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Best Defensive Forward Ever

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Old
11-01-2012, 04:23 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
How dominant can a winger be on the defensive side of the puck? Cover his point man and backcheck?

The variation in defensive prowess among wingers is much lower than centers.
This is why if I had to pick, Gainey would be my choice for best defensive forward of all time. By all reports, he dominated the ice defensively in a way that usually only centers can do.

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11-01-2012, 04:34 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is why if I had to pick, Gainey would be my choice for best defensive forward of all time...
ya, I & most would agree, followed by in no
particular order just ta mess with people...

Pavel Datsyuk
Guy Carbonneau
Ronnie Francis
Jere Lehtinen
Bobby Clarke
Mike Peca
Rod Brind'Amour
Doug Gilmour
Doug Jarvis
Dave Keon
Jari Kurri
Ryan Kesler
Mike Richards
Bobby Holik

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11-01-2012, 04:51 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
many people consider Bob Gainey to be the most dominant defensive forward of all-time, and Craig Ramsay played at the same time and had superior defensive stats on a lesser team, both at ES and on the PK. Both seriously in the conversation for best defensive forward ever. Both LWs.
...unhuh. Did you actually see this guy play? Yes, he was good, product of the Peterborough Petes. Played in Buffalo on the same line with his buddy Don Luce & the terrific Danny Gare at Centre. Noted "Iron Man". But in the "same conversation as Bob Gainey"? Not even in the same room. Entirely different dynamic in Buffalo, Coaching system. Here more than ever the reliance solely upon statistics like relying on a compass in the Bermuda Triangle. Ya I know he won a Selke etc but still, not on par with Gainey. No way no how.

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11-01-2012, 04:57 PM
  #104
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How is Yzerman even being mentioned in this thread?

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11-01-2012, 04:58 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...unhuh. Did you actually see this guy play? Yes, he was good, product of the Peterborough Petes. Played in Buffalo on the same line with his buddy Don Luce & the terrific Danny Gare at Centre. Noted "Iron Man". But in the "same conversation as Bob Gainey"? Not even in the same room. Entirely different dynamic in Buffalo, Coaching system. Here more than ever the reliance solely upon statistics like relying on a compass in the Bermuda Triangle. Ya I know he won a Selke etc but still, not on par with Gainey. No way no how.
Thank you for your paragraph of unsubstantiated opinions and facts that anyone could cite after a quick glance through page 1 of a google search.

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11-01-2012, 05:00 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
How is Yzerman even being mentioned in this thread?
...dunno. But say, isnt that rendering of a fox in yer avy from Currier & Ives? Believe so. Just noticed it. Very nice.

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11-01-2012, 05:01 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Thank you for your paragraph of unsubstantiated opinions and facts that anyone could cite after a quick glance through page 1 of a google search.
...your most welcome. Hope you spot the Florida Key's & landfall real soon.

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11-01-2012, 05:05 PM
  #108
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Someone on this board tell me how Bob Gainey is the best.No one can't because he was not.

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11-01-2012, 05:57 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Sergei Fedorov. The only player ever to win Selke and Hart in one season.
Bob Gainey. The only player ever to win the Selke and Conn Smythe in one season.

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11-01-2012, 06:41 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
ya, I & most would agree, followed by in no
particular order just ta mess with people...

Pavel Datsyuk
Guy Carbonneau
Ronnie Francis
Jere Lehtinen
Bobby Clarke
Mike Peca
Rod Brind'Amour
Doug Gilmour
Doug Jarvis
Dave Keon
Jari Kurri
Ryan Kesler
Mike Richards
Bobby Holik
Any discussion of the best defensive forward has to include Fedorov.

Fedorov's 1993-94 season is one for the record books and one of the greatest displays ever of two-way brilliance. He stared on both sides of the puck that season. He was by far the best player in the NHL for that one season.

