 39 assists in 39 games through Sunday, Jagr was close to a 150-point pace and was leading the league in both categories, something not achieved outright since Wayne Gretzky did it 13 years ago. Night after night Jagr finds not only open ice but also the inherent joy of his sport. He dances and dazzles, getting seven points against the hapless New York Islanders in one game, derailing the powerful Detroit Red Wings with a goal and an assist in the next, and, in the match after that, twisting New Jersey Devils checker Claude Lemieux into a pretzel by putting the puck through Lemieux's legs at the Penguins' blue line and creating a three-on-two. Jagr, with sturdy haunches that make him all but impossible to bump off the puck, puts on That '80s Show for almost 82 games a season. He's setting hockey back more than 10 years.

"The game in the 1980s was played with the puck," Toronto Maple Leafs goalie Glenn Healy says. "In the '90s it became a game of often willingly losing possession, of dumping the puck in and moving the battle to other areas, such as behind the net and in the corners. Jagr is an '80s player because he holds on to the puck and tries to make plays. He won't give it up until there is absolutely no other play, which isn't often, because he has the ability to make something out of nothing, even a one-on-three. As a goalie you're always aware of Jagr's presence on the ice."

Jagr's scoring rampage in an era of constipated hockey has ended debate about who is the NHL's best player. "With no disrespect to the other guys," says New Jersey defenseman Ken Daneyko, a 15-year veteran, "you've got [Eric] Lindros, [Paul] Kariya, [Teemu] Selanne and [Peter] Forsberg here, and Jagr head and shoulders above them, up there." That assessment was implicitly endorsed by Gretzky last April when he blessed Jagr with a private word during the Great One's retirement ceremony. "Maybe that's why I play good right now," Jagr said last week, his face crinkling in merriment as he sat at his locker. "I don't want to make Wayne a liar
From http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...8165/index.htm

BTW this stretch of hockey Jagr enjoyed in 1999 for the first 39 games, exceeds Crosby's 41 game stretch in 2010-11.

He was no Lemieux or Gretzky but he came the closest to dominating his peers the way they did since.


Last edited by livewell68: 10-30-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 12:38 PM
  #92
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top 10 is so unfair
ill just go with my favorites ok?

fedorov
modano
lemieux
jagr
selanne
yzerman
gretzky duh!
eric desjardins!
theo fleury!
konstantinov!

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Old
10-30-2012, 12:45 PM
  #93
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Jagr on the other hand outscored Sakic (top 10 center and top 25 forward) on numerous occasion. He beat out the likes of Forsberg (when healthy a top 5 force in the NHL), Lindros (the best power forward in the league when healthy), Bure, Selanne, Karyia. Sure those players had their fair share of injuries but so did Jagr. The fact of the matter is, Jagr scored at a dominant rate in an era where scorers were stifled.
Yes, I understand. Jagr was beating great Eric Lindros and Peter Forsberg. While Lidstrom faced some mediocre players like Pronger and Niedermayer. And Hasek... being head and shoulders above Roy and Brodeur during his best years is nothing. Roy and Brodeur were not that great to begin with.

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10-30-2012, 12:48 PM
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Yes, I understand. Jagr was beating great Eric Lindros and Peter Forsberg. While Lidstrom faced some mediocre players like Pronger and Niedermayer. And Hasek... being head and shoulders above Roy and Brodeur during his best years is nothing. Roy and Brodeur were not that great to begin with.
Where did I say Roy and Brodeur were nothing? Did you not see me describe them as top 5-10 all-time goalies?

Relatively speaking, Forsberg and Lindros were far more dominant (when healthy) than Chara, Pronger and Niedermayer ever were. So yes Jagr did dominate his peers to a larger extent than Lidstrom did to his.

In perspective, Jagr and Lidstrom both had dominant seasons that happened to be in the same season and that was 2005-06. Tell me who was more dominant that season compared to his peers, Jagr or Lidstrom?

The only reason there is this argument of Lidstrom being on the same level as Jagr is because of Jagr's 2 and a half average Washington seasons (1 of which still saw him finish 5th in scoring despite missing 13 games).

Even a half-assed Jagr put up 30 + goals and 70 + Pts in Washington.


