Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
That doesn't seem like a very accurate description of Carle's game to me.
Carle was never offensive enough to be a true offensive defenseman. (I truly believe that there are posters here who could match his wrist shot). However he was a reliable positional defender (if turnover prone). He was never physically imposing, but his defensive play was never really the weakest part of his game--his decision-making was.
That said, I'm not sure Carle is the best measure of the kind of player Gardiner projects to be, right?
That's why I said that Gardiner is like Carle now. I'm sure he'll be better than Carle in the future, but I wouldn't be willing to part with Couturier unless the deal filled the Flyers need of a proven #1 defenseman.
Last edited by spiny norman: 11-01-2012 at 09:01 PM.
Reason: fixed [/B][/QUOTE]
Again, both fanbases got it wrong for the most part. I'm still not sure what your point is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya
That doesn't seem like a very accurate description of Carle's game to me.
Carle was never offensive enough to be a true offensive defenseman. (I truly believe that there are posters here who could match his wrist shot). However he was a reliable positional defender (if turnover prone). He was never physically imposing, but his defensive play was never really the weakest part of his game--his decision-making was.
That said, I'm not sure Carle is the best measure of the kind of player Gardiner projects to be, right?
That's why I said that Gardiner is like Carle now. I'm sure he'll be better than Carle in the future, but I wouldn't be willing to part with Couturier unless the deal filled the Flyers need of a proven #1 defenseman.
But he's not like Carle now. Carle's strong suit is his positional defensive play. Gardiner's strength is at the other end of the ice (as well as his skating, etc.). I don't see the comparison, really. I guess they have some similar strengths (skating) and deficiencies (lack of physicality), but you could say that about a lot of players...
Anyway, I think we agree, ultimately, that it wouldn't be in the Flyers interest to pull the trigger on the deal.
Last edited by spiny norman: 11-01-2012 at 09:02 PM.
Reason: fixed [/B][/QUOTE]
Kaberle pre-injury is fairly similar in playing style to Gardiner.
That's not to say Gardiner will be quite as gifted offensively (Kaberle hit 67 points one season) nor that he's never going to be better than Kaberle was defensively (about average), just that at this moment, given the information we have, that's a reasonably close projection.
Smooth skating savvy D with good puck skills and an ability to read plays who isn't overly physical.
Kaberle was much more passive as a player.
He is more like Bryan Berard in my mind (I mentioned that earlier in this thread)
I'm sure Gardiner does have #1 D potential, but right now that's all it is. He's just like Matt Carle right now, strong offensivly, weak on defense. So this doesn't meet the Flyers needs at all. IMO Couturier will only be moved in a package for a proven #1 d-man.
I'm sure Couturier does have #1 C potential, but right now that's all it is. He's just like David Steckel right now, strong defensively, weak on offense. So this doesn't meet the Leafs needs at all. IMO Gardiner will only be moved in a package for a proven #1 c-man.
I'm sure Couturier does have #1 C potential, but right now that's all it is. He's just like David Steckel right now, strong defensively, weak on offense. So this doesn't meet the Leafs needs at all. IMO Gardiner will only be moved in a package for a proven #1 c-man.
Really?
Matt Carle is a bona fide top-4 defenseman (really a #2-3), who performed well (albiet along-side a Hall of Famer) on the Flyers top-pairing through much of the past three seasons.
Dave Steckel is a 4th line face-off specialist who has never topped 20 points in his NHL career.
Your post is not the flip side of the one you were quoting for a very simple reason:
Carle > Gardiner
Couturier < Steckel
I don't think Carle is the appropriate player-type for Gardiner, at least it makes sense to suggest that he might eventually develop into that caliber of player (and perhaps sooner rather than later). You're comparing Couturier (three years younger than Gardiner) to a player who is patently inferior now as well as in the future.
I don't understand how some people can be so down on this? It is potential for potential.
I love Cooter and all but come on he has the "potential" to become a #1C two play center similar to Mike Richards he also has the chance to not develop his offensive game and take on a roll more of like Jared Stoll.
Similar to Jake Gardiner he has the "potential" to continue to develop and become that #1 offensive D man like say Green but he could also just become a player like JML.
Value Wise I say it is there. Also to Philly fans if Cooter does become a #1C what then happens to Brayden Schenn and Giroux?
The majority of Leaf fans said either one for one or Schenn + a 2nd, Flyers fans either said it won't happen, or had to be Schenn + 1st or top prospect. Short memory I see!
False.
Most said it would be Schenn+ rather then straight up, but it absolutely was not a 1st or a top prospect. That's just revisionist history.
I don't understand how some people can be so down on this? It is potential for potential.
I love Cooter and all but come on he has the "potential" to become a #1C two play center similar to Mike Richards he also has the chance to not develop his offensive game and take on a roll more of like Jared Stoll.
Similar to Jake Gardiner he has the "potential" to continue to develop and become that #1 offensive D man like say Green but he could also just become a player like JML.
