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Old
11-01-2012, 11:29 PM
  #51
DirtyDion03
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
It is no wonder we finish where we do. Kadri was ready and is an upgrade over Connelly. The fact that Wilson did not like him should never had been part of the equation.

Komi got way more than market value, he also got a NMC as well. I do not mind Komi but at 4.5 it is a joke.

Franson is a RFA but he is not signed for this year and is the only roster player who is not.

I would also like to throw in the resigning of Liles to a new 4 year deal...again not at all a great signing with his NTC (modified) . Poor asset management is a huge issue with Burke. Kadri, Franson, Aulie are prime examples.
Lol wow.

Kadri is ready? Eakins is still having problems with his game in the AHL. He's not ready for the NHL. Not sure why you think he's ready, but professionals don't. Weird huh?

You've not proven in any way Komisarek got way more then market value. Earlier I mentioned Volchenkov got 4.25 million from the Devils. Similar player as Komisarek. Both went to free agency the same year. Signed deals very close in terms of time. Komisarek switched ships to the Leafs. He was definitely getting more money to come to Toronto, ontop of Montreal's offer. We got him for market value if you want to admit it or not. It's a fact, not your silly opinion.

So because Franson is the only roster player not signed so far when there's not even a season means it's a bad move? That doesn't make sense considering he's an RFA and again, only player in the whole league who is an RFA not signed.. Honestly.

Kadri is fine where he is. What happens with Franson is between Franson and the coach, not Burke. And Aulie got traded for a reason. We have a surplus of defensemen. Especially defensive ones. We had a lack for size up front with skill. Ashton is a very good player and he will only get better. Sure he didn't perform in the NHL last year, but he was forced to stay due to the call-up rule in the NHL. You're not using facts, but merely your poor opinions on why these signings are bad. Majority of these problems are fixed within the next year or two anyways and do NOT hinder the Leafs in the future at all.

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11-01-2012, 11:34 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
It is no wonder we finish where we do. Kadri was ready and is an upgrade over Connelly. The fact that Wilson did not like him should never had been part of the equation.
Kadri was not ready, and the Connolly signing had no impact on him anyway. The people who work with him know a lot better than you do.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Komi got way more than market value, he also got a NMC as well. I do not mind Komi but at 4.5 it is a joke.
Komisarek did not get more than market value. Other teams offered similar value. He got exactly his market value. Heck, even Montreal offered 20 million over 5 years earlier in the day to re-sign him.

And he has a limited NTC, not a NMC.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Franson is a RFA but he is not signed for this year and is the only roster player who is not.
There are multiple in the league that are RFAs and not signed. Some bigger names than Franson.

Either way, doesn't matter at all. He is still an asset in our possession that has value.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I would also like to throw in the resigning of Liles to a new 4 year deal...again not at all a great signing with his NTC (modified) . Poor asset management is a huge issue with Burke. Kadri, Franson, Aulie are prime examples.
Liles signed at a DISCOUNT to be with the Leafs. His cap hit is incredibly low for a player of his style and caliber.

And I don't see how Kadri, Franson and Aulie are in any way examples of poor asset management. Kadri is developing in the AHL and being given opportunities along the way. Franson played fewer minutes because Gardiner came out of nowhere and forced himself on the team, not because of mismanagement. That is a coaching issue anyway. Aulie was given prime opportunity (and Burke even traded Beauchemin for him), and when his development stalled, we made a trade from a position of great strength for an area of weakness.

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11-01-2012, 11:40 PM
  #53
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Ed Olczuk to Winnipeg, with Mark Osborne for Dave Ellett and Paul Fenton

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11-01-2012, 11:45 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Lol wow.

Kadri is ready? Eakins is still having problems with his game in the AHL. He's not ready for the NHL. Not sure why you think he's ready, but professionals don't. Weird huh?

You've not proven in any way Komisarek got way more then market value. Earlier I mentioned Volchenkov got 4.25 million from the Devils. Similar player as Komisarek. Both went to free agency the same year. Signed deals very close in terms of time. Komisarek switched ships to the Leafs. He was definitely getting more money to come to Toronto, ontop of Montreal's offer. We got him for market value if you want to admit it or not. It's a fact, not your silly opinion.

