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Old
10-31-2012, 09:12 AM
  #26
OnMyOwn
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He was fuggin awful last year. I don't care how you try to use stats.

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10-31-2012, 10:56 AM
  #27
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Kennedy is an average player making average money. He gets ragged on a bit too much here sometimes but all in all his standing is where it belongs. He just isn't special at anything, not like Dupuis who has great speed and killed penalties well even when he wasn't scoring. It's nice to have him as a depth winger capable of 20 goals in a healthy season, so I don't get people who want to dump him. But he's nothing great either.

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10-31-2012, 11:49 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
Kennedy is an average player making average money. He gets ragged on a bit too much here sometimes but all in all his standing is where it belongs. He just isn't special at anything, not like Dupuis who has great speed and killed penalties well even when he wasn't scoring. It's nice to have him as a depth winger capable of 20 goals in a healthy season, so I don't get people who want to dump him. But he's nothing great either.
I agree and disagree. I agree that he is an average player making a very fair average salary. I disagree with saying he isn't special. He's a player we absolutely needed in recent years. His tenacity was unmatched. This year...he struggled being himself. It happens.

I think TK, when playing his feisty way, is one of the better role players we have. His role is hard to just give away as we've tried before.

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10-31-2012, 12:06 PM
  #29
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Tenacity, to me, is part of the job requirement for a 3rd line winger. I like that about Kennedy for sure, but I don't consider it an outstanding advantage of his. I'm also worried this style keeps him getting injured. But yeah, his hustle is always welcome. I wonder what the Pens will do if he puts up a 25 goal season and someone else offers him 3+ a year. I guess it will depend on how our wing prospects develop.

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Old
11-01-2012, 09:59 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
Tenacity, to me, is part of the job requirement for a 3rd line winger. I like that about Kennedy for sure, but I don't consider it an outstanding advantage of his. I'm also worried this style keeps him getting injured. But yeah, his hustle is always welcome. I wonder what the Pens will do if he puts up a 25 goal season and someone else offers him 3+ a year. I guess it will depend on how our wing prospects develop.
The Penguins know Kennedy is not a top 6 option. He'll work hard to cycle the puck, can win battles off the wall but he just isn't creative or talented. Anytime Kennedy gets the puck in the offensive zone, no matter the angle or how many players are in front of him, he's throwing it at the net (a result, no doubt, of endless coach-speak over the years).

Kennedy has very little creativity and little more playing-making ability. Apart from his horrible shot selection, it's not heavy or accurate. It will get in the net, if only because sometimes, **** happens, but he's hardly a sniper.

There's a reason TK very very rarely plays with Crosby or Malkin- and that's because he kills shifts. His shots get deflected out of play or go straight into the goalie for an easy cover. He can't think the game on the same level as a talented center and can't play off them at all. Star centers don't like playing with guys like that.

Kennedy's good at what he's good at- speed, pressure on the forecheck, pulling pucks off the wall and throwing a lot of junk at the net. But he's not a top six option and the Penguins definitely know this, I believe they'd pay him accordingly.

That said, there's worse contracts on this team than one more year at $2 million for a good 3W.

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Old
11-01-2012, 11:07 AM
  #31
wgknestrick
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I still don't get all the comments stating that "TK is not a top 6 forward". To me this is the main reason for this thread. He sits at #6 on our team in points/60min BTW with a big gap to #7 (Sully/Cooke).

I feel that looking at his production metrics when adjusted for the little ice time he gets, shows that there is something more to his game than his lower point totals would suggest. He produces at a much higher rate than many more respected players in the league (also making more money), but still does not get ample opportunity (IMO) with respect to ice time to really shine.

No matter what you think you see in his game, he is getting it done with respect to what matters: (scoring points himself, and outscoring the opposition).

Just browse his last season's points/60 (2.14) against other teams forwards.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+5+17+18+19+20

TK would rank:

#4 on PHI (above Hartnell/Jagr)
#3 on NYR (above Richards, Anisomov)
#2 on SJS (above Pavelski, Couture, Marleau)
#2 on LAK (above William, Brown, Carter, Richards)
#6 on DET
#5 on DAL
#4 on BUF
#1 on CAR
#3 on NJD
#3 on WSH
#5 on OTT
#1 on FLA
#3 on MTL
#5 on TBL
#4 on VAN

I only found 2 teams where TK would not be in the top 6 with respect to points/60 ice time.

