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2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:41 AM
  #426
OlTimeHockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Ahhh yes, didn't think about that.

But isn't 'colored' supposed to be the nice PC way of not just saying 'black'?

As an aside:
In Germany, when you go to a club or some type of party where R&B, soul or rap music is being played, it's officially just called 'Black music'. It's not even translated (would be 'Musik der Schwarzen' or even in short 'Black Musik'). I always found that odd, but it's really what you'll see on the posters, in magazines and on the doors/walls of the actual clubs themselves. It's just how the people here recognize what types of artists are making those types of music.

As an aside II:
I once really had to chuckle when I caught parts of some documentary on Tyra Banks and one of her relatives was talking about her influence and work around the planet. On several occasions he referred to blacks outside of American borders as being African Americans as well.:-)

In general, you'll not find a regular use of some type of PC term for skin colors in most European countries, even in the more liberally thinking northern nations (although some aspects of PC thought have certainly made inroads there). A person is simply called the color of what they are - no beating around the bush. Of course, I'll add that it is my experience that the 'N' word is naturally tabu just about everywhere, regardless of the language.
An aside: in college I had a super PC (European American) zealot chiding me for using the term black. I for the entire semester used the words African American when commenting about her shoes, "African American Friday", the African American board, enjoying an African American&Tan at the bar......

I think she got the point, especially after a buddy of mine said "black people like us don't..." and then looked at me and smirked. I think "black" is acceptable but you always have to know who you are talking to.

I'd rather be corrected than condescending as saying African American always feels when I'm talking to the average Joe who happens to be black and likely calls himself black. But then again, I'm totally comfortable with any race or background.

Maybe I'm not sensitive enough.

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:09 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Symon Asher View Post
I believe his father is an assistant coach for the Nets so that would be a cool story.
FYI - We do not use the term colored here but African American
Correct, Seth's father Ron "Popeye" Jones is an assistant coach with the Nets.
Would be an interesting connection between the Barclay Center teams.
Let's go Nets!!!

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10-29-2012, 06:43 PM
  #428
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I saw an NHL future special here in Montreal and they were talking about the Islanders. The experts made a "future roster". It is in 5 years:

Moulson - Tavares - Nino
Kabanov - Strome - Okposo
Grabner - Nelson - Lee
Martin - Cizikas - Joensuu
Ullstrom
Reinhart - Hamonic
DeHaan - Mayfield
Pelech - Pokka
Kitchon
Poulin
Nilsson

I think the Islanders will have one of the best rosters at that time.

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10-29-2012, 08:01 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Correct, Seth's father Ron "Popeye" Jones is an assistant coach with the Nets.
Would be an interesting connection between the Barclay Center teams.
Let's go Nets!!!
Ima huge Mavs fan and I use to love Popeyes with the Mavs, he was a gritty player.

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10-29-2012, 11:15 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
I saw an NHL future special here in Montreal and they were talking about the Islanders. The experts made a "future roster". It is in 5 years:

Moulson - Tavares - Nino
Kabanov - Strome - Okposo
Grabner - Nelson - Lee
Martin - Cizikas - Joensuu
Ullstrom
Reinhart - Hamonic
DeHaan - Mayfield
Pelech - Pokka
Kitchon
Poulin
Nilsson

I think the Islanders will have one of the best rosters at that time.
I wouldn't count on Kabanov being a top six foward over Brock Nelson, and I expect Frans Nielsen to eventually be our third line center. Also, with de Haan's recent shoulder injury, I don't see him being a part of the team's future.

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Old
10-30-2012, 03:59 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Ahhh yes, didn't think about that.

But isn't 'colored' supposed to be the nice PC way of not just saying 'black'?

As an aside:
In Germany, when you go to a club or some type of party where R&B, soul or rap music is being played, it's officially just called 'Black music'. It's not even translated (would be 'Musik der Schwarzen' or even in short 'Schwarzenmusik'). I always found that odd, but it's really what you'll see on the posters, in magazines and on the doors/walls of the actual clubs themselves. It's just how the people here recognize what types of artists are making those types of music.

As an aside II:
I once really had to chuckle when I caught parts of some documentary on Tyra Banks and one of her relatives was talking about her influence and work around the planet. On several occasions he referred to blacks outside of American borders as being African Americans as well.:-)

In general, you'll not find a regular use of some type of PC term for skin colors in most European countries, even in the more liberally thinking northern nations (although some aspects of PC thought have certainly made inroads there). A person is simply called the color of what they are - no beating around the bush. Of course, I'll add that it is my experience that the 'N' word is naturally tabu just about everywhere, regardless of the language.
Sweden is incredibly PC or rather our media and over-sensitive people is. Folks in general are fed up with those idiots destroying our language.

