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What would be the harm in moving Lupul away from Kessel?

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Old
11-01-2012, 08:30 AM
  #1
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What would be the harm in moving Lupul away from Kessel?

Honestly folks. We really don't know what's in store when Randy Carlyle makes the starting rosters for the season. It could be that he likes Lupul and Kessel together. The last couple of years the problem with Toronto has been their scoring depth and defensive play of the top 6. Usually one line was scoring and the other struggled. The only constant has been Kessel. He has scored even when his line mates were Crabb and Bozak. Many argue that the success of Kessel / Lupul was the Ron Wilson's run and gun philosophy. What will those two be like when they are in a more defensive system? Are they defensive enough to be on one line together?

I say split them up. If Lupul is as good as you say he is then he will find his scoring touch on the 2nd line. We know that Kessel will get 30 + goals no matter what. I think that creating a balance is key and taking less defensive liabilities off of the same line might help in the Win Column.

What do you think?

What are your Carlyle rosters as opposed to your Wilson ones?

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11-01-2012, 08:33 AM
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Yeah let's split up one of the highest scoring duos in the league last year.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabo-JVR
Kadri-McClement(if he returns to pre concussion form, Lombardi)-Frattin
Komarov-Steckel/McClement(if he's on on line 3)-Brown

Gunnarsson-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Liles-Holzer

Reimer
Scrivens


Mac and Connolly can gtfo.

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11-01-2012, 08:36 AM
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Because Lupul is our worst defensive forward, we'd need a strong defensive center to counter balance that line a little bit. Unfortunately, that won't be happening anytime soon.

For now, keep Lupul - Kessel together. They were one of the hottest duos last year so that's something that we don't want to change. The second line struggling had nothing to do with our top line; it had everything to do with Kulemin. Yes, it is Kulemin's fault that Grabovski was forced to pick up the slack for the second line.

If the top line struggles next year then break them up, until then just leave it. There really isn't much you can change anyways - Lupul would drop down to the second line and JVR would likely switch to top line.

Also "hot topic"? Really?

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Van Riemsdyk - Grabovski - Kadri
MacArthur - Connolly - Kulemin
McClement - Steckel - Brown
Lombardi

MacArthur/Connolly/Lombardi eventually get moved to make room for Frattin/whoever else.

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11-01-2012, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Because Lupul is our worst defensive forward, we'd need a strong defensive center to counter balance that line a little bit. Unfortunately, that won't be happening anytime soon.

For now, keep Lupul - Kessel together. They were one of the hottest duos last year so that's something that we don't want to change. The second line struggling had nothing to do with our top line; it had everything to do with Kulemin. Yes, it is Kulemin's fault that Grabovski was forced to pick up the slack for the second line.

If the top line struggles next year then break them up, until then just leave it. There really isn't much you can change anyways - Lupul would drop down to the second line and JVR would likely switch to top line.
I respectfully disagree that Lupul is our worst defensive player. He's no Selke candidate, but we have guys worse than him. His Allstar linemate comes to mind

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11-01-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Ball Hockey View Post
Yeah let's split up one of the highest scoring duos in the league last year.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabo-JVR
Kadri-McClement(if he returns to pre concussion form, Lombardi)-Frattin
Komarov-Steckel/McClement(if he's on on line 3)-Brown

Gunnarsson-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Liles-Holzer

Reimer
Scrivens


Mac and Connolly can gtfo.
if you think that the 25th place leafs "ain't broke" then i cannot figure out what you get from hockey or cheering for this team? do you only care about sick goals and fantasy league point totals?

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11-01-2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
if you think that the 25th place leafs "ain't broke" then i cannot figure out what you get from hockey or cheering for this team? do you only care about sick goals and fantasy league point totals?
pretty obvious he meant the lupul/bozak/kessel line was not to be changed. but only you would make it out to be the entire team.

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11-01-2012, 08:56 AM
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There is a lot that can be said for player chemistry. Some players seem to feed off eachother while on the ice. Kessel and Lupul seem to be an example. While both players can produce on their own, they produce far more when togeather...seem to know when the other is going to be or what the other player is thinking. Not a good idea to break appart a combo like this while it works.