So because Franson is the only roster player not signed so far when there's not even a season means it's a bad move? That doesn't make sense considering he's an RFA and again, only player in the whole league who is an RFA not signed.. Honestly.

Kadri is fine where he is. What happens with Franson is between Franson and the coach, not Burke. And Aulie got traded for a reason. We have a surplus of defensemen. Especially defensive ones. We had a lack for size up front with skill. Ashton is a very good player and he will only get better. Sure he didn't perform in the NHL last year, but he was forced to stay due to the call-up rule in the NHL. You're not using facts, but merely your poor opinions on why these signings are bad. Majority of these problems are fixed within the next year or two anyways and do NOT hinder the Leafs in the future at all.
You post an opinion and state it's a fact and I post an opinion and it's a silly opinion.....he is over paid....he did get well over what he is worth....like it or not that is my opinion.

I'm also not the only person who felt that Kadri was ready last year....Cherry seems to believe that he is ready....and he has been around the game a lot longer than you.

What happens between a player and a coach is most definitely part of Burke's job....he has allowed his coaches to bad mouth players in the Media and that is part of the reason why there are so many issues with this team.....lack of leadership comes from the top down....and we are lacking leadership from the top down.

Ashton is an AHL player and in my opinion that is where he will play for the foreseeable future. Does not think the game well at all, and looks lost. His 15 games at the end of the season playing with some good players proved that he is no where near an NHL player at this time. It is all asset management and Burke has been poor to horrible in this regard. He knew the rule about the call up and yet he still tossed Ashton to the wolves.....Kadri should have been that player!

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11-01-2012, 11:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
You post an opinion and state it's a fact and I post an opinion and it's a silly opinion.....he is over paid....he did get well over what he is worth....like it or not that is my opinion.

I'm also not the only person who felt that Kadri was ready last year....Cherry seems to believe that he is ready....and he has been around the game a lot longer than you.

What happens between a player and a coach is most definitely part of Burke's job....he has allowed his coaches to bad mouth players in the Media and that is part of the reason why there are so many issues with this team.....lack of leadership comes from the top down....and we are lacking leadership from the top down.

Ashton is an AHL player and in my opinion that is where he will play for the foreseeable future. Does not think the game well at all, and looks lost. His 15 games at the end of the season playing with some good players proved that he is no where near an NHL player at this time. It is all asset management and Burke has been poor to horrible in this regard. He knew the rule about the call up and yet he still tossed Ashton to the wolves.....Kadri should have been that player!
Players needed moved for Kadri to move up. I agree he should have got his spot. Armstrong was the blocking party all along as Kadri should be learning on the third.

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11-01-2012, 11:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Kadri was not ready, and the Connolly signing had no impact on him anyway. The people who work with him know a lot better than you do.


Komisarek did not get more than market value. Other teams offered similar value. He got exactly his market value. Heck, even Montreal offered 20 million over 5 years earlier in the day to re-sign him.

And he has a limited NTC, not a NMC.


There are multiple in the league that are RFAs and not signed. Some bigger names than Franson.

Either way, doesn't matter at all. He is still an asset in our possession that has value.


Liles signed at a DISCOUNT to be with the Leafs. His cap hit is incredibly low for a player of his style and caliber.

And I don't see how Kadri, Franson and Aulie are in any way examples of poor asset management. Kadri is developing in the AHL and being given opportunities along the way. Franson played fewer minutes because Gardiner came out of nowhere and forced himself on the team, not because of mismanagement. That is a coaching issue anyway. Aulie was given prime opportunity (and Burke even traded Beauchemin for him), and when his development stalled, we made a trade from a position of great strength for an area of weakness.
Komi has a NMC and a limited NTC. He is over paid based on performance.....

Liles signed at a discount? Really a concussed player has a lot of value.

Aulie's development did not stall.....I know why he was traded and it had nothing to do with his stalled development.

Fanson should never have missed the amount of games that he did this past year and that is poor asset management. He was not the 7th D man on that group....if it is not poor asset management then what would you call it?

Connelly, Lombo both took up roster space that could have been better used to develop players.....poor asset management!

