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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:48 PM
  #226
ReginKarlssonLehner
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
Nah hes been beastly for 3 consecutive playoff years aswell as the olympics. Guy just plays his best in high pressure situations



The fact that the Kings shot 6.2% with Doughty on the ice whereas the Sens shot 9.5% with Karlsson on the ice sure helps that 42 point difference though.*

Doughty ran really really really really bad to crush advanced stats all season long like he did and only score 30 points. Not his fault goalies were godmoding the Kings all year long.

If you swap the on ice shooting %'s for them, shock, Doughty would have outscored Karlsson.

In before people think shooting % that far below the average is a result of lack of skill and not luck


*not to mention the hilariously large difference in PDO between both. Doughty having a stupidly low PDO of 986 and Karlsson having a high 1013
Lol, you don't get it do you.

Karlsson IS the reason we are scoring and shooting so much. He makes **** happen.

He was on the ice for most goals scored for more than any player in the league, what else do you need to know, smfh. With that statistic alone it should be clear why he's the best defence man in the league. He was on the ice for most goals scored for by ANY PLAYER. Ahead of Rocket Richard Malkin and the such. Therefore he has the most positive impact, therefore THE MOST VALUABLE. Scoring goals= winning games. Or is it not?

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10-30-2012, 12:11 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Lol, you don't get it do you.

Karlsson IS the reason we are scoring and shooting so much. He makes **** happen.

He was on the ice for most goals scored for more than any player in the league, what else do you need to know, smfh. With that statistic alone it should be clear why he's the best defence man in the league. He was on the ice for most goals scored for by ANY PLAYER. Ahead of Rocket Richard Malkin and the such. Therefore he has the most positive impact, therefore THE MOST VALUABLE. Scoring goals= winning games. Or is it not?
If you read a post i made not long after, i elaborated by saying that I expect that to happen with Karlsson because he is such an offensive talent and was using the data to show why Doughty only scored 30 points instead of being mid 40's and why there was a such a large gap between the two point totals, not to take anything away from Karlsson

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10-30-2012, 12:17 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
If you read a post i made not long after, i elaborated by saying that I expect that to happen with Karlsson because he is such an offensive talent and was using the data to show why Doughty only scored 30 points instead of being mid 40's and why there was a such a large gap between the two point totals, not to take anything away from Karlsson
maybe ottawa has a better shooting percentage because Karlsson gives better chances to his teamates.

lol

Karlsson was twice theplayer dought was in the reg season. not even close

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Old
10-30-2012, 12:29 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
maybe ottawa has a better shooting percentage because Karlsson gives better chances to his teamates.

lol

Karlsson was twice theplayer dought was in the reg season. not even close
If you go back and watch every goal/assist from Karlsson's season (there is a youtube of this) you'll see he provides a lot of open cages to score on and tons of set ups that come out of no where that surprise goalies.

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10-30-2012, 12:42 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
maybe ottawa has a better shooting percentage because Karlsson gives better chances to his teamates.

lol

Karlsson was twice theplayer dought was in the reg season. not even close
are you not reading what you are quoting? I very clearly write, in basic english, that i expect Karlsson's team to have a high shooting percentage when he is on the ice because he is so good offensively

Why is that now 3 Sens fans that have felt the need to argue that Karlsson is zomgawesome against someone saying that Karlsson is awesome?

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10-30-2012, 12:44 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
are you not reading what you are quoting? I very clearly write, in basic english, that i expect Karlsson's team to have a high shooting percentage when he is on the ice because he is so good offensively

Why is that now 3 Sens fans that have felt the need to argue that Karlsson is zomgawesome against someone saying that Karlsson is awesome?
Because he is zomgawesome instead of just awesome.

Duh.

That said I did realize he was misreading your point.

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10-30-2012, 02:59 PM
  #232
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We all acknowledge how great offensively Karlsson is. Doughty brings one, maybe two, more dimensions to the game than Karlsson does. He isn't just an average physical player, as of late, he has become a physical force because of his skating and aggressiveness. Karlsson is not a physical force.

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10-30-2012, 03:11 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
We all acknowledge how great offensively Karlsson is. Doughty brings one, maybe two, more dimensions to the game than Karlsson does. He isn't just an average physical player, as of late, he has become a physical force because of his skating and aggressiveness. Karlsson is not a physical force.
Quote:
‘With all due respect to the defensive defencemen, everybody can be a shutdown player. It ain’t hard. If they’re going to pay you $5 million to get no points and just take care of your zone, guys will do it.

