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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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10-30-2012, 09:13 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Replacement players isn't meant to offer the fans a product to watch. It's to break a union, to see how many guys would cross the picket line to earn a pay check.


And for those that are saying they'd stick to the AHL, where do you think the players would come from?
How many AHL players do you think would cross that virtual picket line? Enough to stock a league?

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10-30-2012, 09:14 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Montecristo View Post
Do you think it is the players fault they get locked out every time the CBA expires? After the last lockout they and the owners agreed to a deal which installed a salary cap. Some would say that the players gave in on their stance and lost the battle with the owners for that deal. Now that this deal in which the players "lost" is over the owners would like to negotiate a new deal that makes the players lose again.

Yes, without the owners hockey players would not have the NHL. But without these players, the owners would not have any means to make money either. Their partnership should be equal. 50-50 split is a fair idea. But is it fair to roll back the salaries of the Players that these owners negotiated as little as 2 months ago? Moments after signing a contract being told that you won't be receiving as much as you thought and worked hard to be worth.

I hate that people think because players make millions that they should just be happy, shut up and play a game most play for free. These players should be looked at like any other labor force. If the CWA didn't exist communication workers wouldnt recieve half the benefits they do now. Without a PA, NHL players would be castrated by the owners. Remember when the owners first offered a 57-43% role reversal in the first proposal? That would be what players would be playing with at the most if owners had no pushback.

I hate the lockout, I know without a players union there wouldnt be a lockout because the owners could have there way with them. But if the owners were just a little less greedy and decided that they owe their franchises to the players who go out and risk their health and well being then there wouldn't be a lockout either. Maybe the owners should just shut up sit down and watch from their cushy press box as the players go out and make "slightly less" millions for them as they eat caviar and sip pinot
I actually have more sympathy for players in the NHLPA than people in other unions. Why? Because in few industries are you forced to join a union. In construction, teaching, etc. there are alternatives for those who don't want to join, there is not that option in the NHL. This is why the NHLPA and other sports unions are easier to break because their membership did not seek them out to join and there are serious repercussions if you choose not to. The players have to be part of the NHLPA whether they agree with them or not.

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10-30-2012, 10:04 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Just out of curiosity, how many people here would pay to go to games with replacement players?

Would you pay the same price?

How many would watch on TV?

I'd be completely out, even on TV.
Exactly.

LOL...replacement players. US viewers barely watch the best of the best....never mind 3rd tier never will be's.

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10-30-2012, 11:16 PM
  #279
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headaches and its all because of the NHL ******** we need to get in a room lock a door and battle it out for the fans we owe them.#honorNHL

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10-31-2012, 02:59 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
marc savard ‏@MSavvy91
headaches and its all because of the NHL ******** we need to get in a room lock a door and battle it out for the fans we owe them.#honorNHL
Savvy is the man. i wish they would listen to him.

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10-31-2012, 05:09 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Replacement players isn't meant to offer the fans a product to watch. It's to break a union, to see how many guys would cross the picket line to earn a pay check.


And for those that are saying they'd stick to the AHL, where do you think the players would come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
How many AHL players do you think would cross that virtual picket line? Enough to stock a league?

I don't think very many AHL players would cross the picket line tbh. (maybe once a significant amount of NHL guys did) I'm not sure what the rules are with contracts etc. Maybe some would come from leagues like the ECHL and lower and maybe undrafted college kids, EU leagues etc. I don't think it's something that would happen anyways so I'm not too worried about getting into the details of it.

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10-31-2012, 07:48 AM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Just out of curiosity, how many people here would pay to go to games with replacement players?

Would you pay the same price?

How many would watch on TV?

I'd be completely out, even on TV.
I would watch on TV but would not pay.

Hell I watched every game Dave Lewis coached for the Bruins could it be worse then that?

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10-31-2012, 07:59 AM
  #283
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I'd rather watch a weeks worth of Ellen re-runs than hockey involving anything other than true NHL players

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10-31-2012, 08:02 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
I'd rather watch a weeks worth of Ellen re-runs than hockey involving anything other than true NHL players
haha that bad huh?


I would watch because I don't feel enough games are televised that are not NHL level. I would get a chance to see some younger players or guys that are going to give 110% becasue they know that if they do well enough they might get a tryout in the NHL when it is back up and running.

I just miss hockey.