He would sit at #7 on CHI
He would sit at #8 on BOS

Seems to me that he is a top 6 forward on most teams in the league.

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Old
11-01-2012, 11:13 AM
  #32
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I do think Burgs hit the nail on the head regarding TK's injuries. That's a very tough style to play every night. And we know how he looks if he isn't playing that style.

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11-01-2012, 11:35 AM
  #33
mpp9
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I never understood why TK wasn't used more as our RHS on the PP

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Old
11-01-2012, 11:41 AM
  #34
Skk82
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
I still don't get all the comments stating that "TK is not a top 6 forward". To me this is the main reason for this thread. He sits at #6 on our team in points/60min BTW with a big gap to #7 (Sully/Cooke).

I feel that looking at his production metrics when adjusted for the little ice time he gets, shows that there is something more to his game than his lower point totals would suggest. He produces at a much higher rate than many more respected players in the league (also making more money), but still does not get ample opportunity (IMO) with respect to ice time to really shine.

No matter what you think you see in his game, he is getting it done with respect to what matters: (scoring points himself, and outscoring the opposition).

Just browse his last season's points/60 (2.14) against other teams forwards.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+5+17+18+19+20

TK would rank:

#4 on PHI (above Hartnell/Jagr)
#3 on NYR (above Richards, Anisomov)
#2 on SJS (above Pavelski, Couture, Marleau)
#2 on LAK (above William, Brown, Carter, Richards)
#6 on DET
#5 on DAL
#4 on BUF
#1 on CAR
#3 on NJD
#3 on WSH
#5 on OTT
#1 on FLA
#3 on MTL
#5 on TBL
#4 on VAN

I only found 2 teams where TK would not be in the top 6 with respect to points/60 ice time.

He would sit at #7 on CHI
He would sit at #8 on BOS

Seems to me that he is a top 6 forward on most teams in the league.
Points/60 doesn't really capture talent in this instance. Kennedy plays 14 minutes a night (12 at ES, 1:30 on PP), if you increased him to 20 minutes a night his P/60 would drop according to his talent.

If you put Kennedy on another weaker team where he's not playing with an elite center and not getting 50%+ O-zone starts and facing better quality of competition, his advanced stats are also going to drop.

Again, this is not to disparage TK. I think he's a fine 3rd liner and has many good traits that makes him good at such a role. But he's not a natural point producer (going back even to junior), he's just a hard-working guy who throws a lot of junk at the net.

Tyler Kennedy does not have a high P/60 because he is an adept scoring forward, he has it because he's in a good situation (good team, great center, good zone-starts, good comeptition).


Last edited by Skk82: 11-01-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old
11-01-2012, 12:03 PM
  #35
wgknestrick
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Originally Posted by Skk82 View Post
Points/60 doesn't really capture talent in this instance. Kennedy plays 14 minutes a night (12 at ES, 1:30 on PP), if you increased him to 20 minutes a night his P/60 would drop according to his talent.

If you put Kennedy on another weaker team where he's not playing with an elite center and not getting 50%+ O-zone starts and facing better quality of competition, his advanced stats are also going to drop.

Again, this is not to disparage TK. I think he's a fine 3rd liner and has many good traits that makes him good at such a role. But he's not a natural point producer (going back even to junior), he's just a hard-working guy who throws a lot of junk at the net.
We aren't talking about giving him Malkin minutes are we? We are talking about giving him Kunitz like minutes around 16-17min/game (2nd line minutes). I don't understand the notion of his production declining with more minutes (his production is already high / minute). That rate is very unlikely to change. (hence, it's a rate).

He is not even close to playing at a normal game usage level. If he had been playing 20min/game, that is a valid argument for sure. There isn't much left in the tank for Malkin/Crosby with the minutes they get. 100% utilization.

Do you think TK is on the edge of being tired/fatigued playing only 14min/game? I also love the justification for never even "trying" to give him more ice time on a 2nd line. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I'll fully come around at that point with my opinion of him. Until then..

It is hard to objectively look at his production and wonder WTF? Why doesn't this guy get more minutes, and why isn't he the default choice for our next top 6 winger? We should all appreciate TK for how good he is. He's been providing top 6 level scoring on our 3rd line.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:42 PM
  #36
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Maybe Bylsma realized he didn't have great chemistry with Malkin and Crosby. Staal Cooke and Kennedy had great chemistry as a line. Why break that up?