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11-01-2012, 11:57 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
You post an opinion and state it's a fact and I post an opinion and it's a silly opinion.....he is over paid....he did get well over what he is worth....like it or not that is my opinion.
Except yours in an opinion, and his is fact. Multiple other teams offered similar amounts, meaning that was his market value. You can argue that he isn't worth it or he sucks now all you want, but at the time, that was his market value.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I'm also not the only person who felt that Kadri was ready last year....Cherry seems to believe that he is ready....and he has been around the game a lot longer than you.
Cherry also has no contact or knowledge of the situation. The people who are around Kadri every day know better than you. Cherry has been out of the game for a long, long time as well, and for good reason. He makes some good points, but his methods are outdated. People don't watch Don Cherry because he gives good hockey knowledge. They watch him because it's funny to see an old, senile man rant and rave. (dangnabbit, get off my lawn!)

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
What happens between a player and a coach is most definitely part of Burke's job....he has allowed his coaches to bad mouth players in the Media and that is part of the reason why there are so many issues with this team.....lack of leadership comes from the top down....and we are lacking leadership from the top down.
It is not a GM's job to micromanage. Our coaches have not bad-mouthed our players in the media any more than other teams (or really at all), and that is saying something considering our media.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Ashton is an AHL player and in my opinion that is where he will play for the foreseeable future. Does not think the game well at all, and looks lost. His 15 games at the end of the season playing with some good players proved that he is no where near an NHL player at this time. It is all asset management and Burke has been poor to horrible in this regard. He knew the rule about the call up and yet he still tossed Ashton to the wolves.....Kadri should have been that player!
Once again, your opinion that Ashton is an AHL player (or that Aulie is not) is not supported by any facts. He did not play with good players towards the end, it was his first time in the NHL, and the entire team was in a free-fall.

And it is Burke's well-respected policy to give young players a taste of the NHL (not to mention that Ashton better fit the role that was being filled). That is why Ashton stayed up, and he showed glimpses.

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Old
11-02-2012, 12:12 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Except yours in an opinion, and his is fact. Multiple other teams offered similar amounts, meaning that was his market value. You can argue that he isn't worth it or he sucks now all you want, but at the time, that was his market value.


Cherry also has no contact or knowledge of the situation. The people who are around Kadri every day know better than you. Cherry has been out of the game for a long, long time as well, and for good reason. He makes some good points, but his methods are outdated. People don't watch Don Cherry because he gives good hockey knowledge. They watch him because it's funny to see an old, senile man rant and rave. (dangnabbit, get off my lawn!)


It is not a GM's job to micromanage. Our coaches have not bad-mouthed our players in the media any more than other teams (or really at all), and that is saying something considering our media.


Once again, your opinion that Ashton is an AHL player (or that Aulie is not) is not supported by any facts. He did not play with good players towards the end, it was his first time in the NHL, and the entire team was in a free-fall.

And it is Burke's well-respected policy to give young players a taste of the NHL (not to mention that Ashton better fit the role that was being filled). That is why Ashton stayed up, and he showed glimpses.
You really can not stand the fact that my opinion differs with you and others.

As far as Burke micro managing......that is all he does....you even admitted it in your posts when you state that Burke always likes to give young players a taste of the NHL....I thought that player decisions is the coaches.....

He also allowed coaches to undermine the goalie coach...with his consent.....so micro manage he does.

Cherry know a lot more then you and others and has a good grasp of what is going on. Maybe if you listened you would learn some knowledge......he is senile .....supporting our troops like that...ranting about how our men give up their life's for Canada. He must be off his rocker. He called for Wilson's firing long before everyone did.....and now all of you Burke supporters are using Wilson as an excuse for the teams poor performance.....so I guess that he is not at all as senile as you make him out to be.

Our coaches should never bad mouth their players in the Media.....I could not care less if other orgs do this or not.

Oh and I used facts when I stated that Komi had a NMC .....
You can not suck and blow at the same time!

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11-02-2012, 12:15 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Komi has a NMC and a limited NTC. He is over paid based on performance.....
He is overpaid for what he brings NOW. He was not overpaid at the time. He got market value.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Liles signed at a discount? Really a concussed player has a lot of value.
Do you understand how many players have had concussions? Probably half the league at some point by now.

Yes, Liles signed at a discount to play with Toronto. He even flat-out said so.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Aulie's development did not stall.....I know why he was traded and it had nothing to do with his stalled development.
Yes, Aulie's development did stall. Or rather regressed. He went from top-pairing defenseman (though not really belonging there, he did fine) to playing badly in the AHL. And he was exactly the same on a team with worse defence than us.

