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Old
10-31-2012, 11:03 PM
  #26
Jerky
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the problem is I don't want to put Galchenyuk on the wing, and I think he's too good to stay in junior next year (he can't play in Hamilton until he's 20)

I also don't want to lose Eller or Pleks (or put them on the wing)

Moving Desharnais to the wing would be the best option, but that would still break up that line.

The big problem is how much will Desharnais ask for next year as an RFA. He definitely deserves a raise from the $850k he's making, but if he's asking for Parenteau money, then I'd have to look elsewhere for help.

The max I'd give would be $2.75 million per on a 2 year deal. I guess the lockout is a good thing for us for negotiating, as he'll be getting a raise based on 1 year of stats. If we were playing now and he were to get 60 pts again, then we'd be in big trouble CAP wise next season, as he'd probably ask for $4 million+

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10-31-2012, 11:12 PM
  #27
Habitant le colon
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Originally Posted by Jerky View Post
the problem is I don't want to put Galchenyuk on the wing, and I think he's too good to stay in junior next year (he can't play in Hamilton until he's 20)

I also don't want to lose Eller or Pleks (or put them on the wing)

Moving Desharnais to the wing would be the best option, but that would still break up that line.

The big problem is how much will Desharnais ask for next year as an RFA. He definitely deserves a raise from the $850k he's making, but if he's asking for Parenteau money, then I'd have to look elsewhere for help.

The max I'd give would be $2.75 million per on a 2 year deal. I guess the lockout is a good thing for us for negotiating, as he'll be getting a raise based on 1 year of stats. If we were playing now and he were to get 60 pts again, then we'd be in big trouble CAP wise next season, as he'd probably ask for $4 million+
Having Galchenyuk along the side is the best option to let him aknowledge the speed and the board hitting situation then after a while when Eller Plekanec or Desharnais will be injuried you test him ... it's going to be the same for Leblanc (who will defenitly be a winger in the NHL) ... Galchenyuk Plekanec Gionta can be an Excellent trio when you look at it 2 great playmaker who can score with a Veteran scorer .... I wont take a Gamble with a Eller Boedker duo because we hope to make chemistry and a spot space ... Desharnais won't live Halak,s or Huet treatment ... if so I will hate this team badly !

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10-31-2012, 11:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
Having Galchenyuk along the side is the best option to let him aknowledge the speed and the board hitting situation then after a while when Eller Plekanec or Desharnais will be injuried you test him ... it's going to be the same for Leblanc (who will defenitly be a winger in the NHL) ... Galchenyuk Plekanec Gionta can be an Excellent trio when you look at it 2 great playmaker who can score with a Veteran scorer .... I wont take a Gamble with a Eller Boedker duo because we hope to make chemistry and a spot space ... Desharnais won't live Halak,s or Huet treatment ... if so I will hate this team badly !
What kind of style do you think Therrien will have the boys playing, may I ask?

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11-01-2012, 06:58 AM
  #29
Habitant le colon
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What kind of style do you think Therrien will have the boys playing, may I ask?
knowing that Therrien love agressive pression I do think (and highly hope) a 2 man pressure. Cole Gionta Gomez and Plekanec know that well and love it. Desharnais and Pacioretty will defenitly be a fit as Eller and Moen. Armstrong Bouillon Markov already know Therrien pressure style and this would be a +. Gorges will also love that kind of transition as Subban will defenitly emerge as a top leader if he follows the rules. Emelin Diaz will have to adapt but I guess that aggressivity factor for Emelin will be a +. I only wonder about Leblanc Prust Weber and Bourque in matter from where they are in their respective career and task they will have. Prust and bourque might have a big task : Make Gomez produce again. White will have to fight for a spot. Kaberle will be on the edge all the year if not traded soon in the season.

but that my own vision. From now I wait about Galchenyuk be on the team cuz this belong to Bergevin !

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11-01-2012, 11:50 AM
  #30
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Why on earth Montreal would send a 60 point producing center AND a pick to Phoenix for a guy who never even broke the 30 point mark in his 4 NHL seasons is a complete mystery to me. Can someone, heck, ANYONE explain why we would be adding the pick to get Boedker when DD has already done significantly better than him? Even the year before last DD had 8 more points in ony 9 more games.

Seriously? Boedker has 69 points in 208 games, whereas DD has 83 points in 130 games. We are also not saying that Boedker is that much better a goal scorer since he has 27 goals in 208 games to DD's 24 in 130 games.