Value Wise I say it is there. Also to Philly fans if Cooter does become a #1C what then happens to Brayden Schenn and Giroux?
To the last, I think most Flyers believe Schenn will be moved to wing, in the event everyone develops as planned. It would simply not make sense to move Giroux, and Schenn's skill-set is more suited to the outside than Couturier's. Either way, it is a nice problem to have.
To answer your broader question, I think most Flyers fans also believe that Gardiner, right now, is closer to his ceiling than Couturier, by virtue of his three years of development. When you add that Couturier was by far the more heralded prospect--at one point, before his illness and subsequent draf-year struggles, in the running to be 1st overall, it is difficult for them to see the two players as holding similar potential / value. Perhaps that's unfair to Gardiner, since defenseman do generally take longer to develop, but I suspect that has a lot to deal with it.
I don't understand how some people can be so down on this? It is potential for potential.
I love Cooter and all but come on he has the "potential" to become a #1C two play center similar to Mike Richards he also has the chance to not develop his offensive game and take on a roll more of like Jared Stoll.
Similar to Jake Gardiner he has the "potential" to continue to develop and become that #1 offensive D man like say Green but he could also just become a player like JML.
Value Wise I say it is there. Also to Philly fans if Cooter does become a #1C what then happens to Brayden Schenn and Giroux?
Except Couterier is 3 or 4 years younger.
Flyers decline easily. Couterier has franchise top-6 center written all over him. Flyers (a playoff team) relied heavily on the kid, in an important role, shutdown opposing top lines. And he excelled, all at the tender age of 18. Kid will be a stud.
MacArthur, a pending UFA, is worth very little if the season returns and nothing if it does not, not a good addition in a proposal
Leafs feel the polar opposite. Would only deal Gardiner for a prospect with #1C potential and I personally don't see the offence in couturier for him to warrant being a true number 1, however he'd look great between Kessel and Lupul.
When I read the thread title, I promised myself I wouldn't post & get involved. But this line bolded here..
What is it with HFboard posters and Couturiers offence? Yes he is a defensive god, but he's really dynamic offensively too!
If he had kessel + lupul for Linemates he'd score a ton.
Have you watched him play a lot? He's not a dangler usually, but he snipes and passes as good as anyone.
What is it hfboards?? Huberdeau will be an offensive force, but Couturier can't? ********!
"I wouldn't trade JVR for Schenn if they threw in their first this year too. Thats how much I think this trade is uneven"
"Short answer. No.
Long answer. Hell No"
"hell no. leafs fans crack me up"
"A few reasons why this deal wouldn't be very smart.
-JVR has higher value than Schenn.
-There are better options out there if we are dealing JVR.(Suter/Weber)
-Wouldn't look very good if we deal another player just after signing him to a long deal.
-I'd imagine Giroux wouldn't be too excited about signing a long term deal after watching Richards/Carter/JVR all get traded."
"No. Jesus **** no."
"Schenn+kadri...let's talk."
"really? I think I might be willing to part ways with JVR for L. Schenn and a 1st round pick. But I agree with the majority of people on here saying that we should include him in a deal for Suter instead. However if that falls through, Schenn + 1st isn't bad."
"Schenn does not have a top end to justify this one"
Couturier will be a franchise #1C and Gardiner will peak at a #3D
/thread
But really, I wouldn't trade Gardiner for Couturier straight up not because of the value but because we don't need another future #2C. we have enough of those. If Gardiner is getting traded IT WILL BE FOR A #1C. I am not saying he will fetch that all by himself unless he continued to get better after this season.
I would however love Couturier if we could get him. I love the type of player he is
"I wouldn't trade JVR for Schenn if they threw in their first this year too. Thats how much I think this trade is uneven"
"Short answer. No.
Long answer. Hell No"
"hell no. leafs fans crack me up"
"A few reasons why this deal wouldn't be very smart.
-JVR has higher value than Schenn.
-There are better options out there if we are dealing JVR.(Suter/Weber)
-Wouldn't look very good if we deal another player just after signing him to a long deal.
-I'd imagine Giroux wouldn't be too excited about signing a long term deal after watching Richards/Carter/JVR all get traded."
"No. Jesus **** no."
"Schenn+kadri...let's talk."
"really? I think I might be willing to part ways with JVR for L. Schenn and a 1st round pick. But I agree with the majority of people on here saying that we should include him in a deal for Suter instead. However if that falls through, Schenn + 1st isn't bad."
"Schenn does not have a top end to justify this one"
You might check out some of the threads I linked on the previous page. There was one TML poster who suggested that he might be willing to part with Matt Frattin for JVR.
When I read the thread title, I promised myself I wouldn't post & get involved. But this line bolded here..
What is it with HFboard posters and Couturiers offence? Yes he is a defensive god, but he's really dynamic offensively too!
If he had kessel + lupul for Linemates he'd score a ton.
Have you watched him play a lot? He's not a dangler usually, but he snipes and passes as good as anyone.
