Bobby Clarke definitely is in the mix for the top of this list but the 19 ESGA in 75 has to be taken in context as a statistical fluke. Reggie Leach was on for only 22 ESGA that year as well.
Part of it is playing with Clarke but it's also about the flyers 5-5 as well.
When I have the time I might do a more detailed look at it, or someone else can, but Clarke's career stats probably look pretty good in terms of ESGA but I'm betting that Craig Ramsay do as well and if we do a modified stat, sorta like the adjusted plus/minus stat floating around I'm not sure how much the numbers are going to tell us about defensive forwards.
The two names that immediately jumped into my head were Bob Gainey (the popular choice) and Guy Carbonneau. I loved watching Carbo play without the puck. One of the first players I remember really paying attention to as a kid in terms of positioning, movement, etc.
Some other good choices as well in Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke, Craig Ramsay, Henri Richard, Claude Provost, Dave Keon.
Child of the seventies and beyond except for what I read so the list goes something like this:
Clarke
Gainey
Carboneau
Ramsay
Keon...Yeah I saw him at the bitter end.
Marcotte
Luce
Hm to Nighbor Provost Marty Pavelich whose defensive expolits were only in books for me.
Child of the seventies and beyond except for what I read so the list goes something like this:
Clarke
Gainey
Carboneau
Ramsay
Keon...Yeah I saw him at the bitter end.
Marcotte
Luce
Hm to Nighbor Provost Marty Pavelich whose defensive expolits were only in books for me.
I would have Peca right there with Lehtinen in terms of defense. Lehtinen won more Selkes because he was a better goal scorer (it's not supposed to matter, but we all know it does). I think Peca was the best combo of leadership and shutdown play since Carbonneau.
I'd probably have both Peca and Lehtinen in a second tier with about 10 or so other names, just under the 4 names I gave above.
Lehtinen was far above Peca. Peca was among the best for about two years. Lehtinen was among the league's elite defensive forwards for about a decade.
John Madden belongs in this discussion.
If you're bringing up Peca, you might as well add in Craig Conroy, Dallas Drake, Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mike Richards, Manny Malhotra, David Backes, Dirk Graham, Troy Murray, Jari Kurri, Doug Jarvis, Steve Kasper, Joel Otto, Ron Francis, Doug Gilmour, Kirk Muller, Vincent Damphousse, Kris Draper, Kirk Maltby, Craig MacTavish, and Mike Krushelnyski. To name a few.
Lehtinen was far above Peca. Peca was among the best for about two years. Lehtinen was among the league's elite defensive forwards for about a decade.
John Madden belongs in this discussion.
If you're bringing up Peca, you might as well add in Craig Conroy, Dallas Drake, Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mike Richards, Manny Malhotra, David Backes, Dirk Graham, Troy Murray, Jari Kurri, Doug Jarvis, Steve Kasper, Joel Otto, Ron Francis, Doug Gilmour, Kirk Muller, Vincent Damphousse, Kris Draper, Kirk Maltby, Craig MacTavish, and Mike Krushelnyski. To name a few.
For comparison, here is Lehtinen's: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 6, 6
Lehtinen's is definitely better, but they aren't all that far apart. I'd be surprised if any of those guys you listed had a better record than Peca, and most probably aren't close at all.
And, this is with Peca suffering two major injuries, losing one season to a holdout and another, albeit a past-prime one (though he was a solid complimentary piece in Edmonton's Cup run), to the lockout.
I'm aware I came in asking about how Peca stacked up to the rest of the names discussed, but I know enough to realize that list is ridiculous.
Also, I remember at least one person arguing a year+ or so ago that the only thing separating Ramsay and Gainey was the teams they played on. Fringe opinion, or something defensible by at least some evaluations?
How can you even begin to compare the defensive prowess of a winger to a center? They do very different things, and the center has more defensive responsibility at even strength.
How can you even begin to compare the defensive prowess of a winger to a center? They do very different things, and the center has more defensive responsibility at even strength.
how dominant they are compared to other players at their positions.
Look at Gainey's plus and minus he had one good playoff why is he in the hall of fame.His stats are terrible yes he was a good leader played with heart played hurt but in the hall of fame?
The best I've seen is Bob Gainey. He had the combination of speed, strength and dogged determination that made him unique. The Russian coach called him the best two way player in the world which is very high praise.
Haven't read every post in this thread but haven't noticed Joel Otto or Doug Jarvis yet......seems kind of silly to leave these guys out. Best I have ever seen are Gainey and Carbonneau. According to the oldtimers I know, Provost was hands down the best of his generation.
I like Datsyuk alot also but I don't feel that he is as effective defensively in the post season as he is in the regular season.....just my opinion.
Sergei Fedorov. The only player ever to win Selke and Hart in one season.
Honorable mentions go to Trottier, Clarke, Gainey, Carbonneau, and Yzerman.
Clarke didn't have Lidstrom either. The greatest defensive players are great regardless of who they play/played with, they're catalysts, they cause their linemates to appear better defensively not the opposite. And had the Selke been around in in Clarke's peak he'd probably have multiple Hart/Selke seasons. Fedorov's season, while amazing also came when Gretzky was past his prime and Lemieux missed most of the season. Gilmour had a simlar season the year before, he just also had Lemieux scoring at a Godly rate to contend with.
Last edited by Stansfield*: 11-01-2012 at 04:10 PM.
How dominant can a winger be on the defensive side of the puck? Cover his point man and backcheck?
The variation in defensive prowess among wingers is much lower than centers.
many people consider Bob Gainey to be the most dominant defensive forward of all-time, and Craig Ramsay played at the same time and had superior defensive stats on a lesser team, both at ES and on the PK. Both seriously in the conversation for best defensive forward ever. Both LWs. Neither just "covered his point man and backchecked".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi
in your estimation, how did Bill Barber and Reggie Leach make Bobby Clarke?
I'd sooner accept Zetterberg in this category than Datsyuk, but that's a whole other subject than "Best Defensive Forward Ever".
in your estimation, how did Bill Barber and Reggie Leach make Bobby Clarke?