Heck, to give this lopsided foolishness more perspective, DD would have been the best point producing center on Phoenix last year by 23 points, making him an easy candidate for 1st line duties on Phoenix like he had in Montreal. Why would we play Boedker on our 1st line at wing? Who would he replace? Wait, who would he replace on our second line at wing? Who would he be a significant upgrade over that makes him worth a 1st line center, who has done far better in far less NHL time, AND a draft pick???

Any GM who said "no" from the Phoenix side would fired for sheer stupidity...

Give me a break.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:13 PM
  #31
Jerky
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Ke$ha’s hit “Tik Tok” sold more copies than any Beatles single.

I guess that makes her better right?

Only fools judge things on the surface, which is what you are doing by looking solely at point totals. You obviously have no eye for talent. There's a reason why Boedker was picked 8th overall and Desharnais went undrafted.

Desharnais plays in an open system with two beasts as his wingers, and on a last place team with carte blanche to do what he wants. Montreal didn't have a system last year. It was chaos. Any half decent center would have put up the same totals playing on that line last year. 60 pts is average for a top 6 center, not amazing or even that good. It's adequate. Gomez put up 59 pts his first year with us and everyone was underwhelmed, but Desharnais puts up 60 and all of a sudden he's the next Marty St Louis.

Boedker plays in a trap system that requires puck control and back checking to succeed, which in turn stymies offensive creativity. He was also rushed into the NHL and had to work hard to catchup, but he is now primed for a breakout season.

Boedker would be a completely different player in MTL, who uses speedy wingers to create offense. Being one of the fastest players in the game, Boedker would thrive here. And he would be on the 2nd line, but of course you're too lazy to scroll up or check the previous page or you would have seen that I've already mentioned his position on this team.

The reason I added the pick is because if I called Phoenix and offered Desharnais straight up for Boedker, they would hang up on me and never answer my calls again.

1 for 1 would be an absolute steal for Montreal, and I would win GM of the Year for pulling off that trade.

Take off the homer glasses already and start watching hockey league wide....not just the Habs, then maybe you'd know the value of each player across the league.

PA Parenteau had more points than Evander Kane the last 2 seasons, I guess that makes him better too.

Anyways, I'm done arguing this. Chime in if you like, my points have been made.


Last edited by Jerky: 11-01-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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11-01-2012, 12:48 PM
  #32
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I bet you also thought that Ovechkin was better then Crosby when he was putting up 110 pts with Backstrom and Semin, while Crosby had to play with Kunitz, Armstrong, and a washed up Bill Guerin and John Leclair.
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
ovechkin was nothin without backstrom ice vision to me !
That's funny. Is it okay that Backstrom was drafted in 2006 and the first season he actually centered Ovechkin was 2008-2009?
Ovis' point production in 3 seasons w/o Backstrom
2005-2006 81g 52g 54a 106p
2006-2007 82g 46g 46a 92p
2007-2008 82g 65g 47a 112p career high.
Habs fans are just funny

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:00 PM
  #33
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Desharnais plays in an open system with two beasts as his wingers, and on a last place team with carte blanche to do what he wants. Montreal didn't have a system last year. It was chaos. Any half decent center would have put up the same totals playing on that line last year. 60 pts is average for a top 6 center, not amazing or even that good. It's adequate. Gomez put up 59 pts his first year with us and everyone was underwhelmed, but Desharnais puts up 60 and all of a sudden he's the next Marty St Louis.
I agree with most of what you said, re:Boedker and his relative value... but I think the above paragraph undersells Desharnais. If there was any lack of systematic play for the Habs last year, it was not in a fashion which would normally tend to accentuate offensive production. True, Desharnais did end up playing with the two best wingers... who produced better when Desharnais arrived with them. He wasn't gifted the spot, he worked his way up as the best option. He was the 20th leading scorer in the league at center, and you can split hairs all day on what that means re: "top 6" status, what the "average" would be, etc. But he put himself there in the top-6, in his first full season, at a great price tag. I don't think anybody classifies it as "the next Marty St.Louis". He but he did a great job all the same. He shows natural ability at generating offense, and has managed to step up into a top role quickly now at each stage of his pro progression. Most 5'7" offensive dynamos don't get there. He has done something special and does have some praiseworthy traits, even if you don't have to extrapolate all the way to St.Louis.