"Svart" (= black) is the most used term in Sweden. Furthermore "neger" (which in Swedish language originate from the Spanish word for black - negro) is widely used. Hekk, we've even got a pastry called "negerboll", which directly translates into "negroball".

Personally I sometimes use the Viking term for black people "blman" --> "blueman". Because media and over-sensitive people havn't charged/associated that word with negativity yet - unlike "neger" and "svart".

Sorry for OT.


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10-30-2012, 05:07 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I think he was saying something else.

He was saying that he didn't want McDavid because that would mean that the Islanders would have to have yet another season full of losing in order to be in a position to take a kid thought to be a #1 overall candidate, seeing as how McDavid is not draft eligible this upcoming summer.

Now, that said, we shouldn't forget that McDavid isn't draft eligible until like 2015, if I remember his birth month correctly.
This, thanks.

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10-30-2012, 05:12 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
You mean, you don't think the Islanders would get the pick necessary to take Mackinnon if the season were to be lost to the lockout and the draft order would be determined by a lottery?

Interestingly, if the league would finangle (sp) the lottery in order to 'pick and choose' who would have the first shots at Jones and MacKinnon (as many felt was done when Pittsburgh got to pick Crosby first overall after the last lockout right at a time where that town, as an NHL site, was endangered and desperately needed a new 'Lemieux'), then I'd have to think that the Brooklyn news is reason enough for the powers that be to want the NYI picking first or second.

Heck, just imagine how Bettman would be licking his chops over the thought of one of hockey's future all-star Dmen being a colored kid who's the son of a former NBA player AND playing in NY City???
I mean, there are other teams with more options to get the top overall pick.

Quote:
TEAMS WITH THREE BALLS (7)
Calgary, Carolina, Columbus, Dallas, Minnesota, Toronto, Winnipeg

TEAMS WITH TWO BALLS (6)
Anaheim, Colorado, Florida, New York Islanders, St. Louis, Tampa Bay

TEAMS WITH ONE BALL (17)
Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Edmonton, Los Angeles, Montreal, Nashville, New Jersey, New York Rangers, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Vancouver, Washington
Just in case the lockout remains all the season.

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:14 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
But isn't 'colored' supposed to be the nice PC way of not just saying 'black'?
No, that word has been out of use for longer than there has been a concept of political correctness. You might be thinking of the term 'people of color' which would refer to any non-white person.

PC language is a function of racial and cultural diversity. Europe being late-coming to that party are late coming to PC language, but I think it's funny when Europeans think themselves special if they can resist it. Just don't support neo-fascist political parties as in France, Holland, Greece, and Austria.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:33 AM
  #435
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Fact is, it's a generational thing.

Some black people refer to themselves as just that. Others refer to themselves as negro, or coloured. Still others, African American.

That last one is what the nanny-staters prefer, as it is pc, and identifies with (and acknowledges) the slave trade.

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:49 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
No, that word has been out of use for longer than there has been a concept of political correctness. You might be thinking of the term 'people of color' which would refer to any non-white person.

PC language is a function of racial and cultural diversity. Europe being late-coming to that party are late coming to PC language, but I think it's funny when Europeans think themselves special if they can resist it. Just don't support neo-fascist political parties as in France, Holland, Greece, and Austria.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Neo-fascist party? None in austria. Fp is a clearly democratic party. They share some ideologicak heritage with the nazis, but no one with a political background would consider them neo-fascist. And europeans think themselves special? Whats that all about? Pc-ness doesnt have the significance it does in the us. No other part in the world is as pc as the us...i guess everyone thinks they are special except the us americans, heh?

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Old
10-30-2012, 08:39 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Europe being late-coming to that party are late coming to PC language, but I think it's funny when Europeans think themselves special if they can resist it.
I think if folks in North America have that impression, it has less to do with certain Europeans feeling they are too special for a PC mindframe and much more to do with them simply thinking that PC thought and speech is very superficial.

In addition, without such a history so minted by the on-site industry of slavery (although obviously heavily participated in and spearheaded transatlantically by Europeans) and the race separation issues that ensued, there's no heavy negativity in simply referring to one's skin color as black (much less white, red, yellow, whatever).

I know that at least here the train of thought I've most encountered is "What is, is. Why call it something else?".

And I write that from a metropolitan area that is, generally, extremely liberal-minded.

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Old
10-30-2012, 09:04 AM
  #438
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Oh, I thought this was the thread about our prospects. I was wrong.