What is it hfboards?? Huberdeau will be an offensive force, but Couturier can't? ********!
(Not directed specifically at you buddy)
Sarcasm in response to the person I quoted who stated Gardiner didn't have the defensive game to be a number 1.
Value Wise I say it is there. Also to Philly fans if Cooter does become a #1C what then happens to Brayden Schenn and Giroux?
Then it becomes a great problem to have. As others have pointed out, Schenn will probably be moved to the wing, but it's very possible that Giroux could also be moved back to the wing to accomodate a move of Couturier being the number one center.
It's funny how some people have Couturier being ear marked as a third line center and "stuck" behind Schenn and Giroux, but what people fail to realize is that neither Schenn or Giroux made their NHL clubs as 18 year olds. So, the Flyers did the right thing by bringing along Couturier the way they did. At times, it was infuriating because he was the best player on the team and Laviolette still fed him table scraps for ice time, but the same can be said with the way Boston handled Joe Thornton in his rookie year and we all know how well Boston did in developing big Joe. I expect the same thing with Couturier in terms of development.
As for Jake Gardiner, I have to admit I'm a big fan. People can say otherwise about his "soft" minutes and his defensive game, but he's going to be a top two guy within 2 years. He's just a silky smooth guy and when he fills out, he'll be a 6'2, 210 pound defenseman who plays the transition game so well. He's just so smart. Honestly, he reminds me of how Eric Desjardins played the game. People said the same about Desjardins in that he wasn't physical enough and stuff like that. I'll take a smart player over a physical player any day.
Okay this is childish. Both leafs and flyers need to put their prospects back in there pants and just make the clean and fair statement. Neither side wants to Give up and shouldnot give up both of their best respective prospects due to their tremendous value to both teams!
Last edited by RealisticLeaf55: 11-01-2012 at 04:33 PM.
Reason: grammatic fail
I like Gardiner. But he's got a lot to prove at least on the defensive side of the puck. Two things:
1 - He was 21 last season. Couturier was 18
2 - His Corsi QoC was -0.243 and 56% of his starts were in the offensive zone. He wasn't used against the opponents top players. He played sheltered minutes (defensively). Couturier? Corsi QoC of 0.174 and only 40.3% of his starts were in the offensive zone. That shows a TON of trust in an 18 year old rookie.
Couturier IS currently valued more. Gardiner is also a valuable piece, was probably the best rookie defenceman last season. But I still put Couturier ahead.
1. Gardiner is a defenseman (and was in university before this past year) playing top minutes. Couturier is a forward playing 3rd line minutes.
2. Corsi is flawed on its own, and the difference between them is negligible. Offensive zone starts means diddly squat. I'm not sure why people use that as an argument. Gardiner was used against top players many times, and played in all situations at all times.
Given the TOI discrepancies, Gardiner actually probably played more against top opposing players than Couturier.
Gardiner had a better rookie season in essentially every way. Gardiner is more valuable. It's that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya
No one really thought it would happen after months of speculation passed, and at the end of the day, both of the two principle fan bases were largely wrong--in gauging the value or in claiming their own side's lack of interest.
What a short memory you have. Leaf fans were laughed at for proposing Schenn for JVR. And look what happened.
Why do the leafs fans always go after our players? Once Jeff Carter was gone I thought that would be the end of it. Anyway to answer the 1st post. My answer is no. The Flyers will not move Sean for that package. If he is moved it will be with another team for a better deal. Bye.
Toronto gets a potential 1st line two way center to play with kessel and lupul while Philadelphia gets a Top 4 PMD with upside and a servicable second line LW to replace Couturier. Since Matt Carle left for Tampa Bay, Philadelphia needs a smooth skating PMD to replace him, and this fulfills both team's organizational needs.
Opinions?
I say no deal because I don't want Toronto give up Gardiner and I have some freinds who are Philadelphia fans that don't them to give up Couturier.
He is more like Bryan Berard in my mind (I mentioned that earlier in this thread)
Your right, he is a bit like Berard. We went through a lot of growing pains with him and just when he was starting to pay off... Oh, he was going to be good.
Young Flyer forward for a young leaf D just happened... it isn't going to happen again this soon
i agree. irrespective of value, i think with where philly is at right now they need someone a lot more experienced who can make an impact right away. weber would have been ideal but im sure there are a few defenseman out there who would make a better impact then gardiner.
i dont really understand the argument that couturier is stuck behind giroux, schenn, and briere either. briere is 35 years old, couturier is 19. philly could let couturier refine his defensive game on the 3rd line for 2 years until briere contract is up and he is 37. also, it isnt completely insane to think schenn could possibly be converted to a winger
Your right, he is a bit like Berard. We went through a lot of growing pains with him and just when he was starting to pay off... Oh, he was going to be good.
I disagree with the Berard comparo. He's more like Kaberle imho, silky smooth and super poised, ice running through his veins...yet not quite as silky smooth as Kabs was.