“The real talent is the guy who can get up the ice and make the pass. Every team wants a guy like that, but they won’t let him play like that. Blows my mind. Karlsson has the long stick and he’s smart. He’s slight, but guys like him are built for speed, man.”
Paul Coffey

Please don't talk to me about hitting like it holds a candle to being the guy who's responsibility is running the puck where ever it goes. No ones at Karlsson's level at this and it changes his entire teams dynamic whenever he's on the ice. You're grasping at straws and I bet you don't even realize it. We know Chris Neil as a great hitter in Ottawa; nice player, but not near the value of the players that are tasked with carrying the puck.

People always say it's a DEFENSEmen well maybe it's been too long since Coffey and Orr because for the first time in decades we've got a guy who's an offensemen and there's ultimately nothing wrong about it.

No one was on the ice for more GF than Karlsson last year. And it's only obvious to us every night that the reason for that is because he's on the ice. You're chances of cashing in on secondary assists is great when you're on the ice that much for goals, but it's only significant if you're actually the reason. I mean, he must have the puck among the top 5 in the league surely...how else do you tally the giveaway + takeaway number he did last year. Sure, lots of giveaways; common among top players...but unusual for that player to surpass it in takeaways.


Last edited by Minister of Offence: 10-30-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 03:13 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Paul Coffey

Please don't talk to me about hitting like it holds a candle to being the guy who's responsibility is running the puck where ever it goes. No ones at Karlsson's level at this and it changes his entire teams dynamic whenever he's on the ice.

People always say it's a DEFENSEmen well maybe it's been too long since Coffey and Orr because for the first time in decades we've got a guy who's an offensemen and there's ultimately nothing wrong about it.
Well if you are rating a player's overall impact on a game, you have to give credit to players that are capable of making plays that aren't just scoring plays. Karlsson isn't that much better than Doughty to make up the difference. He's a great defenseman, top-3 in the league, but he's no Paul Coffey.

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10-30-2012, 03:14 PM
  #235
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That's just a horrible argument in general. In the modern NHL, players and teams who focus on scoring do not win Stanley cups (except guys like Pat Kane who are given tons of room because he is not the most important player on his team). I'm not going to call it selfish, but this ain't the 80's anymore.

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10-30-2012, 03:20 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Well if you are rating a player's overall impact on a game, you have to give credit to players that are capable of making plays that aren't just scoring plays. Karlsson isn't that much better than Doughty to make up the difference. He's a great defenseman, top-3 in the league, but he's no Paul Coffey.
You're talking about the player that led defensemen in takeaways by a clear margin. No one impacts the game more consistently then the player that carries the puck the most.

If Karlsson plays like that his whole career the difference between him and Coffey would be the difference in scoring between era and how many team and individual awards they win. And not playing with Lemieux and Gretzky.

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10-30-2012, 03:21 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
That's just a horrible argument in general. In the modern NHL, players and teams who focus on scoring do not win Stanley cups (except guys like Pat Kane who are given tons of room because he is not the most important player on his team). I'm not going to call it selfish, but this ain't the 80's anymore.
So you're saying individual hitting is a valuable commodity even remotely close to being a player that carries the puck the most.

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10-30-2012, 03:22 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
So you're saying individual hitting is a valuable commodity even remotely close to being a player that carries the puck the most.
It's a moot point because Doughty is also the most important offensive defenseman on the Kings and is primarly responsible for carrying the puck and the powerplay. While also being a top physical defenseman. So there's that...

Are sens fans forgetting Doughty's sophomore season? He had a Norris nomination and 59 points...

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10-30-2012, 03:24 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
You're talking about the player that led defensemen in takeaways by a clear margin. No one impacts the game more consistently then the player that carries the puck the most.

If Karlsson plays like that his whole career the difference between him and Coffey would be the difference in scoring between era and how many team and individual awards they win. And not playing with Lemieux and Gretzky.
These are both fairly weak points. Takeaways are one of those stats like hits that magically gets recorded differently in different arenas. So you an throw that one out. And Karlsson is going to have to have another season at that level to be spoken of in the same breath as Coffey.

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10-30-2012, 03:31 PM
  #240
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To bring an answer to this problem, let's have an opinion from one of the best defensive team in the league: The Rangers.

They will tell you what they think of Karlsson.