If you know the "real" reason why he was traded, better than the people that traded him and the obvious, why don't you share it with us so that we can all laugh at you and your unwarranted ego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Fanson should never have missed the amount of games that he did this past year and that is poor asset management. He was not the 7th D man on that group....if it is not poor asset management then what would you call it?
He wasn't 7th. He was 6th in GP, overall TOI, and TOI/game.

It is called having more defenseman than you were expecting because of rapid development of a prospect.

Quote:
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Connelly, Lombo both took up roster space that could have been better used to develop players.....poor asset management!
No, they didn't, and there is zero proof of that.

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11-02-2012, 12:20 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
He is overpaid for what he brings NOW. He was not overpaid at the time. He got market value.


Do you understand how many players have had concussions? Probably half the league at some point by now.

Yes, Liles signed at a discount to play with Toronto. He even flat-out said so.


Yes, Aulie's development did stall. Or rather regressed. He went from top-pairing defenseman (though not really belonging there, he did fine) to playing badly in the AHL. And he was exactly the same on a team with worse defence than us.

If you know the "real" reason why he was traded, better than the people that traded him and the obvious, why don't you share it with us so that we can all laugh at you and your unwarranted ego.


He wasn't 7th. He was 6th in GP, overall TOI, and TOI/game.

It is called having more defenseman than you were expecting because of rapid development of a prospect.


No, they didn't, and there is zero proof of that.
So you have no facts......just like I though.....nothing but opinions....

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11-02-2012, 12:22 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
You really can not stand the fact that my opinion differs with you and others.

As far as Burke micro managing......that is all he does....you even admitted it in your posts when you state that Burke always likes to give young players a taste of the NHL....I thought that player decisions is the coaches.....

He also allowed coaches to undermine the goalie coach...with his consent.....so micro manage he does.

Cherry know a lot more then you and others and has a good grasp of what is going on. Maybe if you listened you would learn some knowledge......he is senile .....supporting our troops like that...ranting about how our men give up their life's for Canada. He must be off his rocker. He called for Wilson's firing long before everyone did.....and now all of you Burke supporters are using Wilson as an excuse for the teams poor performance.....so I guess that he is not at all as senile as you make him out to be.

Oh and I used facts when I stated that Komi had a NMC .....
You can not suck and blow at the same time!
Cherry is right and I hate to admit, quite often. Burke and his loyalty to Wilson cost this team 2 years maybe 3 in direction and development. Komi was brought in to play Burke hockey as he is the archtype D Burke wanted for his vision. Wilson had a different direction and we shipped out our assistant coaches brought in American run and gun, overload specialists etc. It made a mess, I was calling for Wilsons head before Cherry btw.

It was like a tug of war where Burke didnt bother pulling back with his buddy Wilson, very strange stuff.

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11-02-2012, 12:26 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
You really can not stand the fact that my opinion differs with you and others.
No, I can't stand the fact that you are dismissing facts, creating an opinion by ignoring it, and then calling your opinion fact.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
As far as Burke micro managing......that is all he does....you even admitted it in your posts when you state that Burke always likes to give young players a taste of the NHL....I thought that player decisions is the coaches.....
Where the player plays is the GM. How much or in what role the player plays in the coach's decision.

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He also allowed coaches to undermine the goalie coach...with his consent.....so micro manage he does.
Explain.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Cherry know a lot more then you and others and has a good grasp of what is going on. Maybe if you listened you would learn some knowledge......he is senile .....supporting our troops like that...ranting about how our men give up their life's for Canada. He must be off his rocker. He called for Wilson's firing long before everyone did.....and now all of you Burke supporters are using Wilson as an excuse for the teams poor performance.....so I guess that he is not at all as senile as you make him out to be.
I watch Don Cherry all the time. I enjoy it. I also am smart enough to take what he says with a grain of salt.

And talking about troops non-stop on a hockey program is approaching senile territory, yes. Ranting and raving about something the entire media world was saying does not change that.

Fact is, Don Cherry does not have all the facts with regard to Kadri. Neither do you. The people managing Kadri do.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Our coaches should never bad mouth their players in the Media.....I could not care less if other orgs do this or not.
Like it or not, sometimes it is a strategy. Most other times it is media spin.