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:14 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
We aren't talking about giving him Malkin minutes are we? We are talking about giving him Kunitz like minutes around 16-17min/game (2nd line minutes). I don't understand the notion of his production declining with more minutes (his production is already high / minute). That rate is very unlikely to change. (hence, it's a rate).

He is not even close to playing at a normal game usage level. If he had been playing 20min/game, that is a valid argument for sure. There isn't much left in the tank for Malkin/Crosby with the minutes they get. 100% utilization.

Do you think TK is on the edge of being tired/fatigued playing only 14min/game? I also love the justification for never even "trying" to give him more ice time on a 2nd line. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I'll fully come around at that point with my opinion of him. Until then..

It is hard to objectively look at his production and wonder WTF? Why doesn't this guy get more minutes, and why isn't he the default choice for our next top 6 winger? We should all appreciate TK for how good he is. He's been providing top 6 level scoring on our 3rd line.
I'll start with this: Stats are not everything. With any type of forecasting or modeling (whether it be financial or sports related) quantitative indicators are only part of the equation. Qualitative measure also need to be considered.

In this case, qualitative measurements are difficult to assess other than using the "eye test". To me, as I have mentioned, Kennedy does not have the hockey IQ to play with an elite level center. I have no problem trying him in the top 6 or giving him more minutes, I just don't believe that he has the ability to enhance either of our top 2 lines with Sid and Malkin at the helm. IMO, I believe he will disrupt chemistry and frustrate Sid and Geno.

Unfortunately, my beliefs can't be quantified other than to say I have seen TK on countless occasions carry the puck with his head down and miss perfect give and go opportunities to Sid. He doesn't play creatively enough to anticipate plays and know where to be. Maybe he needs more opportunity to develop that with Sid or Geno, or maybe the staff just doesn't think he's good enough.

As I mentioned yesterday, the puck HAS to go through Sid and Geno the majority of the time on offense. They are the catalysts. Kennedy seems to want to be that on the 3rd line. One of the things that makes him excel in a 3rd line role, IMO, is that he is willing to lug the puck and isn't afraid to fire the puck. That becomes a problem in a top 6 role because the more he is lugging the puck, the less Sid and Geno have the puck.

The difference between him and Duper, is that Duper thinks the game at a higher level and understands his role in the top 6. He makes smart passes and while he is known to chest snipe, he has learned where and when it is appropriate.

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Old
11-01-2012, 03:44 PM
  #38
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Unfortunately, my beliefs can't be quantified other than to say I have seen TK on countless occasions carry the puck with his head down and miss perfect give and go opportunities to Sid. He doesn't play creatively enough to anticipate plays and know where to be. Maybe he needs more opportunity to develop that with Sid or Geno, or maybe the staff just doesn't think he's good enough.
There's also the evidence that, despite needing wingers, the Pens have kept Kennedy on the 3rd line except when injuries have absolutely forced their hand. There's a reason why TK hasn't played with Crosby or Malkin- NHL coaches don't think it's a good idea.

Quote:
The difference between him and Duper, is that Duper thinks the game at a higher level and understands his role in the top 6. He makes smart passes and while he is known to chest snipe, he has learned where and when it is appropriate.
I agree with this 100%. Dupuis has a much high hockey IQ. While he will try that slapper, it's not as frequent as Kennedy's bad angle shots. I also believe Dupuis is better away from the puck in terms of positioning, anticipating where the play may go and that's a small but huge edge. Neither are ideal top 6 wingers, but Dupuis' mentality makes him a better option.

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11-01-2012, 08:53 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I never understood why TK wasn't used more as our RHS on the PP
he's not very good at it. He can't pass and he can't aim. He just throws pucks on net.

TK simply doesn't have the skill-set to play with Sid or Geno long term. He's a good 3rd line shooter. He works hard and he gets pucks to the net. Very good attributes on the third line. If he had as good a shot as James Neal, it'd be a good skillset for the top 6. But he is a mediocre shooter, lacks creativity and simply doesn't know what to do when playing with higher skilled players. The hockey IQ just isn't there. Not to mention his lack of size. He will never play close to an 82 game season if he has to go against top defensemen every shift. There's just no way.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 11-01-2012 at 08:59 PM.
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Old
11-01-2012, 10:22 PM
  #40
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I appreciate Chest Snipe Kennedy and his "charge down the wall and fire" skills. He is so under-appreciated in fact, I hope the coaches permanently put him on Sid's line until he ****s up enough scoring chances that even his most die-hard fans admit they are wrong about him and demand a trade.

