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Number 1 defenceman to Edmonton

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Old
10-30-2012, 03:30 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Oilers are going to develop Schultz and Klefbom into their eventual top pairing. If they can get a veteran d-man to fill that role temporarily for a few years without breaking the bank they may look into that, but I don't see them being too desperate.

They have a potentially great core and they know it. They're not going to blow it up without letting the kids gel together first.
Completely agree, but in a thread that says "#1 D to the Oilers" of course one of the big four would have to be involved. I would think a better way to go would be to run a defense by committee, especially since your better defensemen will be extremely young. Rather then acquire "the guy" just look for a guy (top 4 veteran imo) and let the kids develop. Although to write in Schultz-Klefbom as the top pairing on a "potentially great core" is a little optimistic no? I think it's best to let the 4 kids play and see who the most expendable is before even entertaining trade proposals that will obviously require someone of that value.

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10-30-2012, 03:32 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Well, lets try and compare them to the Blackhawks, a team that was also accussed of tanking to accumultae draft picks.

The Hawks had three high, top five picks in a short span, one of which was a bust (Barker) and two who were pretty good. Now, the Oilers have had the first pick in the draft three years in a row. Three forwards when the Oilers most pressing need is on defense. Now, did they over rate Yak to the extent of taking depth instead of need? In my opinion, yes, but thats my opinion. Best availible player doesnt work when you could have traded down a couple spots and took a player who would also grow with the core already in place, the same core that is already young and has no problem scoring goals.

Now the Hawks pretty much said when Tallon messed up right after the lock out with failure free agent signings, that they were gonna be bad for a couple years, and traded away every player he had and accumilated a horrendous amount of draft picks and developed players such as Duncan Keith, who were already in the system and created so much depth in terms of prospects that it became a strength. I dont see the Oilers doing this. I see them being happy that they have picked first in the draft for three straight years and thats it. And even then, outside of drafting first overall, they have had some questionable picks outside of stealing Eberle in 2007, when they could have taken Subban when they had three first round picks, and 2009 when there was a bevy of defensive talent who would look good instead of MPS. I, as a casual observer, are not in no way impressed by any draft pick the Oilers have made outside of their three year run as the worst team in the league, but again, thats just me. I also think a couple of those picks, Hall especially, are questionable because Hall is injury prone and Seguin might be a better player in the long run.

Long story short, you draft balance over anything in the NHL in this day of a salary cap if you actually want to put out a competitive team. The Oilers have what looks like alot of mistakes and I wonder if they need a Dale Tallon type to do in there and right the ship with a tweak or two when the obvious is actually seen by somebody who doesnt have his heart on his Oilers shirt sleeve. But in my opinion, this team is closer to picking first for a fourth straight year then making the playoffs, and the only person to blame for that is the GM.
As they say hindsight is 20-20. But it can also be misguided.

No one is going to argue that the Oilers drafting and development under Prendergast was anything but attrocious. But this is a completely different system in place right now. Moreover comparing the Hawks and the recent Oilers and suggesting that this is evidence that the Oilers have screwed up is misguided. The circumstances were very different and it is far too early in the Oiler's rebuild to know how it will play out. It took the Hawks 8 years to build their team that won the cup. The Oilers rebuild started in basically the day that they drafted Hall so we are a little more than two years in.

Right now Hall is the face of the franchise, and is a terrific young player with the heart of a lion. This injury prone stuff is completly over blown, He had a couple of fluke injuries and has now had a shoulder injury from juniors repaired. He plays hard and that takes a toll on your body. Teows for example has had two concussions and missed a sugnificant amopunt of time in hs first year with a broken finger and a sprained knee. Yet he has still managed to lead his team to a Cup and was a key playe on Canada's Gold Medal Team. Moreover right now Hall is likely 100% going forwrad and has himself said that his shoulder is much stringer tha it has been in years.

I still firmly believe that Hall was the right guy to pick. He will probably be the next Oiler captain.

RNH was the clear pick for the Oilers. THe kid is a tremendous tallent and is in a position that is certainly key.

One could certainly debate the need for a defensemen in last years draft. But it was also clear that Yakupov was the clear concensous #1 pick. Still there were lots of reports that the Oilers were going to go with Murray but finally decided on Yakupov in part becuase they thought they had a very good shot at Schultz and that drafting Yakupov would make this even more likely. Had they picked at #2 they would have taken Murray if Yakupov was gone. At #3-4 probably Reinhart. BUt Yakupov was the right choice in my mind.

