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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part IX)

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:29 AM
  #876
garret9
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^Agreed Huffer.

Also to add:
Cormier is younger than Maxwell and same age as O`Dell. Maxwell has already plateaued in my mind and O`Dell *may* never surpass what Maxwell already is but Cormier already plays the shutdown role better than the other two.
Another note that gets missed with Cormier is that he is an excelent pest in the fact that he's efficient without hurting the team. He's always drawn more penalties than he's taken at the NHL level.

Edit: that being said, no one is off limits and I'm always for improving the team


Last edited by garret9: 10-29-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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Old
10-29-2012, 04:42 PM
  #877
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He's also really good at faceoffs a valuable skill to have

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11-01-2012, 02:58 PM
  #878
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Just kinda for fun cause they wouldn't happen, but value wise...

Would Van trade
A. Edler + C. Schneider for E.Kane + R.Hainsey?

And then the Jets trade to Chicago
O.Pavelec + C.Klingberg + Chicagos 2nd 2013 for D.Bolland + N.Leddy?

Winnipeg After:

Ladd - Jokinen - Wheeler
Burmistrov - Bolland - Little
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Wellwood
Machacek - Slater - Thorburn

Bogosian - Enstrom
Byfuglien - Edler
Leddy - Stuart

Schneider
Montoya

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Old
11-01-2012, 03:18 PM
  #879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets View Post
Just kinda for fun cause they wouldn't happen, but value wise...

Would Van trade
A. Edler + C. Schneider for E.Kane + R.Hainsey?

And then the Jets trade to Chicago
O.Pavelec + C.Klingberg + Chicagos 2nd 2013 for D.Bolland + N.Leddy?

Winnipeg After:

Ladd - Jokinen - Wheeler
Burmistrov - Bolland - Little
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Wellwood
Machacek - Slater - Thorburn

Bogosian - Enstrom
Byfuglien - Edler
Leddy - Stuart

Schneider
Montoya
Please no.

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11-01-2012, 03:27 PM
  #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets View Post
Just kinda for fun cause they wouldn't happen, but value wise...

Would Van trade
A. Edler + C. Schneider for E.Kane + R.Hainsey?

And then the Jets trade to Chicago
O.Pavelec + C.Klingberg + Chicagos 2nd 2013 for D.Bolland + N.Leddy?

Winnipeg After:

Ladd - Jokinen - Wheeler
Burmistrov - Bolland - Little
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Wellwood
Machacek - Slater - Thorburn

Bogosian - Enstrom
Byfuglien - Edler
Leddy - Stuart

Schneider
Montoya
That's awful.

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Old
11-01-2012, 04:44 PM
  #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets View Post
Just kinda for fun cause they wouldn't happen, but value wise...

Would Van trade
A. Edler + C. Schneider for E.Kane + R.Hainsey?

And then the Jets trade to Chicago
O.Pavelec + C.Klingberg + Chicagos 2nd 2013 for D.Bolland + N.Leddy?

Winnipeg After:

Ladd - Jokinen - Wheeler
Burmistrov - Bolland - Little
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Wellwood
Machacek - Slater - Thorburn

Bogosian - Enstrom
Byfuglien - Edler
Leddy - Stuart

Schneider
Montoya
Yes to both. Let's do it!

Get problem child prima-donna Kane out of here for good value - AND get rid of permanently disgruntled NHLPA poster-boy Ron Hainsey? I literally couldn't make that trade fast enough. No way Vancouver makes that deal though. I don't think they're looking for Hodgson 2.0...or to trade away the goalie they haven't poisoned their relationship with (yet).

And Bolland for drunk-driving-cover-upper, wildly inconsistent, albatross-contracted Pavelec, plus an AHL player and a 2nd rounder? AND we get Leddy as well? Holy smokes...Chicago probably likes this less than the Vancouver deal above.

Who on the Winnipeg side is saying no to either of these deals? I'm trying to see a downside. Loss of goal scoring, maybe? But Schneider + Edler alone probably saves us more goals against than 2 Kanes could ever put in the net.