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:37 PM
  #34
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I agree with most of what you said, re:Boedker and his relative value... but I think the above paragraph undersells Desharnais. If there was any lack of systematic play for the Habs last year, it was not in a fashion which would normally tend to accentuate offensive production. True, Desharnais did end up playing with the two best wingers... who produced better when Desharnais arrived with them. He wasn't gifted the spot, he worked his way up as the best option. He was the 20th leading scorer in the league at center, and you can split hairs all day on what that means re: "top 6" status, what the "average" would be, etc. But he put himself there in the top-6, in his first full season, at a great price tag. I don't think anybody classifies it as "the next Marty St.Louis". He but he did a great job all the same. He shows natural ability at generating offense, and has managed to step up into a top role quickly now at each stage of his pro progression. Most 5'7" offensive dynamos don't get there. He has done something special and does have some praiseworthy traits, even if you don't have to extrapolate all the way to St.Louis.
Actually, last year both Pacioretty and Cole scored goals at a faster rate at even strength away from Desharnais rather than with him, the reason they scored the bulk of their goals with Desharnais was because they played the bulk of their minutes with him. They didn't spend enough PP time away from him to make any meaningful comparison.

Pacioretty:
W DD: 1.30 per hour
W/O DD: 1.63 per hour

Cole:
W DD: 1.11 per hour
W/O DD: 1.39 per hour

Not to say Desharnais was bad at his role or anything, he's obviously a good playmaker. But its a myth to say he got 67 and 72 to score faster with him than without out him in 2011-12. Its easy to see where this got started, neither Pacioretty nor Cole started the year hot before the big line got tried, but once they were hot the scoring proceeded with or without Desharnais on the ice.

So if you want to say, Desharnais can be the primary playmaker in a top level scoring line, you'd have evidence for that from the past season. If you want to say, Desharnais got Cole and Pacioretty scoring faster with him rather than away from him last year, that would be technically wrong.

The one noticable change is that Cole went from a bad powerplay goal scorer to a good one playing with Desharnais. Which is how he went from a 26 to 35 goal scorer despite his even strength goal scoring rate going only slightly up in Montreal compared to Carolina. He got 10 PP goals after a long period of not being a good PP scorer in Carolina.

A better demonstration of his offensive talents was getting very good offensive production out of the Habs 4th line in 2010-11.

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:44 PM
  #35
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Don't get me wrong, I like the kid, but I don't see him as the future of the Habs.

I have a special place in my heart for smaller guys that prove themselves in the NHL (Theo Fleury is one of my favorite players of all time, and I'm high on Gallagher's upside), but I just find it comical that Habs fans are going gaga over a decent player, not a great one.

When it comes time to make the decision of which center is the odd man out between Desharnais, Pleks, Eller and Gally....for me it's an easy decision. And that decision is made even easier by the fact that David D is up for a contract and a big raise next year. We don't know what the CAP will be, we still have to sign Subban and who knows if we have to eat Gomez's and Kaberle's contracts for another year. Even if we buy them out, that's still some dead CAP space eating at our total.

Our center spot is strong now (finally!!!) and our goaltending and D-squad is set for the future. What we desperately need is scoring help on the wing. Gionta's contract is up in a year or two (depending on the lockout) and Cole might not be able to keep up his scoring over the term of his contract.

Bourque is lazy and can no longer be counted on to play a full 82 games on a scoring line.

The one constant we have going forward is Patches.

We have Gallagher that might be able to take Gionta's spot (fingers crossed) and Leblanc who might be a 3rd liner who'll get some 2nd line minutes every now and then.

Collberg is touted as a scorer and can take over Cole's spot when his contract is done.

After that our wingers are thin. I don't think Holland's, Bozon's or Hudon's junior scoring will translate to the NHL level.

So we have Patches, Cole, Gionta as top 6 wingers now, and Patches, Collberg, Gallagher in a few seasons time.

In both cases we're missing another top 6 LW, which is why I proposed the trade for Boedker, whom I strongly believe is on the verge of breaking out. He's only 22 years old and has experience under his belt.

Strike while the iron is hot, for it will be impossible to get him once he puts up 60pts, that's why my offer is what it is. I was trying to make a fair trade for the long term.

Centers and Defense is what we have in spades, so those are our trading cards. We still have Bournival and Vail at Center, whom I believe will both be in the NHL someday.