The Oilers are also very high on some of their own defensive prospects. You don't seem to think anyone else in the system amounts to much but Klefbom is a couple of months older than Murray and out played Murray at last years WJHC. He then took off from there, and this year had a terrific start in the SEL before being hurt. Some non-Oiler scouts told one of Edmonton's local media guys that they would take Klefbom over Murray given the choice.

The Oilers also have Martin Marincin and David Musil. Right now Marincin looks great as a rookie in the AHL. He is playing on the top pairing with Schultz and has at least two of the games been the better player in the piar despite Schultz's incredible start. Musil is a rock with a very good shot at becoming an NHL'er.

In addition to these guys they have some very talented project dmen. Gernat is terrific offensively and his absence while injured has really been noticed on the Oil Kings. Joey Laleggia, is another interesting prospect. He is small (5' !0" 180lbs) but very talented. He was thrid last year in scoring amongst NCAA defensemen with 11 goals and 38 points in 43 games as a freshman, was the WCHA Rookie of the Year and is second amongst defencemen this year with three goals and 6 points in 4 games. He is an excellent skater and has great hockey sense. He is obviously a lomg shot but could be a real sleeper.

Add in Teubert, Peckham, Fedun and even a guy like Bradon Davidson or Dillan Simpson and it is not like they have simply ignored the backend. In fact they drafted 11 defensemen in a three year span.

In the NHL right now they have Smid and Petry who are both still on their RFA years. They also have N. Schultz who is a very uderrated dman and a guy who did a lot to stabilize the defense after coming from Minnesota. They also have Whitney, who is a real wild card.

So right now going forward the Oilers core looks to be RNH(19), Hall (21), Eberle (22), J. Schultz (22) and Yakupov (18). You can probably add to this Smid (26), Petry (24) and Klefbom (19). That is a very young and talented group.

In goal Dubnyk is a question mark, but he is still very young by netminder standards. Statistically he also had a pretty decent year last year. The team also has Roy(21) who is playing very well in OKC and who may very well be the Baron's starter by season's end as well as Tyler Bunz (20) who also has potential.

In addition to the defense prospects thay have Paajarvi, Pitlick, Lander, Hartikainen, and Rieder all of whom have a very good shot at long NHL careers. An of course this does not include Gagner, who I actually believe will be traded in the next two years.

So two and a half years frrom the start of the rebuild it is not like the cupboard is bare. On top of this the Oilers have a cap structure that would allow them to keep this group together and still add core pieces going forward. None of this guarantees future success but it seems silly to write them off.


Last edited by Fourier: 10-30-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 03:41 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
Essentially, what you are telling me is that Seguin is the better player. Landeskogg is the better pro, and we made the wrong choice in picking Yak.

Listen dude, you've got to STOP TROLLING!!!! Your intentions are so obvious. Do you mind telling me why so much hatred towards one team? If you would have given the Oilers credit for making the right decision just 1 of the 3 times, I may have believed that you were sincere in your opinion. However, it is abundantly clear that your intention is to downplay the talent that the Oilers have amassed. Give them a couple of years, and they will be one of the top 4 teams in the league.

Are you sure you have no hidden agenda...I'm sure you want nothing but to see the Oilers succeed.

Envy, Envy, ENVY!!!
You need to settle down

All of those claims (although together seems like a reach) are actually reasonable assumptions. I too believe that seguin is/will be the better player than Hall. An argument could be made for Landeskog over RNH (I would still take RNH, but it depends how much people value two way play i guess) and I dont think he was trying to say Murray was better than Yakupov, but rather that trading down and getting more assets would be been better for the Oilers and i tend to agree.

Nothing would make me happier than to see Edmonton fail because I despise the tanking to succeed strategy, but at least they have done well in keeping their young kids and making good picks. Other than Seguin over Hall (which is still debatable), they have been excellent managing their prospects and making good picks and therefore should not trade any of the "big 4" right now.

This thread wont go anywhere because a #1 D is worth one of the big 4 and Edmonton fans wont give one up (which is completely understandable).

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10-30-2012, 03:49 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Add in Teubert, Peckham, Fedun and even a guy like Bradon Davidson or Dillan Simpson and it is not like they have simply ignored the backend. In fact they drafted 11 defensemen in a three year span.

In the NHL right now they have Smid and Petry who are both still on their RFA years. They also have N. Schultz who is a very uderrated dman and a guy who did a lot to stabilize the defense after coming from Minnesota. They also have Whitney, who is a real wild card.

