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Old
11-01-2012, 10:22 AM
  #26
Mad Habber
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I see a lot of Mark Streit in Diaz. Except that Diaz got to play defense in his rookie year, unlike Streit. I believe they both came over at the same age. Diaz did not look to out of place last year. He was a rookie playing with another rookie most time or with a Kaberle. Not a great situation either one. A little more time should be very beneficial. He is a smart player, like Streit was.

If we have no hockey this year, St.Denis should be passed over by Tinordi and Beaulieu. And maybe by Ellis and Nash also. We may never see him in the NHL again depending on this lockout. Over 200 players never played in the NHL again after the last lockout. Not all retired right away. A lot went to Europe or just stayed in the minors. I liked St.Denis but I don't see a lot of upside there.

We may also have seen the last of Bouillon. Markov and Kaberle still have contracts for next year, otherwise they could be in danger of not coming back either. After last season, no GM would give them the contract they received in the summer of 2011. Would they still receive contracts big enough to make them stay or would they look towards the KHL or elsewhere. Don't know. And it is irrelevant now. Barring injuries, they will be back.

I see Diaz as a third pairing D this year and maybe next year too if we don't have a season. But that's only to start the season. Where he goes from there, is a good question we may not get an answer to for a while.

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11-01-2012, 10:41 AM
  #27
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Diaz, Emelin, and St-Denis all played well.

The problem was simple - we didn't have a rock like we had in Hamrlik for the last four years. We needed someone to replace Hamrlik and unfortunately, we never get that.

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11-01-2012, 10:45 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Diaz, Emelin, and St-Denis all played well.

The problem was simple - we didn't have a rock like we had in Hamrlik for the last four years. We needed someone to replace Hamrlik and unfortunately, we never get that.
Agreed 100%

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11-01-2012, 11:01 AM
  #29
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Markov will be that rock if he is healthy and mentally up-to-speed. Emelin has a very similar upside to Hamrlik IMO. Hamrlik entered the league as an offensive d-man and over time learned to pick his spots better. He became a good two-way, shot blocking, physical presence with a good stick. Emelin is an excellent skater with good size and passing ability. His only real problem is his inability to "pick his spots" better. That means, analyzing the play a little better and stop aggressively stepping up to make the big hit. He could easily be a top four defenseman in the NHL and I think most NHL teams would agree.

In regards to Diaz, he has two things holding him back from being a top four defender. The first is his lack of size and overall bulk. The second is his lack of an NHL caliber slap shot and one timer. He has a sneaky wrist shot/snap shot, but he cant hammer it from the one timer like Streit, MAB or Souray could. He does have better playmaking abilities than MAB or Souray though. Positionally he is very good and he has an active stick, but in front of the net and in the corners he has problems. Does St. Denis really have an advantage in this regard? Maybe slightly as I would say he is more poised in the defensive zone at times. Still think Diaz makes it over St. Denis and Weber will be traded.

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11-01-2012, 11:15 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
Markov will be that rock if he is healthy and mentally up-to-speed. Emelin has a very similar upside to Hamrlik IMO. Hamrlik entered the league as an offensive d-man and over time learned to pick his spots better. He became a good two-way, shot blocking, physical presence with a good stick. Emelin is an excellent skater with good size and passing ability. His only real problem is his inability to "pick his spots" better. That means, analyzing the play a little better and stop aggressively stepping up to make the big hit. He could easily be a top four defenseman in the NHL and I think most NHL teams would agree.

In regards to Diaz, he has two things holding him back from being a top four defender. The first is his lack of size and overall bulk. The second is his lack of an NHL caliber slap shot and one timer. He has a sneaky wrist shot/snap shot, but he cant hammer it from the one timer like Streit, MAB or Souray could. He does have better playmaking abilities than MAB or Souray though. Positionally he is very good and he has an active stick, but in front of the net and in the corners he has problems. Does St. Denis really have an advantage in this regard? Maybe slightly as I would say he is more poised in the defensive zone at times. Still think Diaz makes it over St. Denis and Weber will be traded.
Diaz doesn't have a Souray/Weber/Chara calibre slapshot but to say that it isn't NHL calibre..........really?