"Great young forward"... dry that one out and... you know the rest. No one questions his effort or speed, but take him off the 3rd line more than occasionally and that effort isn't enough for him to do the job that's required. Sometimes both legitimate skill and vision are required as compliments to the hustle, in order for a player to do well in a Top 6 roll on a consistent basis. He's made some great plays here and there but he does not possess that level of skill and vision on the whole. SOrry, he just doesn't. I don't know how many games people have to watch before they'll allow themselves to believe it. The "Pittsburgh Underdog Gritty Guy Syndrome" has some of you and won't let go / let you reason.

Agree with this post.

Kennedy is a 3rd liner. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:36 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Hard to put "awful" in the same sentence as a player who can score more 5v5 points in a given amount of time then the players below.

Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Ryan
Igilna
Jagr
Skinner
Kovalchuk
Selanne
E Staal
Nash
OK let's end this because at this point you've made it an absurdity: if you could snap your fingers and swap Tyler Kennedy (assuming salary is not an issue with the new cap) for any one of these players... you would do it?? I mean after all "he can score more points 5v5 in a given amount of time" than any of them. Statistical analysis gone haywire. Forest status: lost among the trees. No offense man, but common.

Because the implication and comparison you've made suggests that you think Kennedy is just as valuable as those guys (as an offensive player) and thus should get the same respect from us.

So if you say "yes", then we have to discard your comparison as thread drama. In that case, you don't actually believe your own BS (but at least you're hockey-sane).

If you say "no", you're pretty much insane because every one of those guys, including older guys like Jagr and Selanne, would be more valuable to this team in every situation than Tyler Kennedy. They would produce more clutch goals, create more match-up problems and generally create more wins with their good play. 100% those guys have more hockey IQ and skill in their pinky toe than Tyler Kennedy has in his entire body, and will ever have.

I know people are going nuts with these sabremetrics and statistical analysis of the month, but Jesus, don't let it kill your common sense / what your eyes see on the ice. Tyler Kennedy himself would not favorably compare his abilities to those guys.

Tyler Kennedy is literally a third rate player compared to every single one of those guys. There's a big group of players better than him and still not as good as the guys you mention.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 11-01-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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11-02-2012, 11:55 AM
  #42
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I never understood why TK wasn't used more as our RHS on the PP
Same here, I really don't get why it wasn't even tried.

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Old
11-02-2012, 05:06 PM
  #43
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I'm not a TK hater like many here but I want to see how he does without Staal. I highly doubt he hits 20g or 40p without Staal on his line. And that's no knock against Sutter.

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11-02-2012, 08:47 PM
  #44
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Same here, I really don't get why it wasn't even tried.
he can't aim his shots or pass particularly well. Sullivan, Guerin etc have always just been better for the role. I expect the same will be true for Sutter.

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11-02-2012, 09:20 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I never understood why TK wasn't used more as our RHS on the PP
Because the Pens had the 5th best PP in the league, and scored the 2nd most PP goals.


Also, TK can't/doesn't pass, and his first, second, and third offensive instinct is to shoot from anywhere. He would be a PP liability.


Last edited by Ziggyjoe21: 11-02-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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11-02-2012, 10:38 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
Because the Pens had the 5th best PP in the league, and scored the 2nd most PP goals.


Also, TK can't/doesn't pass, and his first, second, and third offensive instinct is to shoot from anywhere. He would be a PP liability.
When he's on the left side he's a completely different player. He actually keeps his head up to look for someone to pass to.

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11-03-2012, 06:36 AM
  #47
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When he's on the left side he's a completely different player. He actually keeps his head up to look for someone to pass to.
1. Even if he looks to pass, he's not good at it.
2. I don't really agree that he does that.
3. Putting him into a shooting position is silly because he would be the worst shooter on the powerplay.
4. Putting him in a passing position is silly because he would be far and away the worst passer on the powerplay.
5. Putting him in a position where he can choose to do either is silly because he might be the worst decision maker on the team.