So right now going forward the Oilers core looks to be RNH(19), Hall (21), Eberle (22), J. Schultz (22) and Yakupov (18). You can probably add to this Smid (26), Petry (24) and Klefbom (19). That is a very young and talented group.

In goal Dubnyk is a question mark, but he is still very young by netminder standards. Statistically he also had a pretty decent year last year. The team also has Roy(21) who is playing very well in OKC and who may very well be the Baron's starter by season's end as well as Tyler Bunz (20) who also has potential.

Ina ddition to the defnes prospects thay have Paajarvi, Pitlick, Lander, Hartikainen, and Rieder all of whom have a very good shot at long NHL careers. An of course this does not include Gagner, who I actually believe will be traded in the next two years.

So two and a half years frrom the start of the rebuild it is not like the cupboard is bare. On top of this the Oilers have a cap structure that would allow them to keep this group together and still add core pieces going forward. None of this guarantees future success but it seems silly to write them off.
If any of the bolded becomes more than a #6/7 defenseman, I will eat my hat.

Personally, I think the Oilers best bet would be to move Eberle right now in exchange for someone like John Carlson. Eberle is bound to regress, and he'll never have higher value than he does right now. Yakupov will be much better than Eberle and take the spot as #1RW, and the Oilers are deep on RW with Hemsky anyway.

I know Oilers fans are going to scream bloody murder because Eberle is best friends with Hall and signed a steal of a contract extension and is super clutch and everything, but trading him for a young stud #1 defenseman would be the best move right now, and very good asset management to boot.

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10-30-2012, 03:53 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Traded down and got more assets and still a decent pick?

Debateable. Seguin has already passed him, imo, and plays a premium forward position. If he was taken instead, the Oilers could have taken Landeskog and the dynamic of the Oilers is changed for the better, imo, of course.

Possibly, but I will wager Landeskog is a better pro.

Which means they could have returned a huge bevy of talent for him.

I dont think thats the case. I think many just want the Oilers to return to what they used to be instead of being the leagues laughing stock. How could anybody say they are envious or jealous of a team that has picked first overall three straight times? And even then, the fabled top end talent on the Oilers needs to develop further to actually be something to be jealous of?

Jealous of the potential? Nah. Every team in the league has players with potential. The Oilers players need to play up to that potential and so far they havent done anything but prove they can beat the tar out of the Blackhawks during the regular season when the Hawks are pretty much sleep walking thru the 60 minutes.

The Oilers need a number one defenseman. And sadly if they want to be competitive, need to over pay to get one and when they do, I will bet Oiler fans will not like the end result of what they give up for one from what is actually out there. Karlsson surely isnt, and I guestion if Bogo is either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
You need to settle down

All of those claims (although together seems like a reach) are actually reasonable assumptions. I too believe that seguin is/will be the better player than Hall. An argument could be made for Landeskog over RNH (I would still take RNH, but it depends how much people value two way play i guess) and I dont think he was trying to say Murray was better than Yakupov, but rather that trading down and getting more assets would be been better for the Oilers and i tend to agree.

Nothing would make me happier than to see Edmonton fail because I despise the tanking to succeed strategy, but at least they have done well in keeping their young kids and making good picks. Other than Seguin over Hall (which is still debatable), they have been excellent managing their prospects and making good picks and therefore should not trade any of the "big 4" right now.

This thread wont go anywhere because a #1 D is worth one of the big 4 and Edmonton fans wont give one up (which is completely understandable).
You mean, you want to make yourself believe that Seguin will be a better player, when clearly Hall is the more complete player, averages a higher PPG scoring, is more of the team player, is extremely competitive, is a winner, and the future captain of the Oilers. And you will choose Seguin, who evidently, doesn't have the best attitude, is not known to be a team player, has a lower PPG average, and was a collosal failure in the playoffs last year, playing in the 1st line C role.

NO thanks...give me Hall any day of the week. Watch him play regularly, and you'll see why this guy is the heart and soul of our team.

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10-30-2012, 03:59 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
If any of the bolded becomes more than a #6/7 defenseman, I will eat my hat.
Personally, I think the Oilers best bet would be to move Eberle right now in exchange for someone like John Carlson. Eberle is bound to regress, and he'll never have higher value than he does right now. Yakupov will be much better than Eberle and take the spot as #1RW, and the Oilers are deep on RW with Hemsky anyway.