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10-30-2012, 12:56 PM
  #95
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Except you have to compare their accomplishments and put them into perspective in regards to their peers. Lidstrom won 4 of those 7 Norris trophies in possibly the weakest Norris trophy competition of all-time. Pronger, Chara and Niedermayer were his most direct competitors and all 3 have a hard time making the list of the top 20 best defensemen of all-time. Hasek won 6 Vezinas and 2 Hart trophies (once beating Lemieux and once beating Jagr) but he had the "Dead Puck Era" on his side with this very same "Dead Puck Era" playing against Jagr.cHasek's direct competitors were Roy, Brodeur, Cujo, Belfour.... Sure Brodeur and Roy are top 5-10 goalies but outside of those 2, the rest of the pack were very good to great goalies but borderline top 20 material. You can make an argument for Belfour and maybe Cujo but then guys like Kolzig, Cechmanek, Dafoe don't quite make the cut.

Jagr on the other hand outscored Sakic (top 10 center and top 25 forward) on numerous occasions. He beat out the likes of Forsberg (when healthy a top 5 force in the NHL), Lindros (the best power forward in the league when healthy), Bure, Selanne, Karyia. Sure those players had their fair share of injuries but so did Jagr. It takes talent, luck and health to be as successful as Jagr was and it's not his fault that these things worked out for him compared to the other stars of the 90's. The fact of the matter is, Jagr scored at a dominant rate in an era where scorers were stifled.
The strongest competition for the Norris ever was in the late 80s and early 90s, and for some reason people exaggerate how weak Lidstrom's competition was, just because it followed the strongest peak ever. In no way is Lidstrom's competition weaker than the late 60s/early 70s (yes, Bobby Orr faced weaker competition than Lidstrom, though he definitely dominated it) or the early 80s.

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Originally Posted by Gabbychuk View Post
Gretzky is just a freak.

10 Art Ross trophies (Most ever)
6 Playoff scoring titles(Most Ever)
9 Hart trophies (Most Ever)
Gordie Howe ties Gretzky for most playoff scoring titles.

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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I don't see the argument of Hasek and Lidstrom above Jagr. Most will agree that those 3 were the most successful European born and trained NHL'ers of all all time. Hasek had a great peak, Lidstrom had great longevity but Jagr had both.

In my eyes Jagr is vastly underrated on here. Winning 5 Art Ross trophies (4 in a row) is so difficult to accomplish especially when you compare it to players of today's NHL.
Since 2001 when Jagr won his last Art Ross trophy, there has been only one multiple Art Ross winner and that's Malkin (2x). He was a Hart finalist 6 times and finished 4th two more times (compated to Hasek who was a finalist 4 times while Lidstrom never finished in the top 3). He has 3 Pearsons which is more than Hasek.

He has 15 straight 30+ goal seasons (tied for the NHL record). He has 15 straight 70+ Pts seasons (NHL record). He has single season individual records for points and assists by a winger and European born player with 149 and 87 both accomplished in 1995-96.

He's the last player to win an Art Ross by a 20 Pts margin or more(1998-99).

He's the only player in the top 10 all-time points list that never played a single season in the 80's or before (even Sakic played one season in the 80's). He battled injuries himself but proved to be quite durable in the long run.

When it's all said and done, he might very well be in the top 5 in points and goals and will most likely have 700 + goals and 1000 + assists. He was a prolific, dominant and consistent scorer.

Lost in all this is also his playoff success that has recently been reviewed to the point where some are now arguing that the 2nd Penguins Cup was a result of Jagr being the second most important player after Lemieux in that run. He was a clutch player both in the regular season and playoffs in his career.

His top 10 scoring finishes and his Hart trophy shared stats are among the top 10 all-time up there with Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau and Hull. There are far more arguments for having Jagr in the top 10 than there against him being in the top 10.
Jagr played for a long time at a solid level, but not necessarily at an elite level. Take a look at their postseason All-Star Teams:

Hasek
6X 1st Team All Star (1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001)

Lidstrom
10 X 1st Team All Star (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011)
2 X 2nd Team All Star (2009, 2010)

Jagr
7 X 1st Team All Star (1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006)
1 X 2nd Team All Star (1997)

Jagr's longevity as an elite player is closer to Hasek than to Lidstrom.