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11-01-2012, 06:52 PM
  #111
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Gainey never had a 60pts season never had 25 goal season and people put him ahead of Guy C because a russian coach made a comment.How many minutes a game did Bob Play?I like Bob and respect him I just don't put him as high as some of you because their is no facts to back it up

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11-01-2012, 06:58 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Gainey never had a 60pts season never had 25 goal season and people put him ahead of Guy C because a russian coach made a comment.How many minutes a game did Bob Play?I like Bob and respect him I just don't put him as high as some of you because their is no facts to back it up
And this is relevant to the best defensive forward, how exactly?

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11-01-2012, 07:38 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...unhuh. Did you actually see this guy play? Yes, he was good, product of the Peterborough Petes. Played in Buffalo on the same line with his buddy Don Luce & the terrific Danny Gare at Centre. Noted "Iron Man". But in the "same conversation as Bob Gainey"? Not even in the same room. Entirely different dynamic in Buffalo, Coaching system. Here more than ever the reliance solely upon statistics like relying on a compass in the Bermuda Triangle. Ya I know he won a Selke etc but still, not on par with Gainey. No way no how.
As someone who finds himself in the "old school" way of evaluating hockey more often than not, I would personally be interested in hearing more on their differences (Gainey and Ramsay that is) if you can further elaborate. You mention different coaching in Buffalo and then make a decidedly one-sided claim that Gainey is a world above Ramsay, though conventional wisdom suggests otherwise (well, suggests that they're quite close). Even if the board won't hear it and it needs to be PM'd to me, I'd be very interested.

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11-01-2012, 07:46 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
As someone who finds himself in the "old school" way of evaluating hockey more often than not, I would personally be interested in hearing more on their differences (Gainey and Ramsay that is) if you can further elaborate. You mention different coaching in Buffalo and then make a decidedly one-sided claim that Gainey is a world above Ramsay, though conventional wisdom suggests otherwise (well, suggests that they're quite close). Even if the board won't hear it and it needs to be PM'd to me, I'd be very interested.
I think "conventional wisdom" does say that Gainey was way ahead of Ramsay. He's in the HHOF, and the conventional narrative is that he was so good defensively, the NHL created the Selke Trophy to honor him. The case that Ramsay is close (or even ahead) is mostly statistical.

This is what I have gathered, mostly from the accounts of people who saw them play:

Gainey's big advantage was versatility - he was a natural LW but was used at all 3 forward positions and with a variety of linemates depending on who he was checking. Part of this was coaching - Bowman shuffled lines more than most coaches. Ramsay had better goals-against and penalty-killing stats in the regular season, but he seems to have depended on his linemates (Luce in particular) a lot more. Ramsay's defensive stats are also likely inflated by the small building in Buffalo.

Gainey was also much more physical than Ramsay.

Ramsay also doesn't have a reputation of shutting guys down in big games like Gainey did. Rick Middleton lit up Buffalo in the 1983 playoffs, and as a RW, he's the guy Ramsay was supposed to be checking.

All this said, I do think Ramsay is likely not that far behind Gainey defensively.

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11-01-2012, 07:47 PM
  #115
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Look at Gainy's plus minus and compare to the players you say he is better than he's inferior to most of them.

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11-01-2012, 07:56 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Gainey never had a 60pts season never had 25 goal season and people put him ahead of Guy C because a russian coach made a comment.How many minutes a game did Bob Play?I like Bob and respect him I just don't put him as high as some of you because their is no facts to back it up
I think you're confusing the term best two-way forward with best defensive forward. This thread is about quantifying and qualifying the latter.

There are probably a hand full of forwards that are/ were better two-way players but as far as defensive prowess from the forward position is concerned, Gainey is easily top 3 all-time.

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11-01-2012, 07:57 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Look at Gainy's plus minus and compare to the players you say he is better than he's inferior to most of them.
Of course, plus/minus isn't a measure of defense.

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11-01-2012, 08:09 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I think you're confusing the term best two-way forward with best defensive forward. This thread is about quantifying and qualifying the latter.

There are probably a hand full of forwards that are/ were better two-way players but as far as defensive prowess from the forward position is concerned, Gainey is easily top 3 all-time.
There are a lot of better "two-way forwards" than Gainey, because his offense really wasn't that impressive. Fedorov and Datsyuk? Yeah, better two-ways. Better defensively though? I highly doubt it.