I know Oilers fans are going to scream bloody murder because Eberle is best friends with Hall and signed a steal of a contract extension and is super clutch and everything, but trading him for a young stud #1 defenseman would be the best move right now, and very good asset management to boot.
There is a good reason why they will not be more than a 6/7 pairing...we will be too stacked with players like Schultz, Petry, Klef, Smid, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Whitney, Schultz...etc.

Our pressing need is not a D right now. I'm more concerned about getting a 2nd line C with some size and grit.

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10-30-2012, 04:05 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
You mean, you want to make yourself believe that Seguin will be a better player, when clearly Hall is the more complete player, averages a higher PPG scoring, is more of the team player, is extremely competitive, is a winner, and the future captain of the Oilers. And you will choose Seguin, who evidently, doesn't have the best attitude, is not known to be a team player, has a lower PPG average, and was a collosal failure in the playoffs last year, playing in the 1st line C role.

NO thanks...give me Hall any day of the week. Watch him play regularly, and you'll see why this guy is the heart and soul of our team.
He was a second line winger and he did a lot more in the playoffs than Hall. This year and last....Hall is a more complete player? Seguin will be the better defensive player (and probably already is). You earn power play minutes on the Bruins by playing 3 zone hockey.

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10-30-2012, 04:05 PM
  #83
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Hall is the more complete player vs. Seguin? News to me.

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10-30-2012, 04:15 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
If any of the bolded becomes more than a #6/7 defenseman, I will eat my hat.

Personally, I think the Oilers best bet would be to move Eberle right now in exchange for someone like John Carlson. Eberle is bound to regress, and he'll never have higher value than he does right now. Yakupov will be much better than Eberle and take the spot as #1RW, and the Oilers are deep on RW with Hemsky anyway.

I know Oilers fans are going to scream bloody murder because Eberle is best friends with Hall and signed a steal of a contract extension and is super clutch and everything, but trading him for a young stud #1 defenseman would be the best move right now, and very good asset management to boot.
As far as the bolded guys I agree with you. That was not the point. The Oilers have thrown a lot of darts at the boards as far as dmen are concerned. Though in fact what the team really needs is for one of those guys to become a solid #6/7 and the pick will be a success. The real test will be what Schultz, Marincin, Musil and Klefbom become.

If one of the big four had to go taoday, I'd trade Eberle. But I don't see the urgency.

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10-30-2012, 04:16 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
There is a good reason why they will not be more than a 6/7 pairing...we will be too stacked with players like Schultz, Petry, Klef, Smid, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Whitney, Schultz...etc.

Our pressing need is not a D right now. I'm more concerned about getting a 2nd line C with some size and grit.
You know that's not what I meant. I mean none of those players will ever be more than journeymen. That's like bragging about having the next Kent Huskins in your prospect pool.

And I don't think Schultz, Petry, Klefbom, Smid, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Whitney, and other Schultz qualifies as "stacked". OEL, Yandle, Gormley, Murphy, and Rundlbad is 'stacked'. Letang, Despres, Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Dumoulin is 'stacked'. Pietrangelo, Polak, Shattenkirk, Russell, and Cole is 'stacked'. McDonagh, Staal, Del Zotto, McIlrath, and Sauer is stacked.

J. Schultz could be a high-end #2 defenseman. But he's the only guy in that group with high-end potential. Klefbom has an outside chance of becoming a #2 defenseman, most likely a good second pairing guy. Smid is at best an average #3 defensive defensemen. Petry could be a low-end #2 if he keeps progressing well. But Marincin? Hopefully a #4 guy. Musil? Hasn't done anything of note since being drafted. Gernat? Hopefull not the next MAB. Whitney? Always injured, and only has a half a season's record as anything more than a 4-5 guy. Nick Schultz? Perpetually overrated by Oilers fans because they got absolutely fleeced in the Gilbert trade. He's barely an NHLer.

If the best you can hope for is a long-term top-4 of J. Schultz-Klefbom, Smid-Petry, that's not enough to be a contender when your goaltender is Devan Dubnyk. Not that Dubnyk is bad, just that he isn't a great goaltender like you need if your defense corps isn't elite.

I suspect you're tired of hearing this, because it pops holes in your bubble, but the thing that SC winners have in common is a stud #1 defenseman. Doughty, Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar (at the time), Pronger. Justin Schultz, while elite offensively and not bad defensively, is not even close to the caliber of any of those players besides maybe Gonchar. And the biggest problem of course is that by the time all of these defensemen are in their primes, your elite forwards will be off of their ELCs. $6M for Hall is a steal, but $6M for Eberle is bad and that means RNH will want more than that, and Yakupov will deserve more than that, and it's very hard to have the depth to win when you have four >$6M contracts in your forward corps. And the fact is, Horcoff is still on the books at $5.5M per for three more years. That's the entirety of Yakupov's ELC.