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10-30-2012, 03:45 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
These are both fairly weak points. Takeaways are one of those stats like hits that magically gets recorded differently in different arenas. So you an throw that one out. And Karlsson is going to have to have another season at that level to be spoken of in the same breath as Coffey.
He ran away in the takeaway department. Again, anybody who watches Karlsson would see that his takeaways are legit. He uses his stick to play defense rather than his body. Just because he doesn't play the traditional style of defense doesn't mean that he's not good defensively. Nobody is 'throwing it out' and I doubt the PHWA did, either.

Remember when the excuse for him being poor defensively was his -30 rating? Sens fans said that was more of a team stat than an individual stat because he wasn't even the worse defenseman on his team in terms of +/-. But nope, that was the reason. It was brought up every thread. Funny, I don't see those people mentioning his +16 last season. Hmmm....

Coffey and Orr have both spoken out highly about Karlsson. Personally, I'll take their opinions, along with the PHWA, over random HF posters who claim that their favourite defenseman is better.

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10-30-2012, 03:46 PM
  #242
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Very close all around.

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10-30-2012, 03:48 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
He ran away in the takeaway department. Again, anybody who watches Karlsson would see that his takeaways are legit. He uses his stick to play defense rather than his body. Just because he doesn't play the traditional style of defense doesn't mean that he's not good defensively. Nobody is 'throwing it out' and I doubt the PHWA did, either.

Remember when the excuse for him being poor defensively was his -30 rating? Sens fans said that was more of a team stat than an individual stat because he wasn't even the worse defenseman on his team in terms of +/-. But nope, that was the reason. It was brought up every thread. Funny, I don't see those people mentioning his +16 last season. Hmmm....

Coffey and Orr have both spoken out highly about Karlsson. Personally, I'll take their opinions, along with the PHWA, over random HF posters who claim that their favourite defenseman is better.
Yeah you are using quotes from other hockey players to defend yourself. That is where your argument has gone.

Let's get back to the discussion here.

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10-30-2012, 03:50 PM
  #244
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another poster said it best - it is a matter of taste. As they stand right now, Doughty and Karlsson are basically on equal footing, and Pietrangelo is maybe a little lower than them right now.

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10-30-2012, 04:11 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Yeah you are using quotes from other hockey players to defend yourself. That is where your argument has gone.

Let's get back to the discussion here.
Seriously? Yeah, I'm using quotes by all-time greats in Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey to support my argument that Karlsson is the best defenseman right now. Why wouldn't I? Their opinion means a lot more than mine or yours.

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10-30-2012, 04:16 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
Seriously? Yeah, I'm using quotes by all-time greats in Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey to support my argument that Karlsson is the best defenseman right now. Why wouldn't I? Their opinion means a lot more than mine or yours.
Bobby Orr is a very nice guy, I bet he'd say literally any other defenseman was the greatest in the game. Come on man, I like to think I am better than this level of argument, and I hope that you are too.

Sens fans seem to have this inability to process that this has just been a single season. What if Karlsson scores 45 points next year? Is it likely to happen? No. But is it possible? What is Spezza is injured?

I will go out and say this, based on variance alone it is very unlikely that Karlsson wins the Norris again.

But Sens fans keep believing that you have Paul freaking Coffey on your team. That should console the first round exits I suppose.

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10-30-2012, 04:18 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
Seriously? Yeah, I'm using quotes by all-time greats in Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey to support my argument that Karlsson is the best defenseman right now. Why wouldn't I? Their opinion means a lot more than mine or yours.
Actually I am still blown away by the fact that you are using quotes from other hockey players as evidence for anything. So when, I don't know, Gretzky said that Crosby could be better than him, did you really believe that too? If I wanted to waste my time I bet I could find a thousand absolutely ludicrous quotes that sports players say to be political.

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10-30-2012, 04:24 PM
  #248
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Karlsson is not the surefire HOFamer people on these boards tend to think he is after one high scoring / so-so defense year.

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10-30-2012, 04:26 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
What if Karlsson scores 45 points next year? Is it likely to happen? No. But is it possible? What is Spezza is injured?
Even in his sophomore season when Ottawa was a disaster he was on pace for 50 points and dramatically improved into his third season. He's weird, everything that made you mad about Karlsson (his reluctance to play D) suddenly disappeared last season.

He makes these dramatic improvements in his games, 1st year > undersized but potential, 2nd year > bad team but All Stars appearance, 3rd year > helps carry his team and gets Norris.

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10-30-2012, 04:29 PM
  #250
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Karlsson is not the surefire HOFamer people on these boards tend to think he is after one high scoring / so-so defense year.
No, but he was a 21 year old defenseman who scored 78 points in 81 games in era that is getting more and more difficult to score in. That is something to behold for sure.

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