Now if we get another top 10 pick and draft Barkov, Shinkaruk, Erne or Droiun to fill that spot then my point is moot, but I'm not gonna take the wait and see approach to fix my team.

That's what Pierre Gauthier did...I'm more proactive

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Old
11-01-2012, 04:36 PM
  #36
Drydenwasthebest
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Ke$ha’s hit “Tik Tok” sold more copies than any Beatles single.

I guess that makes her better right?

Try comparing apples to apples, not racing cars to movies.

Only fools judge things on the surface, which is what you are doing by looking solely at point totals.

You must be quite the fool since you are insulting me on a surface analysis, then. I used the simplest form of analysis to demonstrate some of the stupidity of your argument. If you want to look deeper, then let's look at DD's motor, which is always on "high". Let's look at his compete level, which is always on "high". Let's look at what Pacioretty says about him being the best center he has ever played with. Let's look at the CHEMISTRY between Cole, Pacioretty, and DD and recognize that it is as important as any skill. As a simple example, look at how Carter did so poorly with Columbus and did so well with Philly and LA. Skill is great. Chemistry with team mates is just as important in many ways. The point differential was simply the easiest and most quantifiable aspect where DD has PROVEN himself to be far beter than Boedker so far.

You obviously have no eye for talent. There's a reason why Boedker was picked 8th overall and Desharnais went undrafted.

Yes, the "reason" being that scouts are human and make mistakes. Unless you truly think over 30 players in Subban's draft year were better than him since he was drafted in the second round. There are plenty of reasons that some players get drafted very high and never succeed at the level they were drafted at. Gagner was drafted 6th overall. Give me DD over Gagner any day of the week. A player's draft position is ONLY ONE of many indicators of your talent. It is not the ONLY indicator. Only a fool judges things on a surface analysis, remember?

Desharnais plays in an open system with two beasts as his wingers, and on a last place team with carte blanche to do what he wants. Montreal didn't have a system last year. It was chaos.

Actually, DD and the rest of our poor Habs played in a stagnating defensive systm that didn't truly utilize the team's actual strengths. Our coach refused to accept that we were a run-and-gun built team and tried to play us in a defensive system that needed big bodies and hard hitters. We never allowed our players to run the way they were supposed to. Gainey built this team on the belief that obstruction wouldn't exist, holding wouldn't exist, and the supposed understanding that speed would kill. He, as did we all, learned that was not entirely the case, and our coach tried to stuff the round peg of our offensive little guys into the square peg suited to the Boston Bruins.

Any half decent center would have put up the same totals playing on that line last year. 60 pts is average for a top 6 center, not amazing or even that good. It's adequate. Gomez put up 59 pts his first year with us and everyone was underwhelmed, but Desharnais puts up 60 and all of a sudden he's the next Marty St Louis.

I never called him Martin St. Louis. Also, he put up 60 points which placed him 20th in centers in the league in scoring. That is a FIRST line center, not just a mere top 6 center, in this league. Only 19 centers out of 30 1st line centers scored more points than DD. Gomez scoring 59 points for a $7 million dollar salary after many years in the league and a superstar salary is a disappointment. DD putting up 60 points in his first full season after going undrafted for the league minimum is incredible. If you can not figure out why, then you are right about one of us not having an eye for talent and, I would add, not understanding the game at all.

Boedker plays in a trap system that requires puck control and back checking to succeed, which in turn stymies offensive creativity. He was also rushed into the NHL and had to work hard to catchup, but he is now primed for a breakout season.

Yes, Boedker plays in a more restrictive system. He is "primed" for a breakout season. DD already had his breakout season in his first full season playing on a team in turmoil stuck in a defensive system not tailored to the needs of almost any of the players.

Boedker would be a completely different player in MTL, who uses speedy wingers to create offense. Being one of the fastest players in the game, Boedker would thrive here. And he would be on the 2nd line, but of course you're too lazy to scroll up or check the previous page or you would have seen that I've already mentioned his position on this team.

I wasn't lazy, you didn't understand what I was saying. I was saying that he is not better than what we currently have based on what he has shown so far in his NHL career. You are way to stuck in the past of his minor league accomplishments and damned draft position to realize we do not need him and that he will only thrive here if we have an actual system in place to allow for his speed to actually be used properly. We may or may not have that system when next we play, but currently have no idea since we have not yet seen how the NEW COACH will play his players.