I actually can't remember our coach bad-mouthing a player.

This is also not something that a GM has control over. When it does happen with any team, it is usually an emotional response after a loss.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Oh and I used facts when I stated that Komi had a NMC .....
You can not suck and blow at the same time!
I misread the details at first, but while Komisarek has a NMC, it is not a NMC in the sense we all know. He can submit a list of 12 teams he can't be traded to. The NMC only means that he can't be sent down, which is pretty much meaningless.

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11-02-2012, 12:30 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
So you have no facts......just like I though.....nothing but opinions....
Um... no. Stop dodging the points.

Market value. Fact.
Liles discount. Fact.
An enormous number of players have had concussions. Fact.
Aulie's development stalled. Fact.
His situation remained relatively the same once traded. Fact.
You aren't sharing this magical unknown reason that only you know that Aulie was traded. Fact.
Franson was 6th in GP, overall TOI, and TOI/game. Fact.
Gardiner's emergence was the reason Franson was not guaranteed a spot from the get-go. Fact.
You have no proof that Kadri was ready. Fact.

Pretty much all I posted were facts.

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11-02-2012, 12:39 AM
  #64
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Sometimes its the trades you don't notice that are the best in hindsight.

I like Grabovski for Greg Pateryn (???) and a pick that became Jared Knight (???). Seems like a good trade to me.

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11-02-2012, 12:54 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Um... no. Stop dodging the points.

Market value. Fact.
Liles discount. Fact.
An enormous number of players have had concussions. Fact.
Aulie's development stalled. Fact.
His situation remained relatively the same once traded. Fact.
You aren't sharing this magical unknown reason that only you know that Aulie was traded. Fact.
Franson was 6th in GP, overall TOI, and TOI/game. Fact.
Gardiner's emergence was the reason Franson was not guaranteed a spot from the get-go. Fact.
You have no proof that Kadri was ready. Fact.

Pretty much all I posted were facts.
[/QUOTE]

Please provide a link to support all your opinions....I mean facts.

I posted that Komi signing was a poor decision .....and I believe that not many people would disagree with me. He is over paid in my opinion. Burke I signed Komi for his toughness as he wanted a tough team yet he kept a coach who did not share the same philosophy....sure makes sense to me. Remember I was responding to the post that stated Burke only made one mistake and I simply pointed out others.

Liles was not a discount ......again you are not following your opinion opinion of market value posted in the Komi opinion of yours. Please at least stay consistent. Why would a GM sign a player to a contract while still not back in the line up while out with a concussion? A smart GM would wait until he is back healthy to see if he was at least capable of playing at the same level. One more thing....Liles can state that it was a discount all he wants but he did not get any other offers because if he did it would have been tampering as he was under contract. So he got market value.....my issue with this signing is that we do not need him. He is a soft puck moving D man.....who can play the PP.....Gardiner should take that role.....he is younger and better and it will only aid in his over all development.

I have posted the reason why Aulie was traded in other threads....so no need to rehash it here other then to say as I did that it was poor asset management.

Gardiner's development had nothing to do with Franson.....as this would have made him our 7th best D man.....and he simply was not.

As far as Kadri being ready....I told you it is my opinion that he was.....you have no proof that he was not ready, but this has not stopped you from stating it as a fact.

You seem to think you opinions are facts and I do not see any facts at all....only opinions.


Just to refresh here is the post that I wrote....and why


Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
BURKE is a great GM who made one mistake...Ron Wilson
Which one of the following do you not think are mistakes:

Komi
Orr
Exelby- Pavel Kubina& Tim Stapleton, For Garnet Exelby &Colin Stuart
Connelly
Lambo
Armstrong

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11-02-2012, 01:05 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Lol wow.

Kadri is ready? Eakins is still having problems with his game in the AHL. He's not ready for the NHL. Not sure why you think he's ready, but professionals don't. Weird huh?

You've not proven in any way Komisarek got way more then market value. Earlier I mentioned Volchenkov got 4.25 million from the Devils. Similar player as Komisarek. Both went to free agency the same year. Signed deals very close in terms of time. Komisarek switched ships to the Leafs. He was definitely getting more money to come to Toronto, ontop of Montreal's offer. We got him for market value if you want to admit it or not. It's a fact, not your silly opinion.

