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Old
11-01-2012, 08:50 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post

And why on earth does Vancouver do this?
No reason at all, i am just trying to find how much it would take for Detroit fans to accept Luongo contract.

figure out the gap between both fans base offer.

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11-01-2012, 08:52 AM
  #27
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Luongo no doubt is a significant upgrade over Howard. Howard has had a couple of good seasons playing on well managed team. Luongo's career numbers will far exceed any that Howard will ever put up and if you ask almost any hockey analyst they will agree. I can understand hesitation due to contract concerns. Luongo is a top 10 goalie while Howard one may argue is top 15-20.

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11-01-2012, 11:02 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Here is why:

To Vancouver: Howard + 2nd
To Detroit: Luongo, Edler, 1st

Would it convince Detroit fans ?
It would. On the other hand it would not convince Vancouver fans.

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11-01-2012, 11:17 AM
  #29
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Yeah...I think everyone nailed this. It's a trade that could work if Detroit has an offer on Howard, but ultimately they do not. Both teams say no, but value isn't too crazy off.

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Old
11-01-2012, 11:33 AM
  #30
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But you can have Abdelkader for ANYTHING!!!

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:08 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Luongo no doubt is a significant upgrade over Howard. Howard has had a couple of good seasons playing on well managed team. Luongo's career numbers will far exceed any that Howard will ever put up and if you ask almost any hockey analyst they will agree. I can understand hesitation due to contract concerns. Luongo is a top 10 goalie while Howard one may argue is top 15-20.
May I ask what team has Loungo played on in the same peroid..? Ah yes the Vancouver Canucks who have won back to back Presidents' Trophy (that's the best team in the regular season in case you didn't know), if you're going to say Howard is lower in the goalie Totem pole because of his team than Loungo surely has to be further down as well.

I would also argue that the wings would only move Howard for Loungo if Edler or something of similar overpayment was coming back to them. While Loungo will more than likely have a better career than Howard I don't care about what he did 10 years ago, or what he did 5 years ago. The truth is they have been almost identical stat wise the past 3 years, if it hadn't been for a midseason injury in which Howard rushed back from, he would have posted Vezina caliber numbers. With Howard being 5 years younger I don't think it's hard to see why it would take an overpayment for the wings to trade the better goalie while taking on a much worse contract.


2011-12 NHL 55 31 14 8 3162 127 1577 2.41 .919 5
2010-11 NHL 60 38 15 7 3590 126 1753 2.11 .928 4
2009-10 NHL 68 40 22 4 3899 167 1915 2.57 .913 4


2011-12 NHL 57 35 17 4 3360 119 1496 2.13 .920 6
2010-11 NHL 63 37 17 5 3615 168 1830 2.79 .908 2
2009-10 NHL 63 37 15 10 3740 141 1849 2.26 .924 3

Can you tell which goalie is which? Can you really tell that one is a top 10 goalie yet the other is only a top 15, or 20 goalie? Yes Howard had that down year in 10-11 but he absolutely stood on his head during the wings injury riddled months and unless you saw him play you don't know he kept us in games we didn't even belong in. Bringing playoffs into the picture we can see that Howard is a lot less volatile than Loungo but Howard has less of a sample size so it's pretty much a wash.

All in all while Loungo is certainly worth a solid package his best days are behind him, you almost certainly won't be getting anything of value from the Wings for him.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
May I ask what team has Loungo played on in the same peroid..? Ah yes the Vancouver Canucks who have won back to back Presidents' Trophy (that's the best team in the regular season in case you didn't know), if you're going to say Howard is lower in the goalie Totem pole because of his team than Loungo surely has to be further down as well.

I would also argue that the wings would only move Howard for Loungo if Edler or something of similar overpayment was coming back to them. While Loungo will more than likely have a better career than Howard I don't care about what he did 10 years ago, or what he did 5 years ago. The truth is they have been almost identical stat wise the past 3 years, if it hadn't been for a midseason injury in which Howard rushed back from, he would have posted Vezina caliber numbers. With Howard being 5 years younger I don't think it's hard to see why it would take an overpayment for the wings to trade the better goalie while taking on a much worse contract.


