By Seguin/Halls current age, Doughty was already a Norris Finalist and had gone to the Olympics on an extremely stacked Canadian blueline, and ended up being one of their better D for the tournament.
Just saying, that IMO I think Doughty showed a lot more promise at their ages than theyve shown so far (not that they havent also shown a ton of promise, and both look like franchise guys).
Just my 2 cents.
And I should reiterate I do not think there's some sort of notable gap between these players (which is obvious seeing as they're so closely ranked). If I was in a room with 20 scouts and 19 of them were clamoring to put Doughty over Hall or Seguin in this imaginary draft, I wouldn't argue really. However for the purpose of my rankings, the way I leaned how I did was:
1. My projection of the two forwards based on their talent + production given context
2. The good probability I give of that projection being attainable and
3. The value I give that possible projection over what Doughty's value is and could even improve upon.
Obviously I'm still dealing with uncertainty, which is why I could completely see the Doughty argument because of his talent level and his impressive track record. As I said in the previous reply, this decision comes down to particular assumptions about the forwards' development and your perceived value of particular positions relative to production points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder
I'm all for unique viewpoints, and there are certainly plenty of those here. My rankings would look fairly different, but everyone has their opinion, and this article was a good read.
There is one ranking that I just cannot wrap my head around, though, and that's Tanev at 38.
For Tanev he was a player I have not seen a lot of recently, so I outsourced my opinions heavily of him to NHL sources who have scouted him, and the feedback was generally very positive. I see him topping out as a good #3, which would be obvious given my ranking of him. I see a player with well, well above-average hockey sense and good mobility with the potential to be a high-end defensive player despite the fact he won't likely be a solid offensive producer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelDuck
Corey, you really think Kadri is a better player right now than Luca Sbisa? Your entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one.
I've generally been a little underwhelmed by Sbisa in the NHL (although early in his prospect days I was a fan). He's obviously still young, has notably improved recently and has the talent to be a good player. I prefer Kadri because of his impressive talent level, and the fact I prefer the F position usually. The lack of NHL experience isn't a good thing, but he's been quality in the AHL and (weight issue aside) seems to be developing well from AHL scouts Ive talked to. With Sbisa too I know he got some increased responsibility towards the latter part of the year, but he was a player I unfortunately havent been able to get much recent information on which to my readers I understand places some uncertainty in my statements.
Just a horrible list filled with completely illogical statements. Does this guy even watch hockey?
Pretty much. It looks like names drawn out of a hat, especially when you get past the top 10 guys.
Even as a Canuck fan, the ranking of Tanev is hilarious. If Vancouver were offered a player like Gudbranson/Cowan/Colin Wilson for Tanev, they'd assume the opposition GM was joking. And I like Tanev a lot.
I've generally been a little underwhelmed by Sbisa in the NHL (although early in his prospect days I was a fan). He's obviously still young, has notably improved recently and has the talent to be a good player. I prefer Kadri because of his impressive talent level, and the fact I prefer the F position usually. The lack of NHL experience isn't a good thing, but he's been quality in the AHL and (weight issue aside) seems to be developing well from AHL scouts Ive talked to. With Sbisa too I know he got some increased responsibility towards the latter part of the year, but he was a player I unfortunately havent been able to get much recent information on which to my readers I understand places some uncertainty in my statements.
I've generally been a little underwhelmed by Sbisa in the NHL (although early in his prospect days I was a fan). He's obviously still young, has notably improved recently and has the talent to be a good player. I prefer Kadri because of his impressive talent level, and the fact I prefer the F position usually. The lack of NHL experience isn't a good thing, but he's been quality in the AHL and (weight issue aside) seems to be developing well from AHL scouts Ive talked to. With Sbisa too I know he got some increased responsibility towards the latter part of the year, but he was a player I unfortunately havent been able to get much recent information on which to my readers I understand places some uncertainty in my statements.
Sbisa looked like a completely different player in January - February (he came back down to Earth a little after a very good run) but he was playing very sheltered minutes alongside Visnovsky and he generally was playing with the Selanne line at even strength. It will be interesting to see how he handles tougher competition in the future but I've always thought his hockey IQ will hold him back from ever realizing his potential. He has a great toolset though, if he had Fowler's brain he would already be one of the better defensemen in the league.
Great list. Most HFers won't agree, because it seems they're too focused on current stats (see Hall vs Eberle on HF for proof).
Honestly, I think this Pronman did a great job. He's projecting these players going forward, rather than taking their current production and applying standard projection curves.
Great list. Most HFers won't agree, because it seems they're too focused on current stats (see Hall vs Eberle on HF for proof).
Honestly, I think this Pronman did a great job. He's projecting these players going forward, rather than taking their current production and applying standard projection curves.
Maybe that's because the list implies that this list is who is the top 50 right now?