The reason I added the pick is because if I called Phoenix and offered Desharnais straight up for Boedker, they would hang up on me and never answer my calls again.

Absolute BS. They would take DD and run away smiling.

1 for 1 would be an absolute steal for Montreal, and I would win GM of the Year for pulling off that trade.

If you were the Phoenix GM, yes. If you were the Habs GM you would be fired. (You do notice the use of hyperbole is deliberate and demonstrates that neither of us can prove either of the foolish things this refers to, right?)

Take off the homer glasses already and start watching hockey league wide....not just the Habs, then maybe you'd know the value of each player across the league.

I compete in fantasy hockey pools every year and win almost all of them. I watch far more hockey across the league than I should since I am not a paid scout. I know most of the best players' good and bad points, find key minor role players every year as they are about to breakout and catch them before most others. I love hockey, not just my beloved Habs, and enjoy it as often as huimanly possible. Try to avoid making assumptions about people you have never met and stick to arguing about hockey.

PA Parenteau had more points than Evander Kane the last 2 seasons, I guess that makes him better too.

No, it doesn't.

Anyways, I'm done arguing this. Chime in if you like, my points have been made.

It is always easier to run away after trying to deride someone rather than let them have a chance to show you where you are wrong. Feel free to keep running.
I hope you at least read the "chiming" on my part. Let me know when you need help with the understanding part. If ever you want a more civil discussion, try not to be so insulting in your replies.

Again, DD is the better player right now as demonstrated by what he has accomplished at the NHL level. Boedker has tons of potential that may very well be fulfilled this year, next, or...never. I will keep the player who has done more, has terrific chemistry with my two best power forwards, and also has plenty of room to get better. Unless, of course, you are one of those guys who are convinced that DD will never get better. If you are, then you can join a long line of people who never thought he would be capable of playing in this league who are eating their words after watching this undrafted young man use his desire and incredible compete level to prove them all wrong.

Good luck with future "analyses" of people and players' talent.


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 11-01-2012 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Fixed some things...
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Old
11-01-2012, 04:59 PM
  #37
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Don't get me wrong, I like the kid, but I don't see him as the future of the Habs.

I have a special place in my heart for smaller guys that prove themselves in the NHL (Theo Fleury is one of my favorite players of all time, and I'm high on Gallagher's upside), but I just find it comical that Habs fans are going gaga over a decent player, not a great one.

When it comes time to make the decision of which center is the odd man out between Desharnais, Pleks, Eller and Gally....for me it's an easy decision. And that decision is made even easier by the fact that David D is up for a contract and a big raise next year. We don't know what the CAP will be, we still have to sign Subban and who knows if we have to eat Gomez's and Kaberle's contracts for another year. Even if we buy them out, that's still some dead CAP space eating at our total.

Our center spot is strong now (finally!!!) and our goaltending and D-squad is set for the future. What we desperately need is scoring help on the wing. Gionta's contract is up in a year or two (depending on the lockout) and Cole might not be able to keep up his scoring over the term of his contract.

Bourque is lazy and can no longer be counted on to play a full 82 games on a scoring line.

The one constant we have going forward is Patches.

We have Gallagher that might be able to take Gionta's spot (fingers crossed) and Leblanc who might be a 3rd liner who'll get some 2nd line minutes every now and then.

Collberg is touted as a scorer and can take over Cole's spot when his contract is done.

After that our wingers are thin. I don't think Holland's, Bozon's or Hudon's junior scoring will translate to the NHL level.

So we have Patches, Cole, Gionta as top 6 wingers now, and Patches, Collberg, Gallagher in a few seasons time.

In both cases we're missing another top 6 LW, which is why I proposed the trade for Boedker, whom I strongly believe is on the verge of breaking out. He's only 22 years old and has experience under his belt.

Strike while the iron is hot, for it will be impossible to get him once he puts up 60pts, that's why my offer is what it is. I was trying to make a fair trade for the long term.

Centers and Defense is what we have in spades, so those are our trading cards. We still have Bournival and Vail at Center, whom I believe will both be in the NHL someday.

Now if we get another top 10 pick and draft Barkov, Shinkaruk, Erne or Droiun to fill that spot then my point is moot, but I'm not gonna take the wait and see approach to fix my team.

That's what Pierre Gauthier did...I'm more proactive
This is a very different post to the one you gave me earlier. I would have preferred this one.