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11-01-2012, 04:56 PM
  #882
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Edler is a UFA after this (nonexistent) season

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11-01-2012, 05:04 PM
  #883
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The Jets won't be trading Kane anytime soon after just signing him to a six year deal; that makes zero sense. Despite the negative feelings of a few posters on this board about Kane, the Jets just demonstrated a long-term commitment to him. They seem to feel he has upside...

Quote:
Jets GM Kevin Cheveldayoff believes Kane has the skills worthy of more than $5 million per season.

“He’s an exciting young player that has an ability to score goals and coupled with the ability to play a pretty physical game for a player that can put the puck in the net, that’s a very good combination,” Cheveldayoff said. “If you look up and down the league, there’s some players that can score and there’s some players that are big and can bang.

“But when you have a player that has the abilities to do that, along with his skating abilities at the age that he’s at, we think there’s tremendous potential and room for growth.”
http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/09/1...deal-with-jets

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11-01-2012, 07:07 PM
  #884
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Edler would probably only cost something we wouldn't want. Plus I'm not a huge fan of him. He's had difficulty beating middle of the road minutes (He basically faces competition equal to Burmi each year and has beat them similarly corsi wise).

I'd be more interested in maybe getting Tanev: wouldn't cost nearly as much, and would likely be worth more to us than he'd cost... he most likely will be an upgrade to Hainsey if he's not already there. 22 years old and he's already beating tough minutes. He's not an offensive machine but more of a "dependable guy". Problem is, do we have anything we could give up, not downgrade, and not mortgage the future... Maybe Hainsey + pick(s)

Enstrom - Bogosian
Tanev - Trouba
Melchiori/Yuen-Byfuglien/Postma

PP1: Enstrom - Bogosian (Kept these two together for "chemistry")
PP2: Trouba - Byfuglien/Postma

PK1: Tanev - Trouba (Kept these two together for "chemistry")
PK2: Melchiori/Yuen - Bogosian
I think that's a top4 that can win a cup in my mind 3-4 years down the road

I'm making some assumptions in this hypothetical world:
Byfuglien probably will regress by year 3 or 4, so you would shelter him on the 3rd with big PP TOI or trade him if forwards need bolstering for a cup run.

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Old
11-01-2012, 07:44 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Edler would probably only cost something we wouldn't want. Plus I'm not a huge fan of him. He's had difficulty beating middle of the road minutes (He basically faces competition equal to Burmi each year and has beat them similarly corsi wise).

I'd be more interested in maybe getting Tanev: wouldn't cost nearly as much, and would likely be worth more to us than he'd cost... he most likely will be an upgrade to Hainsey if he's not already there. 22 years old and he's already beating tough minutes. He's not an offensive machine but more of a "dependable guy". Problem is, do we have anything we could give up, not downgrade, and not mortgage the future... Maybe Hainsey + pick(s)

I'm making some assumptions in this hypothetical world:
Byfuglien probably will regress by year 3 or 4, so you would shelter him on the 3rd with big PP TOI or trade him if forwards need bolstering for a cup run.

This is an intruiging post for a number of reasons:
1)Tanev is the classic late bloomer. Have a look at this quote,
"...after being cut from seven midget-level teams at age 16 due to a lack of size (he was less than five feet and roughly 120 pounds at the time)...". Remember how we were earlier talking about kids with late birthdays not succeeding statistically because they don'y have the same opportunities. Well, Tanev's birthday is at the end of Dec. He is also described as really smart and calm on the ice
2)Of course, I can't resist commenting on Buff, who hopefully does have a few more good years left, but not many. I like your plan (esp option 2).
3)Trading Hainsey plus a pick is a great proposition. Hainsey still has a couple of good years left for a team making a serious run--ie, not us, yet. In Tanev, we would get back someone who is defensively sound, with youth and lots of upside.