2011-12 NHL 55 31 14 8 3162 127 1577 2.41 .919 5
2010-11 NHL 60 38 15 7 3590 126 1753 2.11 .928 4
2009-10 NHL 68 40 22 4 3899 167 1915 2.57 .913 4


2011-12 NHL 57 35 17 4 3360 119 1496 2.13 .920 6
2010-11 NHL 63 37 17 5 3615 168 1830 2.79 .908 2
2009-10 NHL 63 37 15 10 3740 141 1849 2.26 .924 3

Can you tell which goalie is which? Can you really tell that one is a top 10 goalie yet the other is only a top 15, or 20 goalie? Yes Howard had that down year in 10-11 but he absolutely stood on his head during the wings injury riddled months and unless you saw him play you don't know he kept us in games we didn't even belong in. Bringing playoffs into the picture we can see that Howard is a lot less volatile than Loungo but Howard has less of a sample size so it's pretty much a wash.

All in all while Loungo is certainly worth a solid package his best days are behind him, you almost certainly won't be getting anything of value from the Wings for him.
I didnt do the whole match (i could do it later if i have the time)

But the difference between having a Luongo and a Howard, according to the past 3 years is about 3-4 less goals allowed per season (if they play around 65 games) to the advantage of Luongo.

I will let you judge if the bigger cap it and the lost of asset to acquire Luongo worth the 3-4 goal difference.


Last edited by palindrom: 11-01-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old
11-01-2012, 12:27 PM
  #33
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But you can have Abdelkader for ANYTHING!!!
Alright, I'll just give you my 7th round draft pick...

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11-01-2012, 12:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Luongo no doubt is a significant upgrade over Howard. Howard has had a couple of good seasons playing on well managed team. Luongo's career numbers will far exceed any that Howard will ever put up and if you ask almost any hockey analyst they will agree. I can understand hesitation due to contract concerns. Luongo is a top 10 goalie while Howard one may argue is top 15-20.
Just saying going as a career average:

Luongo - .919 SV%, 2.52 GAA
Howard - .917 SV%, 2.42 GAA

Howard is 27 and likely going to slightly improve and/or maintain his current numbers
Luongo is 33 and likely to slowly decline over the next few years.

Howard makes a very reasonable $2.25M this year
Luongo has a cap hit of around $5.3M until he is 42 I believe?

Why would Detroit be adding to make this deal happen as opposed to Vancouver?

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
To the Red Wings: Luongo, Maholtra
To the Canucks: Franzen, Sproul, Detroit's 2013 third round pick
I don't want either Canuck player and I am not in the blind hatred group of Wings fans with Franzen so I don't want to give up either player the Wings are offering there.

Howard is a very good goalie, this isn't even really an upgrade and marginal if it is one. By the way Detroit and Luongo is one of the worst matchups in history. Detroit isn't even nice to Osgood and he has hall of fame numbers and won the Wings cups. I know Canadian fans think they have the sole claim to tough markets, but that would be a nightmare for him.

The Wings are only moving Franzen for a top 6 forward or top two d-man. Only times we have heard his name trotted out were for Rick Nash and Keith Yandle. They wouldn't even do it for JayBo. I realize they might add something to Franzen, it might even be Sproul though I doubt it, because they would rather trade from the forward prospects. However these players listed might be a starting point while dropping the pick for Edler.

Detroit and Vancouver don't make for great trade partners. The Wings are looking for D or top 6 and what the Canucks have is nice but they cannot trade any of it.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
May I ask what team has Loungo played on in the same peroid..? Ah yes the Vancouver Canucks who have won back to back Presidents' Trophy (that's the best team in the regular season in case you didn't know), if you're going to say Howard is lower in the goalie Totem pole because of his team than Loungo surely has to be further down as well.

I would also argue that the wings would only move Howard for Loungo if Edler or something of similar overpayment was coming back to them. While Loungo will more than likely have a better career than Howard I don't care about what he did 10 years ago, or what he did 5 years ago. The truth is they have been almost identical stat wise the past 3 years, if it hadn't been for a midseason injury in which Howard rushed back from, he would have posted Vezina caliber numbers. With Howard being 5 years younger I don't think it's hard to see why it would take an overpayment for the wings to trade the better goalie while taking on a much worse contract.