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11-01-2012, 08:21 PM
  #119
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Bob Gainey

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think "conventional wisdom" does say that Gainey was way ahead of Ramsay. He's in the HHOF, and the conventional narrative is that he was so good defensively, the NHL created the Selke Trophy to honor him. The case that Ramsay is close (or even ahead) is mostly statistical.

This is what I have gathered, mostly from the accounts of people who saw them play:

Gainey's big advantage was versatility - he was a natural LW but was used at all 3 forward positions and with a variety of linemates depending on who he was checking. Part of this was coaching - Bowman shuffled lines more than most coaches. Ramsay had better goals-against and penalty-killing stats in the regular season, but he seems to have depended on his linemates (Luce in particular) a lot more. Ramsay's defensive stats are also likely inflated by the small building in Buffalo.

Gainey was also much more physical than Ramsay.

Ramsay also doesn't have a reputation of shutting guys down in big games like Gainey did. Rick Middleton lit up Buffalo in the 1983 playoffs, and as a RW, he's the guy Ramsay was supposed to be checking.

All this said, I do think Ramsay is likely not that far behind Gainey defensively.
Bob Gainey was able to play a physical,aggressive forecheck against the leading offensive defensemen from the start to the finish of his career, spanning Bobby Orr thru 10 seasons of Ray Bourque. Yet at the same time he was a fast and strong skater that allowed him to get back and cover the leading scoring RWs of the same era.

TDMM pointed out how Craig Ramsay was lit-uo by Rick Middleton but the major weakness in Ramsay's career was that he was one of the first player's from the seventies to retire when the short shift game became a factor starting with the 1984-85 season, while Bob Gainey lasted the longest amongst the forwards effective to the end.

Craig Ramsey never was chosen to represent Canada in a best against best tournament:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...ramsacr01.html

while Bob Gainey played on 4 Team Canada squads including the 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gainebo01.html

Finally, overpass showed previously that Craig Ramsay was not as effective on the regulation NHL rink as he was on the smaller Buffalo rink. Bob Gainey was equally effective on all rinks including the larger International rink - evidenced by his WHC results.

Regardless of the attempts to bridge the gap between the two, Bob Gainey was the vastly superior defensive LW. Two other LWs - Bob Pulford and Gilles Tremblay would rate above Craig Ramsay below Bob Gainey, as would two position players like Alex Delvecchio plus a number of post 1980s LWs.

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11-01-2012, 08:44 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
... make a decidedly one-sided claim that Gainey is a world above Ramsay, though conventional wisdom suggests otherwise (well, suggests that they're quite close).
...well Mike, I think we'll just let nature takes its course with respect to the claim that Gainey & Ramsay belong in the "same conversation" and let other posters have at er'. You can see & read for yourself how the ranks of my "one sided claim" seem to be filling up with recruits, and as the Enlistment Office only opened a few short hours ago, I expect many more will be appearing to further edify & enlighten those amongst us who apparently never actually saw Mr. Ramsay on a pair of skates or if they did, it was whilst he was figure skating in an old timers game for the benefit of the Shrine Circus or in a commercial for Grecian Formula For Men.


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11-01-2012, 09:53 PM
  #121
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...well Mike, I think we'll just let nature takes its course with respect to the claim that Gainey & Ramsay belong in the "same conversation" and let other posters have at er'. You can see & read for yourself how the ranks of my "one sided claim" seem to be filling up with recruits, and as the Enlistment Office only opened a few short hours ago, I expect many more will be appearing to further edify & enlighten those amongst us who apparently never actually saw Mr. Ramsay on a pair of skates or if they did, it was whilst he was figure skating in an old timers game for the benefit of the Shrine Circus or in a commercial for Grecian Formula For Men.
Always an entertaining response at least. Well, in case it wasn't obvious (I hope it was), I wasn't putting down your claim because I really respect the more experienced fans here that I know know the game well and am always eager to learn from them.

Maybe a less controversial question for either you or C1958 (or anyone I suppose, why not...it's a forum), line matching seems to date back considerably and is still used today quite a bit. However, the use of the "shadow" has been largely discontinued. Is there a significant difference in use there (a shadow, that is) vs. line matching in general?