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10-31-2012, 08:05 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
I actually have more sympathy for players in the NHLPA than people in other unions. Why? Because in few industries are you forced to join a union. In construction, teaching, etc. there are alternatives for those who don't want to join, there is not that option in the NHL. This is why the NHLPA and other sports unions are easier to break because their membership did not seek them out to join and there are serious repercussions if you choose not to. The players have to be part of the NHLPA whether they agree with them or not.
Not every job is forced into a union. I know you had a similiar event happen but if a teacher doesn't wanna be in the teachers union.. go to teach a private school. If you're in construction its not all unionized.. trust me. I did masonry and it was non union. Its not fun and theres not benefits. But people who have benefits and rights in a union are bad people? or don't deserve sympathy over nhl players? I think its the opposite. I have less sympathy for any players union since they have a larger pool of money in their bank account. I'm only the players side on this cba because the owners aren't properly managing their own teams, and now the players have to have a salary rollback? doesn't seem logical to me, since we'll be right back here in 5-10 years whenever the new cba is decided.

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10-31-2012, 08:46 AM
  #286
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Mike Mottau on with T&R believes the deal gets done in November and games start late November or very early December.

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10-31-2012, 09:08 AM
  #287
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Mike Mottau on with T&R believes the deal gets done in November and games start late November or very early December.
I hope he is right... I look forward to your posts because they always give me that glimmer of hope.

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Old
10-31-2012, 09:25 AM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
Not every job is forced into a union. I know you had a similiar event happen but if a teacher doesn't wanna be in the teachers union.. go to teach a private school. If you're in construction its not all unionized.. trust me. I did masonry and it was non union. Its not fun and theres not benefits. But people who have benefits and rights in a union are bad people? or don't deserve sympathy over nhl players? I think its the opposite. I have less sympathy for any players union since they have a larger pool of money in their bank account. I'm only the players side on this cba because the owners aren't properly managing their own teams, and now the players have to have a salary rollback? doesn't seem logical to me, since we'll be right back here in 5-10 years whenever the new cba is decided.
Another falsehood. This lockout isn't happening because of mismanagement of certain NHL clubs.

I'm mostly on your side in being more sympathetic to the players this time about... But for entirely different reason.

It continues to amaze me how the topics being argued are so largely focused on fable in the face of fact.

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10-31-2012, 09:56 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
Another falsehood. This lockout isn't happening because of mismanagement of certain NHL clubs.

I'm mostly on your side in being more sympathetic to the players this time about... But for entirely different reason.

It continues to amaze me how the topics being argued are so largely focused on fable in the face of fact.
Seems unavoidable when the only communication you hear from the league or players is designed to reinforce the fables that best suit each side.

Further, when it's impossible to know for sure exactly where the financial pain points lie within each team, but trends like expansion of teams, growth of sponsorship, success of TV contracts, retaining of the league commissioner, etc. are out there for the world to see, it's tough to reconcile everything.

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10-31-2012, 10:09 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
Another falsehood. This lockout isn't happening because of mismanagement of certain NHL clubs.

I'm mostly on your side in being more sympathetic to the players this time about... But for entirely different reason.

It continues to amaze me how the topics being argued are so largely focused on fable in the face of fact.
What is it then? I know some markets are just not hockey friendly.. but some of whats happening is the mismanagement of their teams. It also has to deal with greed (thats on both sides) but thats been abundantly clear since the start of this whole negotiation.

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10-31-2012, 10:53 AM
  #291
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haha that bad huh?


I would watch because I don't feel enough games are televised that are not NHL level. I would get a chance to see some younger players or guys that are going to give 110% becasue they know that if they do well enough they might get a tryout in the NHL when it is back up and running.

I just miss hockey.
Me too

As a STH I don't want to pay that price to watch lower level players. I would like to watch (on TV) the P.Bruins

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10-31-2012, 10:55 AM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
marc savard ‏@MSavvy91
headaches and its all because of the NHL ******** we need to get in a room lock a door and battle it out for the fans we owe them.#honorNHL
I miss Savvy.

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10-31-2012, 11:02 AM
  #293
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Replacement Players

t may be inferior hockey to begin. But, as the teams rosters are supplemented by newly drafted players and overseas hires, eventully the quality on ice will improve.

It might be a bummer for a couple of seasons, but, given the hockey fandom around the two countries, it could succeed.

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10-31-2012, 12:06 PM
  #294
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What is it then? I know some markets are just not hockey friendly.. but some of whats happening is the mismanagement of their teams. It also has to deal with greed (thats on both sides) but thats been abundantly clear since the start of this whole negotiation.
I've mentioned this a few times, but it's a point that continues to be harped on...