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post

If the consensus third best forward since expansion (the other two being consensus top 4 GOAT), who

.
Jagr has a case for being the best forward since expansion other than Gretzky and Lemieux, but in no way is it a consensus. There are definitely people who would pick Messier and/or Lafleur over Jagr.

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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
I hope you are okay over there.

That's a good point obviously. But in my opinion when two players are so close in "pure" talent and being above peers, then something like a career length has to separate them.

Lets suppose Crosby never has a healthy season and he is forced to hang them up. While Malkin continues to play at his current level until he is 35-36 years old. Wouldn't you rank Malkin above Crosby on such all-time lists?

To explain further, I think that Crosby is a slightly better player, but Malkin already has a bit more accomplishments in his career. All this is arguable and I don't wish to discuss fairness of my opinion regarding Crosby and Malkin.
I used to think that way, but I've since decided that Orr and Gretzky were even farther above their peers than Howe.


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10-30-2012, 12:59 PM
  #96
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Where did I say Roy and Brodeur were nothing? Did you not see me describe them as top 5-10 all-time goalies?

Relatively speaking, Forsberg and Lindros were far more dominant (when healthy) than Chara, Pronger and Niedermayer ever were. So yes Jagr did dominate his peers to a larger extent than Lidstrom did to his.

In perspective, Jagr and Lidstrom both had dominant seasons that happened to be in the same season and that was 2005-06. Tell me who was more dominant that season compared to his peers, Jagr or Lidstrom?
I would take Chris Pronger at his best (his Hart year or several playoff runs) over Lindros or Forsberg any day and twice on Sunday. Niedermayer at his best was also a pretty damn good player, so don't underestimate Nieds at his peak.

And I won't even bother to look into 2006. It's just one random season among twenty that both Lidstrom and Jagr played. It has very little significance if we wish to compare these two. So I won't bother.


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10-30-2012, 01:03 PM
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I would take Chris Pronger at his best (his Hart year or several playoff runs) over Lindros or Forsberg any day and twice on Sunday. Niedermayer at his best was also a pretty damn good player, so don't underestimate Nieds at his peak.

And I won't even bother to look into 2006. It's just one random season among twenty that both Lidstrom and Jagr played. It has very little significance if we wish to compare these two. So I won't bother.
Forsberg's 2002-03 season says hello.

Chris Pronger's Hart season BTW was a rip-off and most will agree with me on this one. He played on a stacked team including a defenseman who was his equal in MacInnis while Jagr missed 19 games, still won the Art Ross and despite his missed games finished 1 Pt shy of Pronger for the Hart.

Some don't even think Pronger was that much better than Lidstrom for instance that season. (1999-00). Pronger winning the Hart that year was more a result of circumstances ( the talk that whole year was how no defenseman had won the Hart since Orr) and Jagr missing significant time gave the writers a reason to vote for Pronger.

If you seriously think Pronger was more dominant at his very best than Lindros and Forsberg were at their very best then I don't know what to tell you.

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10-30-2012, 01:10 PM
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Except you have to compare their accomplishments and put them into perspective in regards to their peers. Lidstrom won 4 of those 7 Norris trophies in possibly the weakest Norris trophy competition of all-time. Pronger, Chara and Niedermayer were his most direct competitors and all 3 have a hard time making the list of the top 20 best defensemen of all-time. Hasek won 6 Vezinas and 2 Hart trophies (once beating Lemieux and once beating Jagr) but he had the "Dead Puck Era" on his side with this very same "Dead Puck Era" playing against Jagr.cHasek's direct competitors were Roy, Brodeur, Cujo, Belfour.... Sure Brodeur and Roy are top 5-10 goalies but outside of those 2, the rest of the pack were very good to great goalies but borderline top 20 material. You can make an argument for Belfour and maybe Cujo but then guys like Kolzig, Cechmanek, Dafoe don't quite make the cut.