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11-01-2012, 11:12 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
As someone who finds himself in the "old school" way of evaluating hockey more often than not, I would personally be interested in hearing more on their differences (Gainey and Ramsay that is) if you can further elaborate. You mention different coaching in Buffalo and then make a decidedly one-sided claim that Gainey is a world above Ramsay, though conventional wisdom suggests otherwise (well, suggests that they're quite close). Even if the board won't hear it and it needs to be PM'd to me, I'd be very interested.
Gainey was more visible. He was bigger, faster, and more physical. His team was the Habs, and his teams won. A lot.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
but he seems to have depended on his linemates (Luce in particular) a lot more.
where did this come from?

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Ramsay's defensive stats are also likely inflated by the small building in Buffalo.
We talked about this in the ATD section half a year ago:

Quote:
- Both were LWs who were always matched against the opposition's best players for similar amounts of icetime
- One played in a vastly superior team situation that should have resulted in much fewer GA per game
- Instead, the other one had 0.53 adjusted ESGA per game in his prime (1974-1982) while the one with the advantage allowed 0.56 per game in his prime (1977-1986).

Ramsay's Sabres allowed 2.96 goals per game in his prime - 15.5% better than the league average. Gainey's habs allowed 2.93 - 20% better than the league average.

So it looks like Ramsay was allowing 5% fewer goals while in a team situation 4.5% more conducive to allowing goals. Sounds like about a 10% edge defensively. Difficult to surmount.

Why would the superior defensive forward on a superior defensive team, allow more goals?

The rebuttal to that, of course, is that his arena helped him. The smaller Buffalo Auditorium was better for defense. Angles and all that stuff. Gilbert Perreault scored the same at home as on the road, instead of 10% more at home, like most superstar forwards, so there must be something to that. Apparently 4 feet makes that big a difference. You never hear excuses made for Boston players (191X83), Chicago players (188X85) or Red Wings (200X83). Just for the best defensive player on the team with the fourth smallest rink in the league (196X85).

During Ramsay's prime, Buffalo outscored the opposition 1531-969 at home, 4.26 to 2.76 per game. On the road, where the regulation sized rinks would surely provide more offensive freedom to both the Sabres and their opposition, they outscored the opposition 1225-1183, or 3.49 to 3.37 per game. As you'd find with an 'average' team, they got better both offensively and defensively at home, by similar margins: 22% and 19%. The total goals in their home games was 2500. On the road, 2408. Considering what happened to Perreault's offense at home and the old Ramsay excuse, you'd think there was a ton less scoring at the Aud, but when you look at the big picture, that was not the case.

It would be really hard to make the case that Ramsay got better defensively at home at a rate disproportionate to his Buffalo teammates. The best assumption we can make, is that he was 19% better defensively at home like the rest of his team. the question is, is this abnormal?

the best data I can find is here: http://www.hockeycentral.co.uk/nhlst...omeroaddiv.php - the closest seasons to those in question are 1985-1990. Over that period, teams were 13.1% better at goal prevention at home then on the road. This is a trend that seems to be lessening over time; it has been just 9.8% over the last 4 seasons. It was likely more than just 13.1% in the 1974-1986 period I want to analyze, but let's just go with 13.1.

If Ramsay got 19% better defensively at home, but it was normal to be 13.1% better, than 5.9% of it could be explained by the arena. But only half his games were at the Aud, so the adjustment to defensive numbers should be in the 3% range.

Going back to the 10% gap we were looking at before, that would now appear to be in a 7% range. What explains that 7%?

There's not really a good answer to that. And make no mistake, 7% over that length of time is a lot.

But then the rebuttal to that is, "but look at the Selke voting". Gainey won 4 times, yes, but for whatever reasons the voters fell out of love with him rather quickly. Ramsay was consistently earning significant votes every season from 1978-1985 - his entire career span in which the selke was awarded. He actually earned more voting points per season eligible.