So because Franson is the only roster player not signed so far when there's not even a season means it's a bad move? That doesn't make sense considering he's an RFA and again, only player in the whole league who is an RFA not signed.. Honestly.

Kadri is fine where he is. What happens with Franson is between Franson and the coach, not Burke. And Aulie got traded for a reason. We have a surplus of defensemen. Especially defensive ones. We had a lack for size up front with skill. Ashton is a very good player and he will only get better. Sure he didn't perform in the NHL last year, but he was forced to stay due to the call-up rule in the NHL. You're not using facts, but merely your poor opinions on why these signings are bad. Majority of these problems are fixed within the next year or two anyways and do NOT hinder the Leafs in the future at all.
Ashton was TBL #2 Prospect according to THN 2 years ago.

So he isn't a scrub pick up. Decent 3rd - 4th liner in his prime years.

Better asset than Aulie who after failing to make the team out of Camp after such a good run as a rookie, was expendable with the depth at D the Leafs have.

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11-02-2012, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Please provide a link to support all your opinions....I mean facts.

I posted that Komi signing was a poor decision .....and I believe that not many people would disagree with me. He is over paid in my opinion. Burke I signed Komi for his toughness as he wanted a tough team yet he kept a coach who did not share the same philosophy....sure makes sense to me. Remember I was responding to the post that stated Burke only made one mistake and I simply pointed out others.

Liles was not a discount ......again you are not following your opinion opinion of market value posted in the Komi opinion of yours. Please at least stay consistent. Why would a GM sign a player to a contract while still not back in the line up while out with a concussion? A smart GM would wait until he is back healthy to see if he was at least capable of playing at the same level. One more thing....Liles can state that it was a discount all he wants but he did not get any other offers because if he did it would have been tampering as he was under contract. So he got market value.....my issue with this signing is that we do not need him. He is a soft puck moving D man.....who can play the PP.....Gardiner should take that role.....he is younger and better and it will only aid in his over all development.

I have posted the reason why Aulie was traded in other threads....so no need to rehash it here other then to say as I did that it was poor asset management.

Gardiner's development had nothing to do with Franson.....as this would have made him our 7th best D man.....and he simply was not.

As far as Kadri being ready....I told you it is my opinion that he was.....you have no proof that he was not ready, but this has not stopped you from stating it as a fact.

You seem to think you opinions are facts and I do not see any facts at all....only opinions.


Just to refresh here is the post that I wrote....and why


Quote:
Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
BURKE is a great GM who made one mistake...Ron Wilson
Which one of the following do you not think are mistakes:

Komi
Orr
Exelby- Pavel Kubina& Tim Stapleton, For Garnet Exelby &Colin Stuart
Connelly
Lambo
Armstrong
Lol you really grasp at straws. It's actually hard to believe that you post random blurbs what you think and say they are facts...

Wilson's choice was to go run & gun.. No one knows why. He didn't have the personel to do it and it was obvious Burke didn't want to do this with the signings of Beauchemin & Komisarek. Yes, the coach and the GM weren't on the same page but that doesn't mean you go out of your way to throw the player under the bus. When Komisarek signed at the time, again, I'll explain this to you. He got fair market value, WHEN HE WAS SIGNED. Sure in hindsight we can say it was a mistake because he hasn't produced anything but assists for the other team, but at the time, he was fair market value and he was a good, shut down defenseman, with leadership who was supposedly going to be named Montreal's captain. If adding him into the dressing room alone on a young squad doesn't help.. Not sure what else you want from Komisarek. Then for Wilson to have to audacity to throw him to the wolves, and play him in an offensive system is just ridiculous. Burke was far too committed to Wilson. Everyone knows this. But don't take away from the players. Reason for Komisarek: Provide leadership on the back-end, bring toughness, and shut down opposing players. (Thrown to the wolves by Wilson, improvement expected with Carlyle)

Last time I checked, we need more then 1 defenseman for the PP. Liles, Phaneuf, Gardiner, and Franson. That's 4. That takes up the PP. Who do you put there if Liles isn't there? Who gets the puck out of the zone? Who makes the end to end rushes? Not only that but when it comes playoff time, who can speak up in the locker room to say they've been there before? Concussion or not Liles can speak up. Sure the concussion is a negative but that doesn't mean he is done playing the game of hockey. Yes, he finished the season off weak, but he was just returning from injury. We missed Liles a lot when he was out, and he was a big part of this team. Gardiner is not ready for the minutes that Liles played. Reason for having Liles: Stop gap until Gardiner is ready for the big minutes of the NHL.