Jagr on the other hand outscored Sakic (top 10 center and top 25 forward) on numerous occasions. He beat out the likes of Forsberg (when healthy a top 5 force in the NHL), Lindros (the best power forward in the league when healthy), Bure, Selanne, Karyia. Sure those players had their fair share of injuries but so did Jagr. It takes talent, luck and health to be as successful as Jagr was and it's not his fault that these things worked out for him compared to the other stars of the 90's. The fact of the matter is, Jagr scored at a dominant rate in an era where scorers were stifled.
Hasek had some tough competition, especially towards the top. The depth at goalie has improved further since then, but that's mostly the bottom half of starters and the backups. Hasek's extended prime and career in the NHL were much shorter. I don't see him having an advantage in playoffs & international play either. He only played in the second round 5 times, twice with stacked Detroit teams. Aside from the '98 Olympics, he didn't have much success internationally. Remember, goalie is a position which most presume has the ability to impact games more than a skater who plays 1/3-1/2 of the game and is battling 5 opponents for possession and territory. It's also a protected position, meaning no physical contact.

Meanwhile, Jagr has the much more extensive NHL career. He was scoring big goals at age 19 & 20 when the Pens won a couple Cups, was a star by the end of his second season (playoffs and following season), and was still perhaps the most dangerous forward in the playoffs (leading the playoffs in points/ppg after second round) when he left for the KHL at age 36. That's a long time to be an impact player in the NHL. He also helped his team to the playoffs in 16/18 NHL seasons so far, playing 11 times in the second round (including 7 times after Lemieux's first retirement and 5 times on very mediocre teams without Lemieux). While Hasek missed some playoff rounds and Olympics with injuries, Jagr led the Czechs (with Hasek and Elias both injured) to a medal in '06 Olympics (despite a vicious hit), a gold in best on best WC (with a broken finger and a puck to the head), another WC gold (with no-names vs. a loaded Russian team), and has continually been a strong force and leader for the Czechs internationally. He also came back from injury in numerous playoffs, even when he knew he wouldn't be very effective (an exception being when he led upset of Devils in games 6 & 7 in '99). The Czech Golden Hockey Stick for best Czech player in the world has been awarded to Hasek 5 times and Jagr 10 times.

Hasek had a great peak and has a good argument, but I give the edge to Jagr, whose peak wasn't much, if any, lower than Hasek's, (given his Hart, 6 Hart nominations, 3 Pearsons, 5 Rosses, 7 top 2 scoring finishes, 11 top 10 scoring finishes, and 7 first team AS). There is much less uncertainty about Jagr's dominance over a much longer span in the NHL, as well as his much more extensive and consistent excellence in the playoffs and internationally.

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10-30-2012, 01:19 PM
  #99
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Bobby Orr was better than Gretzky, of this I have zero doubt. I would never deny the fact that Gretzky is king for offensive hockey - no question and no argument. But when you consider that Gretzky also personally witnessed more goals while on the ice than any other skater during his career, and that he was a negative +/- six out of his last seven seasons, some of the career "advantage" begins to be tarnished (at least for those without the Gretzky colored glasses). Orr redefined his position and the game. He dominated his positional peers to a far greater degree than Gretzky ever did. No other defenseman has ever sniffed an Art Ross, nor could Gretzky ever dream of winning a Norris.

Ten years may not be the longest career - but no one was ever better for their peak - heck, when Orr retired, he was #1 ppg all-time,not to mention his defensive and physical play. Bobby Orr, # 1, and everyone else is still playing for second place.
Measuring Gretzky by +/- is rather silly. You are trying to show he is overrated with a neg ratio over his last eight seasons but ignoring that he has the best +/- of any forward ever. So:
1. If +/- is not important this is a meaningless statement.
2. If it is somehow a measurement of defensive ability then we must conclude he is the greateest defensive forward ever. His good +/- at the start of his career doesnt prove anything, in reality. And neither do the bad seasonat the end of his career.

As for giving up so many points while on the ice, this is a combination of highscorjng era on a team ghat didn't play much defense and playing on the first unit pk most his career. According to your method, Gretzky would have been better defensively if he hadnt killed penalties.

It just seems to me like you are trying to have it both ways - you want to diminish his accomplishments due to era but hold high scoring against him in that same era.

Ps wrote this on a phone so forgive my spelling.

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10-30-2012, 01:28 PM
  #100
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Jagr has a case for being the best forward since expansion other than Gretzky and Lemieux, but in no way is it a consensus. There are definitely people who would pick Messier and/or Lafleur over Jagr.
I might take Clarke, and I think Trottier isn't far behind.

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