But the rebuttal to that, is, "but Gainey won it four times; peak > consistency!" There are three answers to this. One, Ramsay was statistically better during those 4 seasons, allowing 0.56 Adjusted ESGA per game as opposed to 0.63 for Gainey. Two, Gainey missed 14 and 16 games in two of those seasons; is it really feasible that he delivered more defensive value when Ramsay's defensive numbers were better and maintained over 80 games? Three, that they were even close in voting when one was the beneficiary of Montreal hype and dozens of nationally televised playoff games leading to cups, and the other was toiling in relative anonymity in Buffalo, how awesome does that look for the one player who was able to get recognition anywhere close to what Gainey received? Use your head here, if you had to pick, which one probably got underrated and which one probably got overrated? If you mentally adjust what the voting records say and then look at the statistical case it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Ramsay was better defensively.
and two-time ATD champ and master player evaluator Sturminator:

Quote:
In general, the effect of team situation/success, and national exposure/hype in voting totals needs to be considered in much more detail than we have thus far done in the ATD. This is not an exact science, but at the margins (and the defensive difference between Gainey and Ramsay is definitely marginal, whichever way one thinks it goes) it can make a rather large difference in how players are viewed by the voters.

Gainey is in the Hall of Fame for what his team did in the playoffs. Yeah, he had one great postseason individually, but that's not why he's in the hall. Swap their teams and there's a good chance Ramsay the Hab is the one that ends up in the hall. Guys like Gainey never make the hall (except for flat-out bad picks like Laprade) without playing on great teams, because defensive contributions are historically valued only in the context of winning.
But as you said, whichever way it goes, it has to be very close.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
the major weakness in Ramsay's career was that he was one of the first player's from the seventies to retire when the short shift game became a factor starting with the 1984-85 season, while Bob Gainey lasted the longest amongst the forwards effective to the end.
This is INCREDIBLY ridiculous and ignores the fact that Gainey was two year younger than Ramsay. Calling them both "player's from the seventies" is intellectually dishonest if you're attempting to point to "year of retirement" as evidence of anything.

When Ramsay retired in 1985 at age 33, there were 4 forwards listed as age 34 or older in the NHL who played at least 60 games.

When Gainey retired in 1989 at age 35, there was one older full-time forward. Wow, such a difference. I can't believe I'm reading a straight-faced argument about a player who retired as the 5th-oldest forward in the league, criticizing him for his lack of longevity as a result of failing to adjust to the game.

His high placement in selke voting throughout the 80s, and his win in 1985, sure point to a player who couldn't cut it in the new "short shift" game, eh?

Gainey, meanwhile, was finished as a major selke threat starting at age 29 in 1983, peaking at 6th in voting and 26 voting points. Does this mean he couldn't play the short shift game?

Quote:
Craig Ramsey never was chosen to represent Canada in a best against best tournament:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...ramsacr01.html

while Bob Gainey played on 4 Team Canada squads including the 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gainebo01.html
and why do we care that he played in world championships?

Quote:
Finally, overpass showed previously that Craig Ramsay was not as effective on the regulation NHL rink as he was on the smaller Buffalo rink. Bob Gainey was equally effective on all rinks including the larger International rink - evidenced by his WHC results.
No, overpass did not show this. Overpass has shown that he was less effective offensively on other rinks. Which, it should be noted, goes against conventional wisdom that says the smaller home rink always limited offense.

the stats do not exist to show whether Ramsay was achieving any better defensive results at home, but putting together the puzzle as I did above, it does not appear to have made more than about a 6% difference over and above how good the average player should be expected to be at home.

Here is what overpass has actually said on the subject over the years. Note that he never mentions the line being disproportionately stronger defensively at home, only offensively:

Oldest to newest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=17498867&postcount=715
Gainey and Ramsay are very comparable, playing the same position in the same role in the same era. Very few of those disclaimers should apply, except for possibly quality of linemates....

As you say, the Montreal/Buffalo issue is a factor with regards to Gainey/Ramsay and their reputations at the time. Contemporary opinion regarded Ramsay as the second best defensive forward of the era, according to Selke votes. As their careers become history, looking back it's a lot easier to remember the winners than the losers. Gainey was on a dynasty team, Ramsay wasn't, and that makes a big difference, I think.