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11-01-2012, 09:02 AM
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There is a lot that can be said for player chemistry. Some players seem to feed off eachother while on the ice. Kessel and Lupul seem to be an example. While both players can produce on their own, they produce far more when togeather...seem to know when the other is going to be or what the other player is thinking. Not a good idea to break appart a combo like this while it works.
Well I remember not too long ago that the HFLeaf fans declared KGM to be the top line. They too supposedly had magical chemistry. Eventually they were split up. They certainly never found that magic that they once had. Again, who knows if it was a Wilson system thing or what?

Just to add:


Look at all the HF rosters for next season. The KGM line is resoundingly split up. Most want Mac traded and Kuli on the 3rd line.

What happened to chemistry people?


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11-01-2012, 09:10 AM
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For me, it all depends on JVR.

If he works out at centre, if he does or doesn't mesh with other players, etc.

JVR could end up either 1st line C, 1st line LW, or 2nd line LW imo.

If he works better than Lupul at 1st line LW, then I have no problem trying Loops with Grabo.

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11-01-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Well I remember not too long ago that the HFLeaf fans declared KGM to be the top line. They too supposedly had magical chemistry. Eventually they were split up. They certainly never found that magic that they once had. Again, who knows if it was a Wilson system thing or what?

Just to add:


Look at all the HF rosters for next season. The KGM line is resoundingly split up. Most want Mac traded and Kuli on the 3rd line.

What happened to chemistry people?
That would probably be because Kulemin had a career worst season.

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11-01-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Well I remember not too long ago that the HFLeaf fans declared KGM to be the top line. They too supposedly had magical chemistry. Eventually they were split up. They certainly never found that magic that they once had. Again, who knows if it was a Wilson system thing or what?

Just to add:


Look at all the HF rosters for next season. The KGM line is resoundingly split up. Most want Mac traded and Kuli on the 3rd line.

What happened to chemistry people?
So because KGM struggled (despite Grabo getting 51 points and Mac scoring 20 goals) we should break up Lupul and Kessel before the season even gets going?

Logic.

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11-01-2012, 09:17 AM
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That would probably be because Kulemin had a career worst season.
Yes! So why split up KGM?! Well I guess people think that you have to make room for JVR. We'll see I guess. He was a 3rd liner on the Flyers. Is he good enough to be in the top 6?

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11-01-2012, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
So because KGM struggled (despite Grabo getting 51 points and Mac scoring 20 goals) we should break up Lupul and Kessel before the season even gets going?

Logic.
the logic has to do with several things:

1.winning
2.defensive play
3.balance
4.JVR is now a leaf
5.Carlyle

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11-01-2012, 09:23 AM
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They will obviously not be split up just for the sake of splitting them up. they played well together, and will be given the opportunity to do so again once hockey returns. if they are not playing well together I would hope the coach would have enough smarts to try something different.


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11-01-2012, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
the logic has to do with several things:

1.winning
2.defensive play
3.balance
4.JVR is now a leaf
5.Carlyle
1. Kessel and Lupul together wins us games.
2. Not every line has to be a defensive beast, especially the 1st line.
3. Lupul probably wouldn't keep up his pace without Kessel, teams could key on him more if he's leading the charge on his own line.
4. So a guy that's never broken 50 points replaces a PPG player on our top line? Ok then....
5. Carlyle kept them together last year before Lupul got hurt, did he not?


Also, I was referring to the Lupul/Kessel duo not needing to be fixed, I thought I made that pretty obvious. Guess if its not put out in big huge letters you make the assumption that what I'm saying is wrong.

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11-01-2012, 09:36 AM
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11-01-2012, 09:50 AM
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Surround Kessel with whoever works best with him in my opinion.