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11-01-2012, 07:55 PM
  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
This is an intruiging post for a number of reasons:
1)Tanev is the classic late bloomer. Have a look at this quote,
"...after being cut from seven midget-level teams at age 16 due to a lack of size (he was less than five feet and roughly 120 pounds at the time)...". Remember how we were earlier talking about kids with late birthdays not succeeding statistically because they don'y have the same opportunities. Well, Tanev's birthday is at the end of Dec. He is also described as really smart and calm on the ice
Haha!! Noted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
2)Of course, I can't resist commenting on Buff, who hopefully does have a few more good years left, but not many. I like your plan (esp option 2).
He may be worth keeping or maybe worth trading or neither... who knows... just pure fun speculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
3)Trading Hainsey plus a pick is a great proposition. Hainsey still has a couple of good years left for a team making a serious run--ie, not us, yet. In Tanev, we would get back someone who is defensively sound, with youth and lots of upside.
Ya, basically the idea of this is to create a younger, and probably better, Hainsey. Removing a most-likely future hole in our depth and push the player depth so many of them are peaking around the same time...
I find that people wanting to trade Hainsey, Wellwood, and/or Antropov for picks don't realize that a lot of the picks that would come out of them wouldn't be ready in time for our current "older youth" (Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Pavelec, etc) to be ready for a run.


Pronman on Tanev:
Quote:
Tanev is an extremely smart defenseman with good mobility, and he looks the part of a blueliner with significant value despite not being your ideal power play quarterback. His ability to be a positive possession player while playing tough minutes at his age has certainly been impressive.

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Old
11-01-2012, 08:04 PM
  #887
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I'd totally be cool getting Tanev. That guy rocks and is exactly the kind of defender we need.

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Old
11-01-2012, 08:15 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The Jets won't be trading Kane anytime soon after just signing him to a six year deal; that makes zero sense. Despite the negative feelings of a few posters on this board about Kane, the Jets just demonstrated a long-term commitment to him. They seem to feel he has upside...


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/09/1...deal-with-jets

I agree with our GM.

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Old
11-01-2012, 09:49 PM
  #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The Jets won't be trading Kane anytime soon after just signing him to a six year deal; that makes zero sense. Despite the negative feelings of a few posters on this board about Kane, the Jets just demonstrated a long-term commitment to him. They seem to feel he has upside...


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/09/1...deal-with-jets
Yep. The Jets made a very bold statement with this signing. If they think his upside outweighs his percieved negatives, I am fully behind them. He probably just needs to grow up a little.

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Old
11-03-2012, 06:59 PM
  #890
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I wouldn't. At least not yet. (of course it would depend on the return though).

The reason being, I don't see Burmistrov being a 3rd line centre for many years. Maybe this year (if there is a this year), and maybe next year. But IMO, Burmistrov needs to be in the top 6. Either as a 2nd line centre, or as a winger. I also don't see Maxwell as a substitute for Cormier. I think Maxwell might be decent injury replacement for 1 or 2 games, but don't see him as a regular. He, along with O'Dell also don't bring the same things to the bottom 6 as Cormier, namely size, physicality, and an edge (and great faceoff ability). (Although I admitingly have not seen much of O'Dell. Question, if O'Dell progresses, could he play the wing?)

If Cormier has a good season this year with the Ice Caps, I could see Slater and Cormier in the bottom 6 with Burmistrov somewhere on the 2nd line. Baring any free agent signings or trades, if Cormier plateau's or stagnates, I think his competition will come from someone like Olsen or Sutter (eventually).
I agree with your assessment of Burmistrov, would not mind seeing him and Kane between a vet like Jokinen, preserving the Ladd-Little-Wheeler line. Not sure you'll see Slater and Cormier as 3-4, that's pretty light on offense, and I think Scheifle or O'Dell could provide better options in the 3 spot, but that's just me, I prefer 3 scoring lines. Cormier to me is a bottom line player, but given how useful Slater is, I'm not sure where Cormier fits in. The sandpaper and faceoff ability he has makes him intriguing, maybe he plays with Slater and Thor. But for that to happen I think he would have to prove he is a better option on the PK than Mittens. Wouldn't mind seeing him kill penalties with Kane, as they made a decent duo for the Canadian juniors.

As for Maxwell, I think he is underrated. I watched him evolve in Montreal. He was slated as a Carbo type centre, got a lot of minor league playing time with Pacioretty, successfully, but then Montreal buried him behind Lapierre, Chipchura, and Gainey's yearly veteran acquisitions. Thought after bouncing around last year, he finally showed his worth at the end of the season. Was the best centre for the Jets at the end of the season given his limited role. Would not mind seeing him and Mach pushing Antropov-Poni for playing time. I think Maxwell is a better skater than Cormier and a much better passer and shot. I think he has more potential as a 25-30 point pivot, whether in Winnipeg or elsewhere.