Again, Aulie was dealt from a position of strength (defense) and addresssed a position of weakness (weakness & high end forward prospects). People were raving about Ashton, his size and offensive ability before he came to Toronto. Just because he comes here, people write him off because he again, is thrown to the wolves.. Yes, it's not hard to see that Ashton isn't ready for the NHL minutes, but that doesn't mean he's done developing. Another reason to have a stop gap, enter Matthew Lombardi, Colby Armstrong, Tim Connolly.

The last three of the group are my favourite because you continue to avoid the actual reason they were brought in. Management (not Don Cherry..) felt that Kadri plus others were not ready for full-time NHL duty. (This includes everyones favourite Dallas Eakins). Colby Armstrong was brought in to provide again, leadership for a young squad, grind other teams and be a pest. He did his job, however, injuries got in the way. He was loved in the dressing room, loved by the fans, and we could only have hoped he had a better run here in terms of health. Connolly was our 2nd option for #1 centre coming out of the season. With Brad Richards being the big prize, everyone knew the Leafs needed to get a good centre. No one can argue that. People knew Kadri wasn't ready or else we wouldn't have been in Richards. No one knew Connolly would be this bad, if he were healthy. I'm not sure how you can say that Kadri's development is hindered by Connolly being here when Connolly has been playing third line minutes, which Kadri wouldn't even be playing. Reason for Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong: Stop gap until Kadri + other prospects are ready for NHL minutes.

Just because players aren't ready to play in the NHL and you want to rush them to play in the league doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You have professional opinion from people who work with these players day-in, day-out. Not a guy who sits and watches the game from his couch just like us.

Franson defintely faulted from Gardiner being better then we thought. With Gardiner in the line-up Franson didn't really fit in, in terms of which side of the ice he plays on. Pretty sure Franson plays the left side just like Liles, Gunnarsson and Gardiner did last year.

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11-02-2012, 02:08 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Lol you really grasp at straws. It's actually hard to believe that you post random blurbs what you think and say they are facts...

Wilson's choice was to go run & gun.. No one knows why. He didn't have the personel to do it and it was obvious Burke didn't want to do this with the signings of Beauchemin & Komisarek. Yes, the coach and the GM weren't on the same page but that doesn't mean you go out of your way to throw the player under the bus. When Komisarek signed at the time, again, I'll explain this to you. He got fair market value, WHEN HE WAS SIGNED. Sure in hindsight we can say it was a mistake because he hasn't produced anything but assists for the other team, but at the time, he was fair market value and he was a good, shut down defenseman, with leadership who was supposedly going to be named Montreal's captain. If adding him into the dressing room alone on a young squad doesn't help.. Not sure what else you want from Komisarek. Then for Wilson to have to audacity to throw him to the wolves, and play him in an offensive system is just ridiculous. Burke was far too committed to Wilson. Everyone knows this. But don't take away from the players. Reason for Komisarek: Provide leadership on the back-end, bring toughness, and shut down opposing players. (Thrown to the wolves by Wilson, improvement expected with Carlyle)

Last time I checked, we need more then 1 defenseman for the PP. Liles, Phaneuf, Gardiner, and Franson. That's 4. That takes up the PP. Who do you put there if Liles isn't there? Who gets the puck out of the zone? Who makes the end to end rushes? Not only that but when it comes playoff time, who can speak up in the locker room to say they've been there before? Concussion or not Liles can speak up. Sure the concussion is a negative but that doesn't mean he is done playing the game of hockey. Yes, he finished the season off weak, but he was just returning from injury. We missed Liles a lot when he was out, and he was a big part of this team. Gardiner is not ready for the minutes that Liles played. Reason for having Liles: Stop gap until Gardiner is ready for the big minutes of the NHL.

Again, Aulie was dealt from a position of strength (defense) and addresssed a position of weakness (weakness & high end forward prospects). People were raving about Ashton, his size and offensive ability before he came to Toronto. Just because he comes here, people write him off because he again, is thrown to the wolves.. Yes, it's not hard to see that Ashton isn't ready for the NHL minutes, but that doesn't mean he's done developing. Another reason to have a stop gap, enter Matthew Lombardi, Colby Armstrong, Tim Connolly.