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11-01-2012, 11:17 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
Emelin has a very similar upside to Hamrlik IMO.
Gotta disagree there. It's fun to say that Hamrlik was an "offensive defenseman" who learned how to play defense, but that's not why he was drafted 1st overall (the first of many huge differences in the relative calibre of these two guys). It wasn't his 13 points in ~50 games in the pro Czech ranks as a teenager, it was his size, hockey sense, polish, and ability in all 3 zones that worked in his favour on draft day. A guy who earns full time shifts in the NHL as an 18 year old is worlds apart from a guy who finally gets brought over at 25 "when he's ready" in terms of "upside" (which was actually more like age 23/24 for Emelin, and there was a little more behind when he finally made it over, but still).

Getting back to Diaz, I'm still as high on him now as when we got him. Maybe higher, actually. Totally see him, Tinordi, and Beaulieu being a better fight for roster spots next year than whatever Bouillon, Weber, and St. Denis would offer as competition.

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11-01-2012, 11:17 AM
  #32
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OK to clarify if you did not understand the context: Diaz does not have the type of slap shot that one timer based powerplays covet. He does have a good wrist shot. Slapper is accurate, but does not have a high velocity.

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11-01-2012, 11:20 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Gotta disagree there. It's fun to say that Hamrlik was an "offensive defenseman" who learned how to play defense, but that's not why he was drafted 1st overall (the first of many huge differences in the relative calibre of these two guys). It wasn't his 13 points in ~50 games in the pro Czech ranks as a teenager, it was his size, hockey sense, polish, and ability in all 3 zones that worked in his favour on draft day. A guy who earns full time shifts in the NHL as an 18 year old is worlds apart from a guy who finally gets brought over at 25 "when he's ready" in terms of "upside" (which was actually more like age 23/24 for Emelin, and there was a little more behind when he finally made it over, but still).
Hamrlik was in the negative plus/minus every year until he played in Edmonton. Essentially he was 25 when he started improving his play defensively and became a two-way presence. To say he was already "polished" is an overstatement.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=2125

Not saying Emelin will be as good as Hamrlik was at age 25, because he isnt even right now. But Hamrlik did have more NHL seasoning at age 25 than Emelin. Communication is the main thing preventing him from reaching that potential.

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11-01-2012, 11:28 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
Hamrlik was in the negative plus/minus every year until he played in Edmonton. Essentially he was 25 when he started improving his play defensively and became a two-way presence. To say he was already "polished" is an overstatement.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=2125
So was everyone on the expansion Lightning. You realize that Hamrlik was the first ever draft pick of the Lightning, right? Do you have any concept of, historically, how expansion teams perform against the rest of the competition in the early going?

And yes, he was absolutely polished. That's how he made the Czech World Cup team as a 19 year old (youngest on the team by 2 years), and how he got picked 1st overall in the NHL draft ~ a year earlier. Was he "done developing"? No, but why would you even try to put words like that in my mouth? Sorry, but anyone who points to the +/- of players on an expansion team as any kind of proof of defensive abilities of anyone relative to their contemporary peers has to get a clue.

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11-01-2012, 11:29 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
OK to clarify if you did not understand the context: Diaz does not have the type of slap shot that one timer based powerplays covet. He does have a good wrist shot. Slapper is accurate, but does not have a high velocity.
Nothing to do with context.......you clearly stated that he did not have an NHL calibre slapshot. You may have got carried away with hyperbole but you said what you said.

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11-01-2012, 11:31 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So was everyone on the expansion Lightning. You realize that Hamrlik was the first ever draft pick of the Lightning, right? Do you have any concept of, historically, how expansion teams perform against the rest of the competition in the early going?

And yes, he was absolutely polished. That's how he made the Czech World Cup team as a 19 year old (youngest on the team by 2 years). Was he "done developing"? No, but why would you even try to put words like that in my mouth?
It is ridiculous how many posters on these boards use a useless stat like +/- as some kind of absolute barometer about a player's defensive abilities.

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11-01-2012, 11:35 AM
  #37
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Either way, Emelin has played on nearly every Russian national team for several years now. Last World Championship he had a very good tournament. I think it is not unrealistic to argue he has potential as top four NHL rearguard with improved communication skills.