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Old
10-30-2012, 09:17 AM
  #439
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Ladies and Gentlemen, let's get back to the topic of Isles prospects. Thanks.

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10-30-2012, 09:24 AM
  #440
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Pronman's top 50 nhlers under 23 is posted below. I'm not surprised to see JT ranked so high, but I was surprised to see Hamonic getting so much deserved respect. Nice to see others, besides NYI fans, giving TH props.
Nino gets an honorable mention.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1398
October 28, 2012
From Daigle To Datsyuk
Top 50 Under 23
by Corey Pronman

2. John Tavares, Center, New York Islanders
These next three players were hard to order, and I could see a legitimate argument for any of them to be #2. I ended up siding with Tavares because on a scouting level, I've always been blown away by him and I can't begin a Tavares write-up without remembering discussions I had with scouts in 2008 and 2009 referring to him as a generational prospect. He is a special talent with the kind of offensive sense you don't find often and has improved his skating since turning pro. The only argument against him right now would be that it would be preferable to see him produce at a high level without the high offensive zone starts, but the quality of teammates argument somewhat counteracts that.

20. Travis Hamonic, Defense, New York Islanders
There are players like Justin Faulk who when drafted, you say, "If he improves in areas A and B a lot, I could see a top player" but I'd be lying if I would have made that argument for Hamonic. Even during his last season in major junior I thought he would top out as a quality second pairing player due to unimpressive offensive skill. Hamonic has been outstanding in his first two NHL seasons, and while he has not killed it offensively, he is still young and that could improve as he enters his prime. Hamonic's defensive game has looked high-end, though, and he should be a top pairing defenseman for many years.

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10-30-2012, 10:28 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by PWJunior
Ladies and Gentlemen, let's get back to the topic of Isles prospects. Thanks.
My bad. I took us on that tangent.

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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1398
October 28, 2012
From Daigle To Datsyuk
Top 50 Under 23
by Corey Pronman

2. John Tavares, Center, New York Islanders
These next three players were hard to order, and I could see a legitimate argument for any of them to be #2. I ended up siding with Tavares because on a scouting level, I've always been blown away by him and I can't begin a Tavares write-up without remembering discussions I had with scouts in 2008 and 2009 referring to him as a generational prospect. He is a special talent with the kind of offensive sense you don't find often and has improved his skating since turning pro. The only argument against him right now would be that it would be preferable to see him produce at a high level without the high offensive zone starts, but the quality of teammates argument somewhat counteracts that.

20. Travis Hamonic, Defense, New York Islanders
There are players like Justin Faulk who when drafted, you say, "If he improves in areas A and B a lot, I could see a top player" but I'd be lying if I would have made that argument for Hamonic. Even during his last season in major junior I thought he would top out as a quality second pairing player due to unimpressive offensive skill. Hamonic has been outstanding in his first two NHL seasons, and while he has not killed it offensively, he is still young and that could improve as he enters his prime. Hamonic's defensive game has looked high-end, though, and he should be a top pairing defenseman for many years.
Naturally nice to see. Pronman has a great deal of attention in recent and is likely one of those folks in the business who has most profitted from the widereaching field of communication made possible by Twitter.

And although it's nice to see Hamonic recognized, I'm even more enthusiastic about JT landing at 2nd. He's becoming a beast and with the latest news he may end up being the most important Islander figure since the cup days for a long period of time. May there be many team and maybe even league scoring titles - as well as championships of course - in his days with the Isles.

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Old
10-30-2012, 02:14 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Pronman's top 50 nhlers under 23 is posted below. I'm not surprised to see JT ranked so high, but I was surprised to see Hamonic getting so much deserved respect. Nice to see others, besides NYI fans, giving TH props.
Nino gets an honorable mention.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1398
October 28, 2012
From Daigle To Datsyuk
Top 50 Under 23
by Corey Pronman

2. John Tavares, Center, New York Islanders
These next three players were hard to order, and I could see a legitimate argument for any of them to be #2. I ended up siding with Tavares because on a scouting level, I've always been blown away by him and I can't begin a Tavares write-up without remembering discussions I had with scouts in 2008 and 2009 referring to him as a generational prospect. He is a special talent with the kind of offensive sense you don't find often and has improved his skating since turning pro. The only argument against him right now would be that it would be preferable to see him produce at a high level without the high offensive zone starts, but the quality of teammates argument somewhat counteracts that.