2011-12 NHL 55 31 14 8 3162 127 1577 2.41 .919 5
2010-11 NHL 60 38 15 7 3590 126 1753 2.11 .928 4
2009-10 NHL 68 40 22 4 3899 167 1915 2.57 .913 4


2011-12 NHL 57 35 17 4 3360 119 1496 2.13 .920 6
2010-11 NHL 63 37 17 5 3615 168 1830 2.79 .908 2
2009-10 NHL 63 37 15 10 3740 141 1849 2.26 .924 3

Can you tell which goalie is which? Can you really tell that one is a top 10 goalie yet the other is only a top 15, or 20 goalie? Yes Howard had that down year in 10-11 but he absolutely stood on his head during the wings injury riddled months and unless you saw him play you don't know he kept us in games we didn't even belong in. Bringing playoffs into the picture we can see that Howard is a lot less volatile than Loungo but Howard has less of a sample size so it's pretty much a wash.

All in all while Loungo is certainly worth a solid package his best days are behind him, you almost certainly won't be getting anything of value from the Wings for him.
May I ask: Is Roberto Luongo a part of the Canucks? Was he not the starting goalie when both of those President's Trophies (why the condescending tone when describing it?) were won? Did he have a role in winning it?

So we have to add to a top goalie with a top dman in Edler Sorry but Luongo's value isn't THAT bad & if Edler was added you would be adding back too.

Also I can tell which goalie is which, Luongo is the one who doesn't put up a save % under .910 & hasn't put up below .910 sv% in a decade.

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:03 PM
  #37
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May I ask: Is Roberto Luongo a part of the Canucks? Was he not the starting goalie when both of those President's Trophies (why the condescending tone when describing it?) were won? Did he have a role in winning it?

So we have to add to a top goalie with a top dman in Edler Sorry but Luongo's value isn't THAT bad & if Edler was added you would be adding back too.

Also I can tell which goalie is which, Luongo is the one who doesn't put up a save % under .910 & hasn't put up below .910 sv% in a decade.
He also is the guy with worse numbers in two of the last three years and significant baggage even if we can dump the retirement contract back on you at the end. Something would go back the other way for Edler, just not something you will think is awesome. The Wings don't need Luongo unless they lockout all year and Howard walks in free agency. That is the only way he makes sense.

Luongo is better than a lot of people are saying around here and his value would go back up with this retirement money ideas. On the flip side the Wings have a goalie that is very good, it doesn't make us good trade partners. It isn't the typical cornering you have got from a lot of fanbases trying to completely devalue Luongo. It is more people pointing out aside from the sophomore slump how good Howard has been. He was in the Vezina conversation before Kesler slashed his hand after the all-star game in early February.

You think Wings fans are slighting Luongo. I think you are slighting Howard.

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Maize and Blue View Post
But you can have Abdelkader for ANYTHING!!!
U of M fans that hate Abdelkader are so funny. I am disappointed he hasn't developed as well to date as I think he should have, but anything??? Come on buddy take off those maize and blue glasses.

I very much doubt this is how the Wings organization views Abdelkader a player they just gave a four year extension to.

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11-01-2012, 01:21 PM
  #39
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He also is the guy with worse numbers in two of the last three years and significant baggage even if we can dump the retirement contract back on you at the end. Something would go back the other way for Edler, just not something you will think is awesome. The Wings don't need Luongo unless they lockout all year and Howard walks in free agency. That is the only way he makes sense.

Luongo is better than a lot of people are saying around here and his value would go back up with this retirement money ideas. On the flip side the Wings have a goalie that is very good, it doesn't make us good trade partners. It isn't the typical cornering you have got from a lot of fanbases trying to completely devalue Luongo. It is more people pointing out aside from the sophomore slump how good Howard has been. He was in the Vezina conversation before Kesler slashed his hand after the all-star game in early February.