Lupul worked great last year. What's not to say JVR works better. Imagine who amazing that would be if Lupul still had the same chemistry but JVR had better. Or maybe a prospect such as Frattin or Kadri has better chemistry. Lupul worked out great with Kessel last year, that isn't to say he will have the best chemistry this year because we have an influx of players who may be able to do better.

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11-01-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Honestly folks. We really don't know what's in store when Randy Carlyle makes the starting rosters for the season. It could be that he likes Lupul and Kessel together. The last couple of years the problem with Toronto has been their scoring depth and defensive play of the top 6. Usually one line was scoring and the other struggled. The only constant has been Kessel. He has scored even when his line mates were Crabb and Bozak. Many argue that the success of Kessel / Lupul was the Ron Wilson's run and gun philosophy. What will those two be like when they are in a more defensive system? Are they defensive enough to be on one line together?

I say split them up. If Lupul is as good as you say he is then he will find his scoring touch on the 2nd line. We know that Kessel will get 30 + goals no matter what. I think that creating a balance is key and taking less defensive liabilities off of the same line might help in the Win Column.

What do you think?

What are your Carlyle rosters as opposed to your Wilson ones?
What is the big issue? It has nothing to do with systems, nothing to do with coaching, nothing to do with defense.

The big issue is effectiveness. With Lupul, Kessel has been incredible. Without him (both before Lupul came and when he went down with injury), he was effective but only to the level of the Kessel we saw pre-Lupul or the 65 point Kessel.

Seriously, look at the numbers. When Kessel played with Lupul, from the very game Lupul joined the Leafs back in 2010-2011, he went from 65 point player to 90 point player. Continued that pace until Lupul went down. Through the summer offseason too. When Lupul goes down? Right back to 65 point pace.

Now it could be argued that it's not Lupul but rather an effective top 6 player with offensive skill that has allowed Kessel to do this, but what does it matter? The two displayed unbelievable chemistry together and gave us two top line players. Splitting them up right now would be...just dumb. We have enough scoring depth with JVR, Grabo, MacArthur to justify keeping Lupul on the first line.

And if you're concerned about defensive play, then find them a capable center not name Bozak, or give them protected offensive zone starts like the Sedins get. Stop trying them to get them to play defense and let them do what they are best at. And that's scoring goals.

Seriously, that's what the third line is for. This idea that first line players must be Pavel Datsyuks or Jon Toews is asinine. Yeah it would be great but you can have effective first lines without it.

Or better yet get a first line center with puck possession skills and we don't have to talk about making the two of them better defenders. Problem solved.

Rant over...ugh

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:11 AM
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...
yay for videos during the lockout!

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11-01-2012, 10:11 AM
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I respectfully disagree that Lupul is our worst defensive player. He's no Selke candidate, but we have guys worse than him. His Allstar linemate comes to mind
Relative Corsi
Kessel: 3.2
Lupul: -1.7

On-Ice Goals Against per 60 Minutes
Kessel: 3.46
Lupul: 3.77

Defensive Zone Start %
Kessel: 45.7
Lupul: 44.5

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11-01-2012, 10:17 AM
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Would you prefer a line that scores 90 goals but gives up 100, or a line that only scores 75 but only gives up 65?

For a 26th place team, there should be no line combinations written in stone.

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11-01-2012, 10:24 AM
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Why break up "unbelievable chemistry" because robust offensive numbers and Brian Burke Prove You Wrong Trade Results are the most important thing. Who cares about winning right?


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11-01-2012, 10:25 AM
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Would you prefer a line that scores 90 goals but gives up 100, or a line that only scores 75 but only gives up 65?

For a 26th place team, there should be no line combinations written in stone.
Thank you for posting this.


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11-01-2012, 10:29 AM
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...
Ya... lets break that up.


In other news, I am removing my right leg because I might run faster without it.

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11-01-2012, 10:31 AM
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Why break up "unbelievable chemistry" because robust offensive numbers and Brian Burke Prove You Wrong Trade Results are the most important thing. Who cares about winning right?

Please provide any sort of evidence that the Leafs will be better with Kessel and Lupul apart. If you do that, then so be it, but I won't hold my breath.

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