20. Travis Hamonic, Defense, New York Islanders
There are players like Justin Faulk who when drafted, you say, "If he improves in areas A and B a lot, I could see a top player" but I'd be lying if I would have made that argument for Hamonic. Even during his last season in major junior I thought he would top out as a quality second pairing player due to unimpressive offensive skill. Hamonic has been outstanding in his first two NHL seasons, and while he has not killed it offensively, he is still young and that could improve as he enters his prime. Hamonic's defensive game has looked high-end, though, and he should be a top pairing defenseman for many years.
I know I will catch some grief for this, especially because whats done is done... However, seeing how LOW Duchene is on that list is in a way comforting. Hedman is not all to high either with FOUR DEFENDERS listed ahead of him. Thus, with JT being second only to one of the most gifted goal scorers the NHL has seen in a little while you have to feel reassured.

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Old
10-30-2012, 02:19 PM
  #443
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I know I will catch some grief for this, especially because whats done is done... However, seeing how LOW Duchene is on that list is in a way comforting. Hedman is not all to high either with FOUR DEFENDERS listed ahead of him. Thus, with JT being second only to one of the most gifted goal scorers the NHL has seen in a little while you have to feel reassured.
And Jeff Skinner and Tyler Myers.

But no matter what the list and who produces it, it's impossible to not find some odd anomalies.

Happy to see JT at #2

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10-30-2012, 03:32 PM
  #444
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I know I will catch some grief for this, especially because whats done is done... However, seeing how LOW Duchene is on that list is in a way comforting. Hedman is not all to high either with FOUR DEFENDERS listed ahead of him. Thus, with JT being second only to one of the most gifted goal scorers the NHL has seen in a little while you have to feel reassured.
I'm glad to see Hedman getting props. I think he gets underrated by many fans.

As for Duchene, I don't think his low ranking is based entirely on his injuries. From what Avs fans were posting, his development stalled a bit last season. He didn't do a good job using his linemates.

That's why he ended up, with a two yr ' show me' contract, instead of a 5-6 yr deal.

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10-31-2012, 06:01 AM
  #445
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10-31-2012, 07:30 AM
  #446
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Old
10-31-2012, 10:23 AM
  #447
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I'm glad to see Hedman getting props. I think he gets underrated by many fans.

As for Duchene, I don't think his low ranking is based entirely on his injuries. From what Avs fans were posting, his development stalled a bit last season. He didn't do a good job using his linemates.

That's why he ended up, with a two yr ' show me' contract, instead of a 5-6 yr deal.
I've heard that he's not a great team guy, kind of cocky (not in a good way) and a puck-hog, isn't the leader they were hoping for. Although his adjustment to the NHL was immediate (largely due to his speed/strength at 18 - like Landeskog was last year) he hasn't really improved his game. He's a tremendously skilled player but doesn't have elite vision or finish.


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10-31-2012, 12:30 PM
  #448
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I've heard that he's not a great team guy, kind of cocky (not in a good way) and a puck-hog, isn't the leader they were hoping for. Although his adjustment to the NHL was immediate (large due to his speed/strength at 18 - like Landeskog was last year) he hasn't really improved his game. He's a tremendously skilled player but doesn't have elite vision or finish.
Yep, he sure ain't no Tavares.

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11-01-2012, 07:23 PM
  #449
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I've heard that he's not a great team guy, kind of cocky (not in a good way) and a puck-hog, isn't the leader they were hoping for. Although his adjustment to the NHL was immediate (largely due to his speed/strength at 18 - like Landeskog was last year) he hasn't really improved his game. He's a tremendously skilled player but doesn't have elite vision or finish.
He's had one bad season. Too early to give up on Duchene. I'm thrilled we drafted Tavares, and was scared we were gonna take Hedman or Duchene, not because they are bad players, I just thought Tavares was gonna be the best player of those 3. That being said, I'd take Duchene on the Isles in a heartbeat, would love to see him teamed up w/JT.

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11-01-2012, 08:46 PM
  #450
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He's had one bad season. Too early to give up on Duchene. I'm thrilled we drafted Tavares, and was scared we were gonna take Hedman or Duchene, not because they are bad players, I just thought Tavares was gonna be the best player of those 3. That being said, I'd take Duchene on the Isles in a heartbeat, would love to see him teamed up w/JT.
nobody's giving up on him. Merely repeating what I heard on radio about Duchene. I think it was a beat writer or radio guy for the Avs who mentioned it in reference to the emergence and leadership of Landeskog and O'Reilly. When the host asked about Duchene, there was a lot of commentary about his attitude, leadership (lack of) and his presence in the room.

Still a great talent.

---

And, don't look now, Strome's got two more points tonight in a 2-0 win, up to 23 pts (tied with Scheifele) and just four away from the OHL leader.

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