The Oilers need an elite #1 defenseman. I don't think Ryan Murray was the answer. But trading Eberle+ for one would be a huge step toward a Cup in my opinion.

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10-30-2012, 04:26 PM
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...

The Oilers are also very high on some of their own defensive prospects. You don't seem to think anyone else in the system amounts to much but Klefbom is a couple of months younger than Murray and out played Murray at last years WJHC.
...
Great post Fourier.

Just to nitpick though I believe you meant to say a few months older rather than younger. (Actually really surprising to me. I wasn't aware of how young Klefbom was in his draft year.)

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10-30-2012, 04:27 PM
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Great post Fourier.

Just to nitpick though I believe you meant to say a few months older rather than younger. (Actually really surprising to me. I wasn't aware of how young Klefbom was in his draft year.)
I did. And I will change it. Thanks.

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10-30-2012, 04:29 PM
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As far as the bolded guys I agree with you. That was not the point. The Oilers have thrown a lot of darts at the boards as far as dmen are concerned. Though in fact what the team really needs is for one of those guys to become a solid #6/7 and the pick will be a success. The real test will be what Schultz, Marincin, Musil and Klefbom become.

If one of the big four had to go taoday, I'd trade Eberle. But I don't see the urgency.
The urgency with trading Eberle is that you want to trade him while his value is high. While he had the benefit of good percentages and easy minutes and PP time.

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10-30-2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
You know that's not what I meant. I mean none of those players will ever be more than journeymen. That's like bragging about having the next Kent Huskins in your prospect pool.

And I don't think Schultz, Petry, Klefbom, Smid, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Whitney, and other Schultz qualifies as "stacked". OEL, Yandle, Gormley, Murphy, and Rundlbad is 'stacked'. Letang, Despres, Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Dumoulin is 'stacked'. Pietrangelo, Polak, Shattenkirk, Russell, and Cole is 'stacked'. McDonagh, Staal, Del Zotto, McIlrath, and Sauer is stacked.

J. Schultz could be a high-end #2 defenseman. But he's the only guy in that group with high-end potential. Klefbom has an outside chance of becoming a #2 defenseman, most likely a good second pairing guy. Smid is at best an average #3 defensive defensemen. Petry could be a low-end #2 if he keeps progressing well. But Marincin? Hopefully a #4 guy. Musil? Hasn't done anything of note since being drafted. Gernat? Hopefull not the next MAB. Whitney? Always injured, and only has a half a season's record as anything more than a 4-5 guy. Nick Schultz? Perpetually overrated by Oilers fans because they got absolutely fleeced in the Gilbert trade. He's barely an NHLer.

If the best you can hope for is a long-term top-4 of J. Schultz-Klefbom, Smid-Petry, that's not enough to be a contender when your goaltender is Devan Dubnyk. Not that Dubnyk is bad, just that he isn't a great goaltender like you need if your defense corps isn't elite.

I suspect you're tired of hearing this, because it pops holes in your bubble, but the thing that SC winners have in common is a stud #1 defenseman. Doughty, Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar (at the time), Pronger. Justin Schultz, while elite offensively and not bad defensively, is not even close to the caliber of any of those players besides maybe Gonchar. And the biggest problem of course is that by the time all of these defensemen are in their primes, your elite forwards will be off of their ELCs. $6M for Hall is a steal, but $6M for Eberle is bad and that means RNH will want more than that, and Yakupov will deserve more than that, and it's very hard to have the depth to win when you have four >$6M contracts in your forward corps. And the fact is, Horcoff is still on the books at $5.5M per for three more years. That's the entirety of Yakupov's ELC.


The Oilers need an elite #1 defenseman. I don't think Ryan Murray was the answer. But trading Eberle+ for one would be a huge step toward a Cup in my opinion.

......and that is where any respect I may have had for your post is gone.

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10-30-2012, 04:33 PM
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......and that is where any respect I may have had for your post is gone.
Your gripe is over Nick Schultz. Nick Schultz is a null offensive player whose defensive contributions were overrated due to high on-ice save percentage. He had a Corsi-on of nearly -17, and he looked lost. There's a reason Minnesota traded him.