Yes, we need a young top 6 LW player. I think too many people are ready to throw Bourque under the bus for a bad season, considering he is more than capable of putting up almost 30 goals while being physical, but I can uderstand peoples' fears about him after his poor play last year. Let him start the year with or second line, working with Plekanec and Gionta, and I am still fairly certain he will turn it around, especially since he will be in a situation where the season is not already pretty done for and will not have all of the chaos and uncertainty he joined when first he became a Habs player.

However, I understand wanting a top young LW to replace him on the 2nd line.

I also understand we seem to be stronger at center, and we should try to use a center to get a young stud on the wing. Trith be told, I would rather trade Plekanec for a package with Chicago and go after Brandon Saad (plus a pick and a player like Jimmy Hayes who would be fantastic on our 3rd line), rather than Boedker. Losing Plekanec hurts, but we can move Eller up and give Galchenyuk sheltered minutes the way the Bruins did with Seguin in hi first year. A line of Eller, Saad, and Gionta would be very interesting to watch. What we lose in experience and defensive pay from trading Plekanec could be recovered in both the defensive play of Eller and the offensive output of Saad. In any case, I am going too far astray.

One of the most important things about DD is the chemistry he has with Cole and Pacioretty. Patches lobbied for DD and has told the world that DD is the best center he has ever played with. They do well together, and are both young enough to continue to improve together with Cole's strength and experience helping them both. There is no valid reason for destroying the chemistry of our top line to take on a "maybe" in Boedker. There are other options out there for consideration.

Moving DD should only happen if it is in a package to get one of the top 15 guys out there who could truly help us, or for a stud youngster that is probably untouchable (a guy like an RNH---I know he is untouchable, I am simply using him as an example, not as anything remotely realistic).

I do think if a top 10 pick from 2013 were offered for DD I would have to consider it very carefully, too. Other than that, I don't really see a need for destroying our top line and pissing off our best young power forward who is very outspoken and lets people know when he is angry.

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Old
11-01-2012, 05:01 PM
  #38
Habitant le colon
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are we on habs board or trade board ? so confusing

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Old
11-01-2012, 05:11 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Fuelled by Passion View Post
That's funny. Is it okay that Backstrom was drafted in 2006 and the first season he actually centered Ovechkin was 2008-2009?
Ovis' point production in 3 seasons w/o Backstrom
2005-2006 81g 52g 54a 106p
2006-2007 82g 46g 46a 92p
2007-2008 82g 65g 47a 112p career high.
Habs fans are just funny
saying in the context of semin backstrom and ovi ... backstrom was the ciment to create a line ... before that is out of the context that op was telling !! Ovi is one of the best lonely player on Earth ... still Backstrom can help to make other better wich Ovi I don't think so. And if you look closely I was talking about ice vision.

so I need to Clarify a bit ... Malkn and Datsyuk are the greatest then come Crosby and Ovechkin reality and so go on an on for the rest. And yes it's not a matter of point but game all around in and out ice perspectivly. ( Zetterberg Kovalchiuk Backstrom Sedin(s) .. .. .. )

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11-01-2012, 05:24 PM
  #40
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This doesn't make any sense for Montreal in my mind. Trading a centre who scored 60 points in his first full season just doesn't make sense. It makes even less once you realize that Montreal is weak at centre and that no one is ready in our organization to step in immediately and produce like that. He also has chemistry with two of our wingers.

Boedker may be one of my favourite players in the NHL and he had a great playoffs. He looks poised to break out. I really appreciate what he bring to the table in speed, intensity, and skills. Which are things that are heavily need on this team.

I can completely understand why Phoenix fans wouldn't want to do this, he's looks on the verge of breaking out, and he's still very young. But the bottom line is with all thing considered, you don't trade a 60 point centre (could have even more potential) for a player who has potential to score 60 points.

For Habs fan specifically, I don't understand what's with our fascination in moving a centre. Galchenyuk is a PROSPECT, he hasn't played in the NHL. He may be a 3rd overall pick, but he hasn't proven anything yet. People expect him to come into the NHL and score 70 points right away. I don't think that's going to happen, it takes a very special player to do that. Ease him into the line up and give him time to grow, be patient. Rushing players and forcing them into a role that they can't produce in is not good.