For Tanev he was a player I have not seen a lot of recently, so I outsourced my opinions heavily of him to NHL sources who have scouted him, and the feedback was generally very positive. I see him topping out as a good #3, which would be obvious given my ranking of him. I see a player with well, well above-average hockey sense and good mobility with the potential to be a high-end defensive player despite the fact he won't likely be a solid offensive producer.
Fair enough, can't watch everyone. He does have good hockey sense and mobility, but not a whole lot else. Maybe I'm missing the boat, but I just find him fairly unremarkable, and I see him as more of a bottom pairing guy who can give you spot minutes higher up the lineup when injuries strike (like most bottom pairing dmen). I strongly prefer Cowen to Tanev, and have trouble seeing why you would rank Tanev 12 spots higher. I think Tanev mostly gets attention because he's playing in the spotlight in Vancouver, if he was playing for a team like Florida he'd be just another random AHL callup.
I am also a little surprised you left Sbisa off your list intentionally. He's another guy who I would personally have above Tanev. I don't think he's a future superstar or anything, but I see him maturing into a good 2nd pairing dman. He can really skate, he's got good size, he's reasonably physical, he moves the puck pretty well, and is pretty solid in his own end. Just a good, jack of all trades type dman, with very nice physical tools.
Again, I like the list, interesting to see different opinions, there's just a few areas where I disagree strongly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet
Maybe that's because the list implies that this list is who is the top 50 right now?
Reading the article I was definitely given the impression that he was talking about the future. I was pretty clearly a "prospect ranking" type article, except applied to young NHLers as opposed to true prospects.
Looking thru the list I saw 6(?) Americans and 5 were on the back end - the only forward was Derek Stepan . I have to ask...
What is with the drought of American scorers? It has been going on for a while now.
As a Canadian, it makes me happy but in all seriousness, you guys could produce two teams of top end American D-Men but up front the well is more than a bit dry.
looking over just the dmen in order, it kinda seems like corey completely forgot about cowen and then just slid him in at the end right before publishing.
Glad Scandella made this list, he was really good for the Wild last year and showed some great all around tools. He was quite raw but adjusted very well throughout the year to some tough matches. This time in the AHL could help his offense and then playing behind Suter gives him a chance to use his strong physical tools more often. Definitely a defenseman to watch in the future IMO.
Sbisa looked like a completely different player in January - February (he came back down to Earth a little after a very good run) but he was playing very sheltered minutes alongside Visnovsky and he generally was playing with the Selanne line at even strength. It will be interesting to see how he handles tougher competition in the future but I've always thought his hockey IQ will hold him back from ever realizing his potential. He has a great toolset though, if he had Fowler's brain he would already be one of the better defensemen in the league.
Right and again with Sbisa that January-onwards information is important. I could see someone using that information to make a perfectly legitimate case to be solidly in the top 50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder
Fair enough, can't watch everyone. He does have good hockey sense and mobility, but not a whole lot else. Maybe I'm missing the boat, but I just find him fairly unremarkable, and I see him as more of a bottom pairing guy who can give you spot minutes higher up the lineup when injuries strike (like most bottom pairing dmen). I strongly prefer Cowen to Tanev, and have trouble seeing why you would rank Tanev 12 spots higher. I think Tanev mostly gets attention because he's playing in the spotlight in Vancouver, if he was playing for a team like Florida he'd be just another random AHL callup.
Right and again with Tanev with limited personal knowledge of him, I rely on the NHL sources I've talked to. I relayed their sentiment about his tools through my write ups, and made my own projections based off that. I'd also say from like 37 onwards, the marginal gap between most of the players was very small to me. The projections in terms of ceiling in that range are basically indistinguishable to me for most of the players and it's just a matter of certainty in the projection. It comes down to assumptions and valuations of different variables and based on the information I used, I'm more confident in Tanev's projection than Cowen's, although I see their ceilings as comparable.
Quote:
Reading the article I was definitely given the impression that he was talking about the future. I was pretty clearly a "prospect ranking" type article, except applied to young NHLers as opposed to true prospects.
Right, I probably should have tried to be a little clearer in the introduction about that.
Looking thru the list I saw 6(?) Americans and 5 were on the back end - the only forward was Derek Stepan . I have to ask...
What is with the drought of American scorers? It has been going on for a while now.
As a Canadian, it makes me happy but in all seriousness, you guys could produce two teams of top end American D-Men but up front the well is more than a bit dry.
Because from the 2008 and 2009 drafts we didn't produce any good forwards.
Kane, Pacioretty and van Riemsdyk are all too old.
Colin Wilson is meh.
Chris Kreider doesn't have enough NHL games to make the list.
The remaining good forwards are all too young or not in the NHL, Bjugstad, Coyle, etc
As a Canucks fan I agree with Tanev being rated too favourably. As it stands he reminds of a guy like Gunnarsson; a good stabilizing presence with little else to offer. I'm hoping he can round out his game into a Kevin Klein type, but that would be a best case scenario I think.
It has tainted his vision. 
. I have to ask...
but in all seriousness, you guys could produce two teams of top end American D-Men but up front the well is more than a bit dry.