But let me save you the trouble of responding:

- You don't watch the Oilers so you don't understand how wonderful they are.
- I've never watched our prospects play but I hear from biased Oilers fans that they're all the best players on their teams.
- We don't have salary issues we'll just buy-out Horcoff.
- We don't need a #1 defenseman to win the Cup.

That sound right? I remember two years ago when Oilers fans were convinced that Ryan Whitney was the answer to their #1D problems.

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10-30-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
You mean, you want to make yourself believe that Seguin will be a better player, when clearly Hall is the more complete player, averages a higher PPG scoring, is more of the team player, is extremely competitive, is a winner, and the future captain of the Oilers. And you will choose Seguin, who evidently, doesn't have the best attitude, is not known to be a team player, has a lower PPG average, and was a collosal failure in the playoffs last year, playing in the 1st line C role.

NO thanks...give me Hall any day of the week. Watch him play regularly, and you'll see why this guy is the heart and soul of our team.
What? If anything, it's pretty close. Seguin is good in all three zones and will be a continuous 30 goal scoring well rounded center for many years to come, he needs time to work on things like penalty killing and faceoffs and hasn't gotten that time because he's on a team with experienced players who are better at those aspects of the game. Seguin is being developed in a strict system where he isn't allowed as much liberty as the young Oilers squad. Hall has heart and is a "winner," well good for him. If you don't think the Oilers would, this coming year, be more balanced with RNH/Eberle on the first line then Seguin/Yak on the second line you're crazy. You don't need three superstars on each line, one good/great center, a good/great winger and someone to do the dirty work which is what balance is all about. Even putting up a lot of points doesn't necessarily dictate how well you control the game, if for every goal you score you take a bunch of shots which directly result in a one-and-done game you could be doing more harm in some instances which often results in weak team defense, which I think is the Oilers real problem.

That isn't to say the pick was wrong, you usually want to pick he who will have the most value. If I was the Oilers I would trade one of Hall/Eberle/Yak for a very good center if it was possible. As for a great defenseman, good luck, they're hard to find and usually kept with the team that put forth all the effort and **** games to develop them. With a more structured, defensive minded system, solid performances from dubnyk, and a bit more balance in the top 9 I think the team could be playoff bound. Judging from last year I would say the final four teams were the four most conservative teams (offensively) we've seen in a while and the league appeared to be trending that way, especially out west.

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10-30-2012, 04:36 PM
  #92
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You know that's not what I meant. I mean none of those players will ever be more than journeymen. That's like bragging about having the next Kent Huskins in your prospect pool.

And I don't think Schultz, Petry, Klefbom, Smid, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Whitney, and other Schultz qualifies as "stacked". OEL, Yandle, Gormley, Murphy, and Rundlbad is 'stacked'. Letang, Despres, Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Dumoulin is 'stacked'. Pietrangelo, Polak, Shattenkirk, Russell, and Cole is 'stacked'. McDonagh, Staal, Del Zotto, McIlrath, and Sauer is stacked.

J. Schultz could be a high-end #2 defenseman. But he's the only guy in that group with high-end potential. Klefbom has an outside chance of becoming a #2 defenseman, most likely a good second pairing guy. Smid is at best an average #3 defensive defensemen. Petry could be a low-end #2 if he keeps progressing well. But Marincin? Hopefully a #4 guy. Musil? Hasn't done anything of note since being drafted. Gernat? Hopefull not the next MAB. Whitney? Always injured, and only has a half a season's record as anything more than a 4-5 guy. Nick Schultz? Perpetually overrated by Oilers fans because they got absolutely fleeced in the Gilbert trade. He's barely an NHLer.

If the best you can hope for is a long-term top-4 of J. Schultz-Klefbom, Smid-Petry, that's not enough to be a contender when your goaltender is Devan Dubnyk. Not that Dubnyk is bad, just that he isn't a great goaltender like you need if your defense corps isn't elite.

I suspect you're tired of hearing this, because it pops holes in your bubble, but the thing that SC winners have in common is a stud #1 defenseman. Doughty, Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar (at the time), Pronger. Justin Schultz, while elite offensively and not bad defensively, is not even close to the caliber of any of those players besides maybe Gonchar. And the biggest problem of course is that by the time all of these defensemen are in their primes, your elite forwards will be off of their ELCs. $6M for Hall is a steal, but $6M for Eberle is bad and that means RNH will want more than that, and Yakupov will deserve more than that, and it's very hard to have the depth to win when you have four >$6M contracts in your forward corps. And the fact is, Horcoff is still on the books at $5.5M per for three more years. That's the entirety of Yakupov's ELC.