I like TK for his 3rd line position. I seriously do. I don't love him, but he is solid there. His skill set simply does not lend to playing on the top powerplay. Put him over there as the shooter on the second powerplay unit. Tell him his job is simply to get pucks on net. He can do that. But when the other options on his line are 4 all stars or Kunitz, I really don't see a spot for him. Give me Neal or Kunitz out there over him 100% of the time; handedness be damned.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 11-03-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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11-03-2012, 09:00 AM
  #48
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1. Even if he looks to pass, he's not good at it.
2. I don't really agree that he does that.
3. Putting him into a shooting position is silly because he would be the worst shooter on the powerplay.
4. Putting him in a passing position is silly because he would be far and away the worst passer on the powerplay.
5. Putting him in a position where he can choose to do either is silly because he might be the worst decision maker on the team.

I like TK for his 3rd line position. I seriously do. I don't love him, but he is solid there. His skill set simply does not lend to playing on the top powerplay. Put him over there as the shooter on the second powerplay unit. Tell him his job is simply to get pucks on net. He can do that. But when the other options on his line are 4 all stars or Kunitz, I really don't see a spot for him. Give me Neal or Kunitz out there over him 100% of the time; handedness be damned.

Total BS

"Kennedy is not a good passer"

This is same head in the sand attitude that affects all the "watch the game" guys. I see nothing but opinions here supported by not a single piece of data. If you actually started to bring data and results to the table, you'd find your opinion has more mileage.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...5+17+18+19+20#

For example:
Clicking on the link above shows TK ranked #8 overall last year in first assists / 60min. This isn't among the Pens, but the entire league of forwards.

Pretty hard to believe that a top 10 assist guy could be a "terrible" passer on any account. These aren't the give-me bonus 2nd assists either. He was top 10 in 1st assists/min of icetime. He is making the last pass before a goal is scored on a top 10 (NHL) level. Do you see how actually confirming your opinion with data makes that opinion turn more towards fact than just uniformed opinion? My opinion of TK is that he is generally an above average passer and that a lot of his passes also go off the goaltender to rebound shot opportunities (which are very high % shots). Granted, last year was his best year to date, but he is nearing his peak. He has generally been around top 50 in 1st assists in the NHL prior to last year.

While you are browsing the list, take a glance at all the company that TK keeps in play-making. Once again, I question what you guys are "watching" when TK hits the ice? It is quite a bit different from what I see. I would expect to see a "terrible passer" outside the top 150 on this list (ie below average), not inside the top 10.

I see TK as a great possession play-maker type that is let down sometimes by shot selection. I would love to see what he can do setting up Crosby's/Dupers shot on a consistent basis. He has the speed, agility, work ethic, and stick handling to play with them. He will have to slightly change his game to play with superior talent, but I am pretty confident he can do that.

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11-03-2012, 09:35 AM
  #49
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The TK hate is, at times, extreme and unnecessary.

People that are nitpicking his shot selection or passing abilities are missing the big picture.

He's not a skill-guy. Points wise he's a mediocre winger, but he works hard, forechecks, gets to a lot of loose pucks and wins more battles than he loses.. he's fairly paid and is a good fit for a 3rd line role. And in spurts he's shown he can keep up in a top 6 spot too, if the need arises. I've always liked him and I think it'd be harder to replace him than some might think.

in short, LEAVE TYLER ALLOOONNEE

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11-03-2012, 10:58 AM
  #50
Shady Machine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
The TK hate is, at times, extreme and unnecessary.

People that are nitpicking his shot selection or passing abilities are missing the big picture.

He's not a skill-guy. Points wise he's a mediocre winger, but he works hard, forechecks, gets to a lot of loose pucks and wins more battles than he loses.. he's fairly paid and is a good fit for a 3rd line role. And in spurts he's shown he can keep up in a top 6 spot too, if the need arises. I've always liked him and I think it'd be harder to replace him than some might think.

in short, LEAVE TYLER ALLOOONNEE
You are exactly right but the reason people are criticizing him in this thread is because the poster above you seems to think he is a great top 6 winger in the same category as Nick Backstrom.

And to you Mr. Stats guy, why haven't you addressed any of my posts? I have called out your stats and methodology several times and you just ignore it and mention your ridiculous assertions that TK is "a top ten assist man" in the league. Get a grip.

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