As for Perreault, that's a subject which interests me and is honestly a bit of a mystery to me. Looking at plus-minus, either unadjusted or adjusted and broken down into components, it appears that the Ramsay-Luce-Gare line was far more effective than the Martin-Perreault-Robert line at outscoring their opponents at even strength. In fact, Ramsay, Luce, and Gare essentially scored at the same rate as Martin and Robert at even strength (Perreault was clearly the best scorer of the group.) Also consider that Ramsay's line was matched against the opposition's top line and that if anyone was placed in tougher defensive situations, it was them. Ramsay and Luce also excelled on the penalty kill, providing value here to match what Perreault and co. brought on the power play.

Why then was Perreault and his line so much more highly regarded? I think that Ramsay, Luce, and Gare were underrated at the time and Perreault, Robert, and Martin were overrated, especially the latter two. In any case, it's probably the biggest disconnect between the stats and the reputation that I've seen. In most cases, the stats and the reputation are fairly close, but not here. I'm open to ideas of biases that may skew the stats, but I think it's just a case of defensive players on losing teams being forgotten, while the scoring stats are the ones that people notice.

Regarding Gainey and Ramsay's stats, I don't think Gainey's stats are bad. Many top defensive forwards don't have a great plus-minus because they were placed in tough defensive situations a lot of the time. Considering Gainey's reputation, I've got no doubt that he was one of the all-time greats as a defensive forward. The really impressive thing to me is how good Ramsay's stats were, as well as Luce's and Gare's while they played with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=17496710&postcount=704
Gainey and Ramsay are as comparable as two players get, playing the same position, the same role, in the same era. Gainey and Ramsay had similar numbers of on-ice goals against. Ramsay had significantly more on-ice goals for, and scored more points himself. Gainey outscored opponents by far less than his teammates did; Ramsay outscored opponents by far more than his teammates did. Their penalty killing results were similar, but Gainey had a far superior goalie and defence corps behind him.

I'm fully aware that quantifying hockey games is a difficult and imprecise task, but the weight of the statistical evidence is so far on Ramsay's side that I almost can't imagine how Gainey could be better than Ramsay. The only possibility I can see is that Don Luce was a completely unappreciated Henri Richard clone and Doug Jarvis was actually a no-talent Kelly Buchberger type who dragged Gainey down his whole career. I don't think that's the case.

As for the quotes and reputation that Gainey gets...sportswriters are storytellers first, analysts second (or maybe third or fifth or tenth). The best stories have winners in them, so Gainey has the edge right from the start because he was on a winning team. Also, Gainey was a player that you had to understand the game to appreciate. As a result, writers end up overrating him. "See how highly I rate Bob Gainey? It's because I really understand hockey!" I really don't trust the writers of the time that much in their evaluations of players.

The quotes from teammates and coaches mean more, but teammates and coaches aren't critical and objective observers either. When they're asked about Gainey, of course they're going to say that he was great. They may even resort to hyperbole. If someone says that he was the most important player to the dynasty, I can't believe that's a considered statement, and that they would rather play without Guy Lafleur than Bob Gainey. I think they're just making a point.

In fact, I think the stats are more reliable and need less interpretation than the contemporary quotes when comparing Gainey and Ramsay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=21083030&postcount=11
Buffalo had a second line that was dominant at even-strength. Ramsay, Luce, and Gare drove Buffalo's success during those years at least as much as Perreault's line did, and probably more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=19969252&postcount=48
My thoughts on Ramsay vs Gainey are not too different from seventieslord,
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=19958443&postcount=4
I'd put contemporary Craig Ramsay ahead. Ramsay had far better individual results on worse Buffalo teams playing a similar role to Gainey
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=27115798&postcount=15
I won't say Ramsay was better than Gainey defensively for sure, in large part because Bowman and others speak so highly of Gainey. Ramsay's numbers are so good, though, I have to think he is at least underrated by history as a defensive forward.