The Oilers need an elite #1 defenseman. I don't think Ryan Murray was the answer. But trading Eberle+ for one would be a huge step toward a Cup in my opinion.
YOu didn't just say Murphy and Runblad did you.
Runblad: as a 22 year old that has done nothing. In 24 games with Ottawa, he had 6pts and -11. He was -18 with Portland of the AHL. He is on the ice for more goals allowed than he is for pts scored.
Murphy on the other hand: This year in the OHL, 14gp 1+2= 3pts and is a -4. This is not a stacked D.

The other is Despres, Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Dumoulin. The only one that might crack the top 4 is Morrow and Harrington. I'd still take the Edmonton D over all these guys.

McIlrath and Sauer will not sniff the NHL. McIlrath perhaps as an 6/7 enforcer role, but nothing more than that.

You will have to do alot better than that.

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10-30-2012, 04:39 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
You know that's not what I meant. I mean none of those players will ever be more than journeymen. That's like bragging about having the next Kent Huskins in your prospect pool.

And I don't think Schultz, Petry, Klefbom, Smid, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Whitney, and other Schultz qualifies as "stacked". OEL, Yandle, Gormley, Murphy, and Rundlbad is 'stacked'. Letang, Despres, Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Dumoulin is 'stacked'. Pietrangelo, Polak, Shattenkirk, Russell, and Cole is 'stacked'. McDonagh, Staal, Del Zotto, McIlrath, and Sauer is stacked.

J. Schultz could be a high-end #2 defenseman. But he's the only guy in that group with high-end potential. Klefbom has an outside chance of becoming a #2 defenseman, most likely a good second pairing guy. Smid is at best an average #3 defensive defensemen. Petry could be a low-end #2 if he keeps progressing well. But Marincin? Hopefully a #4 guy. Musil? Hasn't done anything of note since being drafted. Gernat? Hopefull not the next MAB. Whitney? Always injured, and only has a half a season's record as anything more than a 4-5 guy. Nick Schultz? Perpetually overrated by Oilers fans because they got absolutely fleeced in the Gilbert trade. He's barely an NHLer.

If the best you can hope for is a long-term top-4 of J. Schultz-Klefbom, Smid-Petry, that's not enough to be a contender when your goaltender is Devan Dubnyk. Not that Dubnyk is bad, just that he isn't a great goaltender like you need if your defense corps isn't elite.

I suspect you're tired of hearing this, because it pops holes in your bubble, but the thing that SC winners have in common is a stud #1 defenseman. Doughty, Chara, Keith, Lidstrom, Gonchar (at the time), Pronger. Justin Schultz, while elite offensively and not bad defensively, is not even close to the caliber of any of those players besides maybe Gonchar. And the biggest problem of course is that by the time all of these defensemen are in their primes, your elite forwards will be off of their ELCs. $6M for Hall is a steal, but $6M for Eberle is bad and that means RNH will want more than that, and Yakupov will deserve more than that, and it's very hard to have the depth to win when you have four >$6M contracts in your forward corps. And the fact is, Horcoff is still on the books at $5.5M per for three more years. That's the entirety of Yakupov's ELC.

The Oilers need an elite #1 defenseman. I don't think Ryan Murray was the answer. But trading Eberle+ for one would be a huge step toward a Cup in my opinion.
Doughty, AP, OEL, Karlsson, guys like this are not on the block. They would not be traded for Eberle.

The truth is these kids are too young to make any definitive statements about how good they will be. Klefbom for example has just turned 19 and has made great strides of late. What was the upside for Keith, or Yandle or Letang at the same age.

I've been an Oiler fan since 1972. I have no problem being patient with this rebuild. This team is being built to stay together for a decade which is exactly how I would like to see it. There is still lots of time to round out the team once you know what you have and what you really need.

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10-30-2012, 04:43 PM
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No one is interested in trading their best puck moving defensemen. You gotta draft him or overpay on the UFA market

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10-30-2012, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
YOu didn't just say Murphy and Runblad did you.
Runblad: as a 22 year old that has done nothing. In 24 games with Ottawa, he had 6pts and -11. He was -18 with Portland of the AHL. He is on the ice for more goals allowed than he is for pts scored.
Murphy on the other hand: This year in the OHL, 14gp 1+2= 3pts and is a -4. This is not a stacked D.

The other is Despres, Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Dumoulin. The only one that might crack the top 4 is Morrow and Harrington. I'd still take the Edmonton D over all these guys.