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11-01-2012, 11:44 AM
  #38
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Either way, Emelin has played on nearly every Russian national team for several years now. Last World Championship he had a very good tournament. I think it is not unrealistic to argue he has potential as top four NHL rearguard with improved communication skills.
Carey Price loves Emelin's game so I am inclined to agree with your assessment of him. Before he hurt his shoulder last season he was really becoming a force and was starting to gain confidence in his offensive game.

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11-01-2012, 11:50 AM
  #39
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[QUOTE=Rise from the Ashes;55439027]Hamrlik was in the negative plus/minus every year until he played in Edmonton. Essentially he was 25 when he started improving his play defensively and became a two-way presence. To say he was already "polished" is an overstatement.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=2125

Not saying Emelin will be as good as Hamrlik was at age 25, because he isnt even right now. But Hamrlik did have more NHL seasoning at age 25 than Emelin. Communication is the main thing preventing him from reaching that potential.[/QUOTE]

I'd say Hamrlik's skillset was polished. But to use plus/minus as a gauge just isn't fair in Hamrlik's case. As another poster said he was the first player ever to wear a Lightning sweater. You don't think Hamrlik had communication issues? And better yet he had no countryman to turn to like Emelin does with Markov. Hamrlik had a team thrown on his back and spoke no English at the tender age of 18. That's a lot for a kid to handle.

Edited to add that I like both Diaz and Emelin. In fact those two plus PK give me something to look forward to when the season gets underway. I'll be interested to see how Diaz and Emelin fair in their sophomore years and how PK shakes off his sophomore year. Not that PK was bad. To be fair, he didn't have the help he needed.


Last edited by swimmer77: 11-01-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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11-01-2012, 12:07 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Gotta disagree there. It's fun to say that Hamrlik was an "offensive defenseman" who learned how to play defense, but that's not why he was drafted 1st overall (the first of many huge differences in the relative calibre of these two guys). It wasn't his 13 points in ~50 games in the pro Czech ranks as a teenager, it was his size, hockey sense, polish, and ability in all 3 zones that worked in his favour on draft day. A guy who earns full time shifts in the NHL as an 18 year old is worlds apart from a guy who finally gets brought over at 25 "when he's ready" in terms of "upside" (which was actually more like age 23/24 for Emelin, and there was a little more behind when he finally made it over, but still).

Getting back to Diaz, I'm still as high on him now as when we got him. Maybe higher, actually. Totally see him, Tinordi, and Beaulieu being a better fight for roster spots next year than whatever Bouillon, Weber, and St. Denis would offer as competition.
I gotta agree with everything here (especially the Hamrlik part) except the notion of Diaz fighting for a spot, which I don't think he needs to. He was good to very good in an overwhelming majority of games last year. I really do think he is serverely underrated on this board which I believe has mostly to do with his size rather than his play (not surprised at all with this). I think at this point in his career he already is a good bottom pairing d-man, maybe even a stable #5 d-man who can fill in a #4 role for a string of games. He's cheap and effective.

As for the Hamrlik discussion, he's an another d-man that was severely underrated here. He wasn't an offensive dynamo, but was he ever a rock. The perfect #3 d-man to support Markov in a secondary role. The guy ate up minutes, but yet was always used as a scapegoat. I remember before the last year's season started that you, me, overlords, habsjunkie2 and KrissE all kept saying that the season would be tough if we didn't re-sign Hamrlik or get at least a Hamrlik type replacement. It's a shame (but at the same time it is positive I guess considering we ended up with Galchenyuk and high enough in the draft to snag prospects which overlooked like Collberg and Bozon). With the offensive depth the team had to start the season and had they had a solid D core waiting for Markov to come back, I still think the team could have done a little damage with a 5th or 6th place finish. Whatever, it has passed.

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11-01-2012, 12:08 PM
  #41
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Hamrlik had a team thrown on his back and spoke no English at the tender age of 18. That's a lot for a kid to handle.
That's a lot to throw on a 1st overall draft pick on a new team, especially without any countrymen NOR a captain for the first 3 seasons of the franchise's history. But this guy was in the top 10 for NHL defenseman scoring on an expansion team by age 21/22 (between Zubov and Al MacInnis), so how did he pop up in here again?