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11-04-2012, 12:06 AM
  #891
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I agree with your assessment of Burmistrov, would not mind seeing him and Kane between a vet like Jokinen, preserving the Ladd-Little-Wheeler line. Not sure you'll see Slater and Cormier as 3-4, that's pretty light on offense, and I think Scheifle or O'Dell could provide better options in the 3 spot, but that's just me, I prefer 3 scoring lines. Cormier to me is a bottom line player, but given how useful Slater is, I'm not sure where Cormier fits in. The sandpaper and faceoff ability he has makes him intriguing, maybe he plays with Slater and Thor. But for that to happen I think he would have to prove he is a better option on the PK than Mittens. Wouldn't mind seeing him kill penalties with Kane, as they made a decent duo for the Canadian juniors.

As for Maxwell, I think he is underrated. I watched him evolve in Montreal. He was slated as a Carbo type centre, got a lot of minor league playing time with Pacioretty, successfully, but then Montreal buried him behind Lapierre, Chipchura, and Gainey's yearly veteran acquisitions. Thought after bouncing around last year, he finally showed his worth at the end of the season. Was the best centre for the Jets at the end of the season given his limited role. Would not mind seeing him and Mach pushing Antropov-Poni for playing time. I think Maxwell is a better skater than Cormier and a much better passer and shot. I think he has more potential as a 25-30 point pivot, whether in Winnipeg or elsewhere.
Hmm interesting...

I admit, I haven't seen much of Maxwell previous to this year but Cormier and him at SJ were almost point-for-point the same in pts/gp with Maxwell getting far more TOI and having those minutes being more offence friendly. Cormier is also able to play both wings so if he can't usurp Slater's 4th line C role then he may take the LW or RW on the 4th line.

I really don't think Machacek or Maxwell will ever be regulars on a third line, unless on a team lacking in depth. They are both 24, meaning they are close to peaking, if they haven't already (most forwards peak between 24-26). IMHO, on a team that is gearing for more of a 3-scoring-lines system, all three of these players (Cormier, Maxwell and Machacek) will probably be looking to fill the 4th line role which will most likely go to Machacek and Cormier due to their superior grit and defensive abilities.




Slightly off topic and more for my own interest:

I decided to look up something up. The best ways to evaluate someones production is to check how hard/soft their minutes were (using QoC and OZS) and looking at "puck luck" (using sh%, OnIceSH% and PDO).

NameAgeRelQoCOZStart OZfinish GPRelCorsi SOG SH% OnIceSh% PDO #FO FO%
Spencer Machacek 24 -0.058 59.1 57.4 15 -10.1 12 16.7 26.32 1217 1 100.0
Ben Maxwell 24 -1.328 65.7 56.1 13 -14.4 10 10.0 13.33 1087 59 44.1
Patrice Cormier 22 -1.133 41.7 45.9 9 11.9 8 0.00 6.90 1019 30 73.3

Machacek:
  • He was sheltered while on the 4th line (where all his points come from) but also played some tough minutes when he did injury relief on the GST line, overall pretty middle-of-the-road to soft minutes.
  • Overall he wasn't able to outplay the other team as shown by his negative corsi, most of his negative corsi comes from his time on GST though.
  • Spencer Machacek leads the league in OnIceSH% and PDO for any forward in the NHL to play +10 games... that shows a lot of the points that occurred while he was on the ice isn't typical of his skill.