It's also worth noting that Buffalo was the best penalty killing team over Ramsay's career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=39731397&postcount=68
the Ramsay-Luce-Gare line's GF/GA ratio was probably a lot better at home, as they scored a lot more points at home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=29075781&postcount=129
the Ramsay-Luce-Gare line scored quite a bit more at home, and the French Connection did not. This suggests that Ramsay, Luce, and Gare's game, which was based on forechecking, forcing turnovers, and strong defensive play, was a better fit for their small home rink than the French Connection's skating and skill-based game.
Quote:
Regardless of the attempts to bridge the gap between the two, Bob Gainey was the vastly superior defensive LW. Two other LWs - Bob Pulford and Gilles Tremblay would rate above Craig Ramsay below Bob Gainey, as would two position players like Alex Delvecchio plus a number of post 1980s LWs.
This is funny. You have said yourself this just 2 years ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=27116684&postcount=19
Still Craig Ramsay merits serious HHOF consideration - more than he has been accorded.
You can't and don't truly believe that Gilles Tremblay was better defensively than Gainey, or you'd have never said the above. You're just throwing out names that come to mind now, to make Ramsay appear less impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=28754491&postcount=68
Regarding Ramsay's home/road issue, I ran some numbers some time ago in another thread and found that Ramsay scored about 30% more at even strength at home than on the road. I don't have any direct info on home/road plus-minus, but even strength scoring is a component of plus-minus. Based on that I think it's likely that Ramsay had a much better plus-minus at home than on the road, more than the usual home/road differential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...well Mike, I think we'll just let nature takes its course with respect to the claim that Gainey & Ramsay belong in the "same conversation" and let other posters have at er'. You can see & read for yourself how the ranks of my "one sided claim" seem to be filling up with recruits, and as the Enlistment Office only opened a few short hours ago, I expect many more will be appearing to further edify & enlighten those amongst us who apparently never actually saw Mr. Ramsay on a pair of skates or if they did, it was whilst he was figure skating in an old timers game for the benefit of the Shrine Circus or in a commercial for Grecian Formula For Men.
I'll tell you what. You start a thread about how no one is allowed to comment on players that they didn't see play during their adult years, and I'll be sure to sticky that for you, mmmkay?

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11-01-2012, 11:38 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I said that Ramsay seemed to rely more on his linemates because he pretty much always played with Luce (and usually Gare), right? Whereas I have seen it written (including on this site) that Gainey was moved around the Montreal lineup.

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11-02-2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I said that Ramsay seemed to rely more on his linemates because he pretty much always played with Luce (and usually Gare), right? Whereas I have seen it written (including on this site) that Gainey was moved around the Montreal lineup.
I don't recall seeing this said very often, or at all, but my memory must be failing me...

From 1975-1980, that line was together, but Ramsay had three excellent seasons before that and five after. Luce and Gare had worse (defensive) results without him - his didn't get any worse. (reminds me of the whole "Lemieux will get his points no matter what, but Bob Errey's point totals will fluctuate" point, but about defense)

Gainey was said to play with Roberts and Jarvis; that is what I see described as his "classic" line most often. After that it was Carbo.

It should not be difficult to see how often Gainey played with multiple lines and if it separated him from similar defensive wingers like Ramsay, Marcotte, etc. Just use the HSP and see how often he collaborated on ESP with different players. Then check a few more similar players and see if they always seemed to be joined at the hip with two other forwards or if their point distributions were proportionally similar.

overpass' ears must really be ringing by now, so maybe he can come in here and work his magic.

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11-02-2012, 04:36 AM
  #125
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Bob Gainey II

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gainey was more visible. He was bigger, faster, and more physical. His team was the Habs, and his teams won. A lot.


This is INCREDIBLY ridiculous and ignores the fact that Gainey was two year younger than Ramsay. Calling them both "player's from the seventies" is intellectually dishonest if you're attempting to point to "year of retirement" as evidence of anything.

When Ramsay retired in 1985 at age 33, there were 4 forwards listed as age 34 or older in the NHL who played at least 60 games.

When Gainey retired in 1989 at age 35, there was one older full-time forward. Wow, such a difference. I can't believe I'm reading a straight-faced argument about a player who retired as the 5th-oldest forward in the league, criticizing him for his lack of longevity as a result of failing to adjust to the game.