McIlrath and Sauer will not sniff the NHL. McIlrath perhaps as an 6/7 enforcer role, but nothing more than that.

You will have to do alot better than that.
Rundblad is younger than Justin Schultz and has played in the NHL. Not a great argument for you. And Connor Murphy has had injury problems, not to mention the fact that he's not an offensive defenseman. Besides that, you're completely ignoring the fact that OEL is a million times better than anyone the Oilers have, and Yandle is what you hope Schultz becomes.

I'm so glad you have a crystal ball in regards to the Pens kids. Funny, because Despres is already playing in the Pens top-4. Pouliot and Maatta were literally just drafted, and Dumoulin was one of the best defensemen in college hockey. You are biased and you know absolutely nothing about anyone's prospects but your own.

Sauer was a legit #4 defenseman before he got his concussion, so you probably don't know squat about Rangers prospects either.

Et tu?

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10-30-2012, 04:47 PM
  #96
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Edler + 2nd for Hemsky, Klefbom, Paajarvi.

Probably an overpayment by the Oilers. Note, as a Canucks fan, I'm on the fence for this trade and it depends how much Edler is willing to sign for the Canucks.

Actually I think Vancouver's overpaying...I've had a long day.


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10-30-2012, 04:52 PM
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Edler + 2nd for Hemsky, Klefbom, Paajarvi.

Probably an overpayment by the Oilers. Note, as a Canucks fan, I'm on the fence for this trade and it depends how much Edler is willing to sign for the Canucks.
Oilers take the deal and run.

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10-30-2012, 04:54 PM
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Oilers take the deal and run.
Even if Edler isn't signed and he might go to free agency?

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10-30-2012, 04:55 PM
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Doughty, AP, OEL, Karlsson, guys like this are not on the block. They would not be traded for Eberle.
No, but a guy like John Carlson might be. He's the guy I'd target.

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The truth is these kids are too young to make any definitive statements about how good they will be. Klefbom for example has just turned 19 and has made great strides of late. What was the upside for Keith, or Yandle or Letang at the same age.
Keith Yandle had a 1.33 ppg in the Q to his name and a .5 ppg season in the AHL by the time he was 19, despite being a 4th round pick.

Kris Letang was at .7 ppg in the AHL by the time he was 20, and he was a 3rd round pick.

Duncan Keith was playing elite defense and at a .35 ppg in the AHL at age 19 despite being picked int he very late 2nd round.

You know what the problem is? You're comparing a guy chosen in the mid-first round with guys all chosen at 55 or later. Those guys shouldn't be expected to progress as quickly as Klefbom, but all 3 had breakout seasons directly after being drafted. So yeah, you can definitely get a handle on what kind of NHL player a guy is going to be if he's putting up elite numbers like that at age 19.

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I've been an Oiler fan since 1972. I have no problem being patient with this rebuild. This team is being built to stay together for a decade which is exactly how I would like to see it. There is still lots of time to round out the team once you know what you have and what you really need.
My question is to keeping together your young elite forwards while having enough depth to have a Cup-winning team. Chicago won it while Kane and Toews were still on their ELCs. Anaheim won it while Getzlaf and Perry were still on their ELCs. Do you honestly think that the Oilers can win it while RNH/Yakupov are on their ELCs? Because if not, considering the contract Eberle got, you're going to have to be very careful with your financials.

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10-30-2012, 04:57 PM
  #100
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Rundblad is younger than Justin Schultz and has played in the NHL. Not a great argument for you. And Connor Murphy has had injury problems, not to mention the fact that he's not an offensive defenseman. Besides that, you're completely ignoring the fact that OEL is a million times better than anyone the Oilers have, and Yandle is what you hope Schultz becomes.

I'm so glad you have a crystal ball in regards to the Pens kids. Funny, because Despres is already playing in the Pens top-4. Pouliot and Maatta were literally just drafted, and Dumoulin was one of the best defensemen in college hockey. You are biased and you know absolutely nothing about anyone's prospects but your own.

Sauer was a legit #4 defenseman before he got his concussion, so you probably don't know squat about Rangers prospects either.

Et tu?
It looks like you have the crystal ball.

It's hard to take you SERIOUSLY when you say things like OEL is a million times better than anyone that the Oilers have.

Please do not compare J. Schultz to Runblad. Runblad will be playing in the AHL when the NHL resumes, and Schultz will be racking up points in the NHL.

You also talk about Polak, as a 25year old, playing in 77 games, he had 0 goals and only 11 assists, was only a +7.

You've lost all credibility.

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