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11-01-2012, 06:11 PM
  #41
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Pacioretty:
W DD: 1.30 per hour
W/O DD: 1.63 per hour

Cole:
W DD: 1.11 per hour
W/O DD: 1.39 per hour

Not to say Desharnais was bad at his role or anything, he's obviously a good playmaker. But its a myth to say he got 67 and 72 to score faster with him than without out him in 2011-12.
Can you provide the TOI and goals background data to help round this out better?

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11-01-2012, 06:52 PM
  #42
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This doesn't make any sense for Montreal in my mind. Trading a centre who scored 60 points in his first full season just doesn't make sense. It makes even less once you realize that Montreal is weak at centre and that no one is ready in our organization to step in immediately and produce like that. He also has chemistry with two of our wingers.

Boedker may be one of my favourite players in the NHL and he had a great playoffs. He looks poised to break out. I really appreciate what he bring to the table in speed, intensity, and skills. Which are things that are heavily need on this team.

I can completely understand why Phoenix fans wouldn't want to do this, he's looks on the verge of breaking out, and he's still very young. But the bottom line is with all thing considered, you don't trade a 60 point centre (could have even more potential) for a player who has potential to score 60 points.

For Habs fan specifically, I don't understand what's with our fascination in moving a centre. Galchenyuk is a PROSPECT, he hasn't played in the NHL. He may be a 3rd overall pick, but he hasn't proven anything yet. People expect him to come into the NHL and score 70 points right away. I don't think that's going to happen, it takes a very special player to do that. Ease him into the line up and give him time to grow, be patient. Rushing players and forcing them into a role that they can't produce in is not good.
We still have Gomez, someone who's had 9 seasons at 55 points plus and is still only 32. He's not worth what he's paid but for 2nd/3rd line filler duty he'll be fine.

Nobody here seems to think we'll be a better team in the next year or two by making the trade, at least I certainly don't, but now is the time to making trades like this if they present themselves.

Also, I don't see Phoenix making the trade but Desharnais certainly is a good player that would help them out.

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11-01-2012, 06:56 PM
  #43
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Can you provide the TOI and goals background data to help round this out better?
Sure, its not my work though, MathMan put it together.

http://awinninghabit.com/2012/10/29/...and-situation/
http://awinninghabit.com/2012/10/21/...and-situation/

Cole, 7 goals in 5.03 hrs w/o,
16 in 14.43 hrs with

Pacioretty, 8 goals in 4.92 hrs w/o
18 in 13.80 hrs with.

In the limited time those two spend with Plekanec in particular they tended to knock the oppositions teeth in by most measurements. It wasn't anti-size or anti-franco sentiment to note that those two were really strong wingers last year independent of centerman and believe they were scoring on their own merits and not being "made" by Desharnais playmaking.

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11-01-2012, 07:42 PM
  #44
Habitant le colon
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Actually, last year both Pacioretty and Cole scored goals at a faster rate at even strength away from Desharnais rather than with him, the reason they scored the bulk of their goals with Desharnais was because they played the bulk of their minutes with him. They didn't spend enough PP time away from him to make any meaningful comparison.

Pacioretty:
W DD: 1.30 per hour
W/O DD: 1.63 per hour

Cole:
W DD: 1.11 per hour
W/O DD: 1.39 per hour

Not to say Desharnais was bad at his role or anything, he's obviously a good playmaker. But its a myth to say he got 67 and 72 to score faster with him than without out him in 2011-12. Its easy to see where this got started, neither Pacioretty nor Cole started the year hot before the big line got tried, but once they were hot the scoring proceeded with or without Desharnais on the ice.

So if you want to say, Desharnais can be the primary playmaker in a top level scoring line, you'd have evidence for that from the past season. If you want to say, Desharnais got Cole and Pacioretty scoring faster with him rather than away from him last year, that would be technically wrong.

The one noticable change is that Cole went from a bad powerplay goal scorer to a good one playing with Desharnais. Which is how he went from a 26 to 35 goal scorer despite his even strength goal scoring rate going only slightly up in Montreal compared to Carolina. He got 10 PP goals after a long period of not being a good PP scorer in Carolina.

A better demonstration of his offensive talents was getting very good offensive production out of the Habs 4th line in 2010-11.
this is great do yo have all around stats and a confidence factor ? I think dd light up the game and create a Chemistry but I not saying that the 2 winger where getting from him the goal but the space to be creative then upgrade their scoring chance rate wich occur in a reasonable rise of scoring for both ... this I don,t think that Plekanec will be that good to them.