You think Wings fans are slighting Luongo. I think you are slighting Howard.
The deal that makes sense would be Luongo (lifetime contract) + Edler (upcoming UFA) for Franzen (lifetime contract) + Howard (upcoming UFA). Although I wouldn't have any interest in that from a Canucks perspective.

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11-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
He also is the guy with worse numbers in two of the last three years and significant baggage even if we can dump the retirement contract back on you at the end. Something would go back the other way for Edler, just not something you will think is awesome. The Wings don't need Luongo unless they lockout all year and Howard walks in free agency. That is the only way he makes sense.

Luongo is better than a lot of people are saying around here and his value would go back up with this retirement money ideas. On the flip side the Wings have a goalie that is very good, it doesn't make us good trade partners. It isn't the typical cornering you have got from a lot of fanbases trying to completely devalue Luongo. It is more people pointing out aside from the sophomore slump how good Howard has been. He was in the Vezina conversation before Kesler slashed his hand after the all-star game in early February.

You think Wings fans are slighting Luongo. I think you are slighting Howard.
I'm slighting Howard? How so? By saying Luongo continues to put up .910 sv %? I didn't mention Howard or really anything Detroit. Heck there is more slighting of Luongo in your post then there was slighting of Howard in mine.

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11-01-2012, 01:33 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To attempt to salvage it:

To Vancouver: Franzen, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarsson, Macarthur, Luongo

To Toronto: Howard

Vancouver get's an aging forward on a lifetime contract for an aging goalie on a lifetime contract, with a late 1st added as the difference in calibre of the player. Detroit get's a decent replacement winger, a reliable defensive dman, and an upgrade in net. Toronto get's a goalie that isn't a different age than their core, or on a lifetime contract, etc.
The leafs fan in me says OMG YES!

The hockey fan in me says Why does Detroit do this? I will however make a counter.

To Vancouver: Franzen, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarson, Macarthur/Kulemin, Luongo, Another piece from Toronto(One of their better prospects/picks.)

To Toronto: Howard

I think Kulemin would be a much better piece than MacA going to Detroit Also a prospect would most likely need to head as well maybe someone in the likes of Finn,Percy,Blacker, etc Just my take.

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11-01-2012, 02:13 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
The leafs fan in me says OMG YES!

The hockey fan in me says Why does Detroit do this? I will however make a counter.

To Vancouver: Franzen, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarson, Macarthur/Kulemin, Luongo, Another piece from Toronto(One of their better prospects/picks.)

To Toronto: Howard

I think Kulemin would be a much better piece than MacA going to Detroit Also a prospect would most likely need to head as well maybe someone in the likes of Finn,Percy,Blacker, etc Just my take.
That makes a lot of sense. I believe Detroit's defensive prospect pool is rather shallow after Smith, So someone like Blacker might be a good fit.

Would changing Macarthur to Kulemin and adding a decent defensive prospect make it more appealing to Wings fans?

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Old
11-01-2012, 02:40 PM
  #43
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I respectfully disagree with many comparisons of Howard and Luongo, but my assessment of the proposed trade is this:

The Canucks don't get the return they feel they need, and that's not a knock against Franzen. There is no need to trade Luongo unless it makes us better at, or gives a player we don't have a dimension for, a position of weakness. Franzen could be that for us, but I feel we might find a better

The Red Wings have no need for Luongo, who I still feel is better, because of Howard. There is no need. They do have an excess of stong forwards with Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Flip and others, but not so many that one needs to be shown the door.

There is absolutely no need on either side, so even if the value is right, it won't happen, and wouldn't happen if the lockout was off.

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11-01-2012, 02:59 PM
  #44
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Franzen is one of the 2 missing pieces on the second line.
However the only expendable dmen we have are Ballard or Tanev.

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11-01-2012, 03:36 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
He also is the guy with worse numbers in two of the last three years and significant baggage even if we can dump the retirement contract back on you at the end. Something would go back the other way for Edler, just not something you will think is awesome. The Wings don't need Luongo unless they lockout all year and Howard walks in free agency. That is the only way he makes sense.