Maxwell:
  • He was sheltered both in ANA and WPG. Lined up pretty much only against the other teams 4th line and in predominately in the offensive zone.
  • Maxwell didn't do well on either team in beating the competition.
  • While Machacek lead the league in OIS and PDO, Maxwell came 7th and 2nd respectively

Cormier:
  • He saw mostly 4th liners as well, but -- unlike the other two -- he was mostly in the defensive zone
  • He actually beat the opponents corsi wise, but keep in mind these are small samples, so he may not be as good as that
  • Cormier had no points but the team did beat the other two in possession and shots-per-game
  • Cormier also was the only one of the three to end in the offensive zone more often than he started, which shows more on how he was able to push the play forward

I think all 3 of these guys are capable 4th liners but there probably will be only 1 or 2 spots available and that means that Cormier and Machacek may be preferred due to the points I placed above, even though Maxwell is a bit better offensively


Last edited by garret9: 11-04-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Added 3 categories
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Old
11-04-2012, 11:51 AM
  #892
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Anyone know what Cormier face-off stats were, in the NHL and the AHL?

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11-04-2012, 12:32 PM
  #893
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Anyone know what Cormier face-off stats were, in the NHL and the AHL?
I only know his NHL stats.

Very small sample size as he only had 30 faceoffs, but he dominated when he took them. He won 22 of them and lost 8, giving him a 73.3 faceoff %

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11-14-2012, 12:59 PM
  #894
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Quote from Lawless' article today:

"The Jets made money last season, but not very much."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...179242111.html

Does anyone know of an educated guess at what they made this past season? "Not very much" seems like BS, but this IS Lawless we are talking about here. Of course maybe we don't know what Gary considers "hockey-related revenue".

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11-14-2012, 01:42 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by Smelling Salt View Post
Quote from Lawless' article today:

"The Jets made money last season, but not very much."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...179242111.html

Does anyone know of an educated guess at what they made this past season? "Not very much" seems like BS, but this IS Lawless we are talking about here. Of course maybe we don't know what Gary considers "hockey-related revenue".
Forbes has estimates but that's all they are. Also fiscal year doesn't match with season start/stop.

But I wouldn't doubt it. The TNSE business model was made with having to take from revenue sharing and that was probably with full gate revenue.
Someone estimated the NHL league as a whole to be at a profit margin of 3%

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11-14-2012, 01:53 PM
  #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelling Salt View Post
Quote from Lawless' article today:

"The Jets made money last season, but not very much."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...179242111.html

Does anyone know of an educated guess at what they made this past season? "Not very much" seems like BS, but this IS Lawless we are talking about here. Of course maybe we don't know what Gary considers "hockey-related revenue".
I don't know numbers but a significant portion of the profit would have been from the incredible sales for team related items last year . That dollar amount will never be reached again and thus should be considered a one time anomoly.

Barring a long playoff run , Winnipeg won't make "much" money in any season imo. This is also with them spending to a lower tier level for salaries. Lawless made a salient point in that David Thompson is not and won't be a "sugar daddy" as Mike Milbury alluded to. He isn't going fund losses just to keep up with the joneses so to speak , again imo. True North will step up when it is prudent and when the expenditure can justified for making a tangible difference.

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11-14-2012, 02:30 PM
  #897
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You also have to consider there is many startup costs as well. I think that the second year will be more profitable especially under the new CBA, after that it will gently taper off.

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11-14-2012, 03:57 PM
  #898
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Good points guys, thanks.

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11-14-2012, 06:25 PM
  #899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelling Salt View Post
Quote from Lawless' article today:

"The Jets made money last season, but not very much."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...179242111.html

Does anyone know of an educated guess at what they made this past season? "Not very much" seems like BS, but this IS Lawless we are talking about here. Of course maybe we don't know what Gary considers "hockey-related revenue".
Lawless is really coming around.. He was tough to listen to during 2nd intermission last year, and on 1290.. In the last 6 or so months I've really become a fan of his.

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11-14-2012, 06:27 PM
  #900
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I don't know numbers but a significant portion of the profit would have been from the incredible sales for team related items last year . That dollar amount will never be reached again and thus should be considered a one time anomoly.

Barring a long playoff run , Winnipeg won't make "much" money in any season imo. This is also with them spending to a lower tier level for salaries. Lawless made a salient point in that David Thompson is not and won't be a "sugar daddy" as Mike Milbury alluded to. He isn't going fund losses just to keep up with the joneses so to speak , again imo. True North will step up when it is prudent and when the expenditure can justified for making a tangible difference.
100% agree with this.
Unless they make a good playoff run, they wont make as much as they did this year.
Even with a new cba, i dont see it changing a huge amount

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