Am I wrong?

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11-01-2012, 08:28 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
saying in the context of semin backstrom and ovi ... backstrom was the ciment to create a line ... before that is out of the context that op was telling !! Ovi is one of the best lonely player on Earth ... still Backstrom can help to make other better wich Ovi I don't think so. And if you look closely I was talking about ice vision.

so I need to Clarify a bit ... Malkn and Datsyuk are the greatest then come Crosby and Ovechkin reality and so go on an on for the rest. And yes it's not a matter of point but game all around in and out ice perspectivly. ( Zetterberg Kovalchiuk Backstrom Sedin(s) .. .. .. )
If you were trying to say that Backstrom is an elite center with awesome vision I have no doubt it is true. He is more valuable to a team then Ovi cuz of 1 simple reason - he is center. Cup winners are built on elite centers and goalies, after that defenders. The wingers are always last imo. Wingers are most dependable roles in hockey. Especially creative snipers type. If noone feeds them with puck they kinda useless. Most of offensively talented wingers are average at the most in defense. So therefore I don't really understand why Montreal would wanna trade center for a winger? I believe the reason why home-grown wingers didn't work for Habs is cuz they had no elite center in last 10 years (maybe only Gomez)).
So any winger who could put 50+ points with Montreal could proly be 70+ points guy on a elite center wing. Unless someone wanna name me 1 elite play-making center played for this organizations in last 10 years....

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11-01-2012, 09:19 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
are we on habs board or trade board ? so confusing
No from the Coyotes. Boedker definitely turned the corner in the playoffs. Phoenix would be stupid to trade him before they see what they've really got. He's a great 2-way player, was drafted 8th overall and signed to a good contract. Great kid. No team, especially one coached by Dave Tippett, would be eager to get rid of such a player. It'd have to be as part of a deal for something far better than Desharnais

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11-01-2012, 09:20 PM
  #47
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this is great do yo have all around stats and a confidence factor ? I think dd light up the game and create a Chemistry but I not saying that the 2 winger where getting from him the goal but the space to be creative then upgrade their scoring chance rate wich occur in a reasonable rise of scoring for both ... this I don,t think that Plekanec will be that good to them.

Am I wrong?
What your asking isn't exactly clear but I'll do my best answering.

The sample size is too small to say Plekanec was necessarily better a better center for the two wingers than Desharnais. But its doesn't make any sense for him to be considered worse for them in a season that's already happened with a better rate during the previous season. To whit, this is descriptive rather than predictive. I'd make no claims off it beyond saying that it disproves the notion that 67 or 72 were better at scoring with Desharnais rather than without him in 2011-12.

Keep in mind who looks better in the offensive zone is not necessarily indicative of who is going to create more scoring. Especially comparing two centers of completely different styles like Desharnais and Plekanec. Desharnais looks good setting up players but that's his dominant skill. Plekanec's biggest skill his getting the puck away from the defensive zone and towards the offensive zone. So one is likely contributing to offence in ways that you're less likely to remember.

If we are to make predictions, its best not to use goals entirely. Far too few events. I'd say you'd have to base it either on scoring chance or shots data although that would have other flaws when you'd want to predict future goals.

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11-01-2012, 11:29 PM
  #48
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desharnais for booth could only end up 2b lateral at best / desharnais and subban in a package for jamie benn and package would be a step forward


Last edited by glenbuis: 11-01-2012 at 11:30 PM. Reason: understanding
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11-02-2012, 11:32 AM
  #49
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I don't know why it is such a URGE for some Habs to trade a guy like Desharnais as SOON as he becomes successful. It seems like there's two types of Habs fan, you're either pro-Quebecer, or anti-Quebecer, which is sad.

Desharnais has EARNED his spot and I'm against trading him at this point, especially for a move that is at the very best lateral. Let Galchenyuk earn his ice time as well, and once he does deserve to get big minutes, you might have a point trading Desharnais, Eller or Plekanec.

Not to mention that out of the 3 names I've enumerated, Desharnais is most definitely the less likely to be traded away.

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11-02-2012, 01:09 PM
  #50
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Just an awful awful trade proposal. Not even close to what I'd expect to get in a trade for DD....and you throw in our second?! It's laughable. You must be joking.

While we're at it lets trade all our good players for players that might be good someday.

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