Luongo is better than a lot of people are saying around here and his value would go back up with this retirement money ideas. On the flip side the Wings have a goalie that is very good, it doesn't make us good trade partners. It isn't the typical cornering you have got from a lot of fanbases trying to completely devalue Luongo. It is more people pointing out aside from the sophomore slump how good Howard has been. He was in the Vezina conversation before Kesler slashed his hand after the all-star game in early February.

You think Wings fans are slighting Luongo. I think you are slighting Howard.
To even type Edler is a waste. Edler is the Canucks best all around Dman. Players of that level are not used to off set what some consider a bad contract. To ask for Edler would be comparable to Canuck fans asking for Kronwall to offset Franzen's bad contract.

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11-01-2012, 03:55 PM
  #46
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This is completely pointless for Detroit. Howard is better and Luongo is not a backup (should be in the Luongo thread anyway, I don't think this thread will last long).

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11-01-2012, 04:27 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
The leafs fan in me says OMG YES!

The hockey fan in me says Why does Detroit do this? I will however make a counter.

To Vancouver: Franzen, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarson, Macarthur/Kulemin, Luongo, Another piece from Toronto(One of their better prospects/picks.)

To Toronto: Howard

I think Kulemin would be a much better piece than MacA going to Detroit Also a prospect would most likely need to head as well maybe someone in the likes of Finn,Percy,Blacker, etc Just my take.
The value isn't bad at all, but it doesn't really work for us. Let's just say the first and the better prospect are equal. Then we're giving up Howard for Luongo, a significant downgrade for us considering age and contract. Then their's Franzen for Gunnarson and Kulemin/MacArthur. Kulemin and MacArthur wouldn't have much of a place here. We have way too many forwards like them. If we're giving up Franzen, I'd want a better dman than Gunnarson coming back.

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11-01-2012, 04:56 PM
  #48
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The value isn't bad at all, but it doesn't really work for us. Let's just say the first and the better prospect are equal. Then we're giving up Howard for Luongo, a significant downgrade for us considering age and contract. Then their's Franzen for Gunnarson and Kulemin/MacArthur. Kulemin and MacArthur wouldn't have much of a place here. We have way too many forwards like them. If we're giving up Franzen, I'd want a better dman than Gunnarson coming back.
I understand I just thought Kulemin would appeal more to Detroit as he seems much more defensively enabled. Also I REALLY want to see Kuli on the wing of Datsyuk.


Truly I want to see Detroit lock up Howard and make a pitch for Edler at FA. Edler is in no way a complete replacement for Lidstrom.(Hell I doubt there is a Dman out there right now who could replace him.) But he would be a great addition to their team.

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11-01-2012, 04:58 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
The leafs fan in me says OMG YES!

The hockey fan in me says Why does Detroit do this? I will however make a counter.

To Vancouver: Franzen, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarson, Macarthur/Kulemin, Luongo, Another piece from Toronto(One of their better prospects/picks.)

To Toronto: Howard

I think Kulemin would be a much better piece than MacA going to Detroit Also a prospect would most likely need to head as well maybe someone in the likes of Finn,Percy,Blacker, etc Just my take.
From vans pov we get a sick deal. Would be willing to give up more and we don't really need the first either.

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11-01-2012, 05:12 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
The leafs fan in me says OMG YES!

The hockey fan in me says Why does Detroit do this? I will however make a counter.

To Vancouver: Franzen, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarson, Macarthur/Kulemin, Luongo, Another piece from Toronto(One of their better prospects/picks.)

To Toronto: Howard

I think Kulemin would be a much better piece than MacA going to Detroit Also a prospect would most likely need to head as well maybe someone in the likes of Finn,Percy,Blacker, etc Just my take.
Wings fan here. I am only one voice, but I really like this deal. Ken Holland would never make a deal this big, but I would love it. Could we tweak it to look like this, Canucks fans? (added Abby for Raymond).

To Vancouver: Franzen, Abdelkader, Det 1st

To Detroit: Gunnarson, Macarthur/Kulemin, Raymond, Luongo, Another piece from Toronto(One of their better prospects/picks.)

To Toronto: Howard

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