His high placement in selke voting throughout the 80s, and his win in 1985, sure point to a player who couldn't cut it in the new "short shift" game, eh?

Gainey, meanwhile, was finished as a major selke threat starting at age 29 in 1983, peaking at 6th in voting and 26 voting points. Does this mean he couldn't play the short shift game?



and why do we care that he played in world championships?



No, overpass did not show this. Overpass has shown that he was less effective offensively on other rinks. Which, it should be noted, goes against conventional wisdom that says the smaller home rink always limited offense.

the stats do not exist to show whether Ramsay was achieving any better defensive results at home, but putting together the puzzle as I did above, it does not appear to have made more than about a 6% difference over and above how good the average player should be expected to be at home.

Here is what overpass has actually said on the subject over the years. Note that he never mentions the line being disproportionately stronger defensively at home, only offensively:

Oldest to newest.

This is funny. You have said yourself this just 2 years ago:



You can't and don't truly believe that Gilles Tremblay was better defensively than Gainey, or you'd have never said the above. You're just throwing out names that come to mind now, to make Ramsay appear less impressive.


I'll tell you what. You start a thread about how no one is allowed to comment on players that they didn't see play during their adult years, and I'll be sure to sticky that for you, mmmkay?
Gainey was bigger, faster and more physical. This advantage, admitted by you, covers the big net advantage that Bob Gainey had on Craig Ramsay. Goes a long way to explaining why Craig Ramsay retired at 33. Three attributes required by the short shift game.

If you look at Selke voting after 1981 - Gainey's last win and 1991when Dirk Graham won, you will notice tha outside of Ramsay in 1985 the winners were all centers, reflecting how the game had changed. Gretzky, Lemieux and the high scoring centers of the eighties plus the arrival of the short shift game changed the defensive emphasis to the center position. Ramsay in 1985 was an anomaly reflecting the early success of Tom Barrasso - Vezina and Jennings in successive seasons.Ramsay retired in 1985 so he did not have high Selke placement throughout the 1980s as you claim.

Your appreciation of the small rink factor is rather interesting. Starting with the post Red Line era that opened offence in the NHL, small rinks have always featured offence - late 40's Hawks, Hull/Mikita/ Pilote Hawks, Orr thru Bourque Bruins, French Connection thru Lafontaine/ Mogilny Sabres. Do not know which conventional wisdom you are referring to as the facts simply contradict your claim.

The issue is a player being able to play defense on the various rink dimensions.The problem with Craig Ramsay is that he was not as good defensively on the larger rinks as he was on the small Buffalo rink. This was illustrated by Rick Middleton of the Bruins who could play offence on the small rink - Boston and dominated the Sabres and Ramsay whereas in multiple confrontations with Bob Gainey and the Canadiens Middleton was played to a statistical standstill by Gainey. Bruins won one series against Montreal with Rick Middleton - 1988 after Cam Neely joined the team and Middleton was the second RW.

Conversely Bob Gainey could play defence on rinks of all dimensions including International dimensions - WHC. The contrast between his success against Rick Middleton vs Craig Ramsay is the most telling point. Furthermare after losing only one series to the Bruins in eight, the Canadiens after Gainey retired lost three series in a row to the Bruins since they no longer had a shutdown LW to play against the Bourque/ Neely combination on the RHS of the rink.

I posted that Gilles Tremblay was better than Craig Ramsay but not as good as Bob Gainey. Already established that Craig Ramsay could not play against a RW the quality of Rick Middleton. Gilles Tremblay was very effective against Gordie Howe - see 1966 SC Finals as a prime example. Bob Pulford was also very effective against Gordie Howe. Playing effectively against Gordie Howe trumps playing ineffectively against Rick Middleton.

Your appreciation of the short shift game should go beyond simple age counting. Gainey at age 35 was effective in series up to seven consecutive games, against power forwards like Cam Neely, Rick Tocchet. Craig Ramsay retired in 1985 after the Sabres lost to the Nordiques in another playoff defensive meltdown - 22GA in 5 games.

Craig Ramsay deserving HHOF consideration is far from advocating his enshrinement.

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