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11-01-2012, 12:16 PM
  #42
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I gotta agree with everything here (especially the Hamrlik part) except the notion of Diaz fighting for a spot.
You mean, the "fighting" part, or who he'd be "fighting" with? I pencil him into the top 6 moving forward, but it's rediculous to assume his spot would still be guaranteed if the Habs made even just one "significant" move to bolster the blueline. And as soon as a year or two down the line, he is going to be competing against the development curve of a few players that may prove to be even higher end talents. Things like the new structure of the cap, salaries, and free agency will also figure into any evaluation, obviously.

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11-01-2012, 01:08 PM
  #43
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I gotta agree with everything here (especially the Hamrlik part) except the notion of Diaz fighting for a spot, which I don't think he needs to. He was good to very good in an overwhelming majority of games last year. I really do think he is serverely underrated on this board which I believe has mostly to do with his size rather than his play (not surprised at all with this). I think at this point in his career he already is a good bottom pairing d-man, maybe even a stable #5 d-man who can fill in a #4 role for a string of games. He's cheap and effective.

As for the Hamrlik discussion, he's an another d-man that was severely underrated here. He wasn't an offensive dynamo, but was he ever a rock. The perfect #3 d-man to support Markov in a secondary role. The guy ate up minutes, but yet was always used as a scapegoat. I remember before the last year's season started that you, me, overlords, habsjunkie2 and KrissE all kept saying that the season would be tough if we didn't re-sign Hamrlik or get at least a Hamrlik type replacement. It's a shame (but at the same time it is positive I guess considering we ended up with Galchenyuk and high enough in the draft to snag prospects which overlooked like Collberg and Bozon). With the offensive depth the team had to start the season and had they had a solid D core waiting for Markov to come back, I still think the team could have done a little damage with a 5th or 6th place finish. Whatever, it has passed.


Aye. We need another minute eater.

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11-01-2012, 02:02 PM
  #44
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Aye. We need another minute eater.
Yup. We'll end up in the same place as last season without one.

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11-01-2012, 04:58 PM
  #45
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Ouellet is a slow footed PP specialist, not a guy I'd give up much for.
That's Michel Ouellet, not Xavier.

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11-01-2012, 05:03 PM
  #46
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Aye. We need another minute eater.
More importantly, a minute eater that the coach feels confident sending out in any situation, although I suppose that's already somewhat implied.

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11-01-2012, 05:05 PM
  #47
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Yup. We'll end up in the same place as last season without one.
Do we really?

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Kaberle-Bouillon
Diaz

Where does you "minute eater" actually play? We have kids coming over the next 5 years, we don't need to waste our cap space on defensmens IMO. The Joker card next year for me is Kaberle, who will go from coming to camp out of shape to playing for Michel Therrien, he should be twice as better this next season.

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11-01-2012, 05:30 PM
  #48
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Do we really?

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Kaberle-Bouillon
Diaz

Where does you "minute eater" actually play? We have kids coming over the next 5 years, we don't need to waste our cap space on defensmens IMO. The Joker card next year for me is Kaberle, who will go from coming to camp out of shape to playing for Michel Therrien, he should be twice as better this next season.
The no-injury approximation is never valid when describing Habs dmen.

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11-01-2012, 05:39 PM
  #49
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That's a lot to throw on a 1st overall draft pick on a new team, especially without any countrymen NOR a captain for the first 3 seasons of the franchise's history. But this guy was in the top 10 for NHL defenseman scoring on an expansion team by age 21/22 (between Zubov and Al MacInnis), so how did he pop up in here again?
I realize this has nothing to do with Diaz,but when did MacLean's become an Encyclopedia Gigantica?Further how do I get a set on the Leaf's?

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11-01-2012, 06:47 PM
  #50
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Do we really?

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Kaberle-Bouillon
Diaz

Where does you "minute eater" actually play? We have kids coming over the next 5 years, we don't need to waste our cap space on defensmens IMO. The Joker card next year for me is Kaberle, who will go from coming to camp out of shape to playing for Michel Therrien, he should be twice as better this next season.
Markov - Minute Eater
Gorges - Subban
Kaberle- Emelin
Diaz over Boullion I hope

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