The problem is NOT small-market teams. In fact there is ONE team that is really struggling and that's the Phoenix Coyotes.

Earlier in this thread, I wrote this:

The poster-team for this lockout is NOT the small market club that is losing money. It's the Pittsburgh Penguins. Annually successful team with the world's most explosive and entertaining talent leading the charge. And they (basically) broke even last year. The Pens and 22 other teams who golf for par season after season...


The issue is PROFIT. It doesn't seem to matter how well or how poor your team is run, or what kind of a market you're in. The overwhelming majority of teams are $10M on either side of breaking even. A cost reduction is required.

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10-31-2012, 01:06 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I've mentioned this a few times, but it's a point that continues to be harped on...

The problem is NOT small-market teams. In fact there is ONE team that is really struggling and that's the Phoenix Coyotes.

Earlier in this thread, I wrote this:

The poster-team for this lockout is NOT the small market club that is losing money. It's the Pittsburgh Penguins. Annually successful team with the world's most explosive and entertaining talent leading the charge. And they (basically) broke even last year. The Pens and 22 other teams who golf for par season after season...


The issue is PROFIT. It doesn't seem to matter how well or how poor your team is run, or what kind of a market you're in. The overwhelming majority of teams are $10M on either side of breaking even. A cost reduction is required.
according to the eagle tribune jeremy jacobs has profited over 200 million dollars in the last decade. Maybe the bruins are in the underwhelming minority that makes more then 10m per? I wonder where you get your figures from. are you including merchandising sales?

the article is a year old but regardless, call it 220 over the last 11. again, not a bad gig for an owner to rake in 20m on avg per year. in most cases owners do not rely on the profits of their team to sustain their living, most are successful in other fields before taking over a franchise. Plenty of baseball teams suffer financially, as do plenty of basketball teams. yet they don't miss games. there has to be more pride from owners about what they are representing, not what they are bringing home. Do you think george steinbrenner would have cared if he had to spend 10 million dollars to field a winning team? no, he cared more about the game then he did himself. the NHL needs more passion from their owners, not worried about profits but worried about product.

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10-31-2012, 01:13 PM
  #296
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Some notes on our lovable owner...

http://www.truehockey.com/articles/Now-What-01

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10-31-2012, 01:20 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I've mentioned this a few times, but it's a point that continues to be harped on...

The problem is NOT small-market teams. In fact there is ONE team that is really struggling and that's the Phoenix Coyotes.

Earlier in this thread, I wrote this:

The poster-team for this lockout is NOT the small market club that is losing money. It's the Pittsburgh Penguins. Annually successful team with the world's most explosive and entertaining talent leading the charge. And they (basically) broke even last year. The Pens and 22 other teams who golf for par season after season...


The issue is PROFIT. It doesn't seem to matter how well or how poor your team is run, or what kind of a market you're in. The overwhelming majority of teams are $10M on either side of breaking even. A cost reduction is required.
So they are struggling to make a profit.. ok. This is a business right? many people keep on saying professional sports are a business. If you can't make a profit than theres something wrong with management. Are there certain things that take away from their profit or different economic problems, absolutely. But the system that is presently being implemented is obviously not working. And that is on the owners, not the players.

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10-31-2012, 01:46 PM
  #298
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

S.Fehr and B.Daly talked extensively on the phone on Tues about a variety of issues. Hopefully it leads to meaningful negotiating.

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10-31-2012, 01:46 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
So they are struggling to make a profit.. ok. This is a business right? many people keep on saying professional sports are a business. If you can't make a profit than theres something wrong with management. Are there certain things that take away from their profit or different economic problems, absolutely. But the system that is presently being implemented is obviously not working. And that is on the owners, not the players.
and that is why the owners are the ones trying to fix it not the players.

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10-31-2012, 01:50 PM
  #300
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The commish has three groups of owners: the ones who want to play; the ones in the middle, including Tampa and Nashville, who want a better collective bargaining agreement but recognize not playing is worse; and the hardliners. It would be a mistake to underestimate the last group. There are several who would rather cancel the season than accept a bad deal because they are hemorrhaging money and need immediate satisfaction.

While the players believe Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs is calling the shots, an educated guess at the final group includes but may not be limited to Anaheim, Columbus, Florida, the Islanders, Phoenix, St. Louis, Washington and Dallas -- enough to block any agreement from getting done (It's tough to lock it down because owners are forbidden to discuss this stuff. Attempts to talk to a couple were politely shot down).

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...-refrains.html

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