The last three of the group are my favourite because you continue to avoid the actual reason they were brought in. Management (not Don Cherry..) felt that Kadri plus others were not ready for full-time NHL duty. (This includes everyones favourite Dallas Eakins). Colby Armstrong was brought in to provide again, leadership for a young squad, grind other teams and be a pest. He did his job, however, injuries got in the way. He was loved in the dressing room, loved by the fans, and we could only have hoped he had a better run here in terms of health. Connolly was our 2nd option for #1 centre coming out of the season. With Brad Richards being the big prize, everyone knew the Leafs needed to get a good centre. No one can argue that. People knew Kadri wasn't ready or else we wouldn't have been in Richards. No one knew Connolly would be this bad, if he were healthy. I'm not sure how you can say that Kadri's development is hindered by Connolly being here when Connolly has been playing third line minutes, which Kadri wouldn't even be playing. Reason for Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong: Stop gap until Kadri + other prospects are ready for NHL minutes.

Just because players aren't ready to play in the NHL and you want to rush them to play in the league doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You have professional opinion from people who work with these players day-in, day-out. Not a guy who sits and watches the game from his couch just like us.

Franson defintely faulted from Gardiner being better then we thought. With Gardiner in the line-up Franson didn't really fit in, in terms of which side of the ice he plays on. Pretty sure Franson plays the left side just like Liles, Gunnarsson and Gardiner did last year.
Quote:
Lol you really grasp at straws. It's actually hard to believe that you post random blurbs what you think and say they are facts...
Please show me where I presented my opinion as fact......you are the one making BS up and then tell me I'm grasping at straws.....

I posted my opinion and stated them as such.....

If you can not posted a post from this thread that I stated that the items I posted are facts.....then stop lying....it devalues anything else you post and is needless nonsense.

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11-02-2012, 04:45 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Sometimes its the trades you don't notice that are the best in hindsight.

I like Grabovski for Greg Pateryn (???) and a pick that became Jared Knight (???). Seems like a good trade to me.
I believe it was just Pateryn. Knight was part of the Kessel trade

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11-02-2012, 05:26 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I posted that Komi signing was a poor decision .....and I believe that not many people would disagree with me. He is over paid in my opinion. Burke I signed Komi for his toughness as he wanted a tough team yet he kept a coach who did not share the same philosophy....sure makes sense to me. Remember I was responding to the post that stated Burke only made one mistake and I simply pointed out others.
You said Komisarek did not sign for market value. Other teams offered similar amounts, which means he signed for the very definition of market value.

Saying he is overpaid now is entirely different.

Ron Wilson is not only a run-and-gun coach. That is how he coached the Leafs. And being a run-and-gun team doesn't mean you don't need defensive players. Komisarek was just not able to adapt to that style. Neither was a lot of the team, which is why Wilson was fired once players were in place that he should have been able to work with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Liles was not a discount ......again you are not following your opinion opinion of market value posted in the Komi opinion of yours. Please at least stay consistent. Why would a GM sign a player to a contract while still not back in the line up while out with a concussion? A smart GM would wait until he is back healthy to see if he was at least capable of playing at the same level. One more thing....Liles can state that it was a discount all he wants but he did not get any other offers because if he did it would have been tampering as he was under contract. So he got market value.....my issue with this signing is that we do not need him. He is a soft puck moving D man.....who can play the PP.....Gardiner should take that role.....he is younger and better and it will only aid in his over all development.
How am I not following market value? Komisarek was a UFA, which means multiple teams were able to make offers, and they did. He also signed for the going rate of his type of player.

Liles was re-signed to an extension. Which means no other teams were offering at the time. He signed for less than the going UFA rate for his style and caliber of defenseman, in order to stay with the Leafs, and he essentially said so to reporters.

Quote:
He could've tested the free-agent waters this summer, but there was never a doubt in John-Michael Liles' mind where wanted to play hockey.

The 31-year-old defenceman signed a US$15.5-million, four-year extension with the Toronto Maple Leafs on Wednesday. Liles says he's pleased to be staying with the Leafs, who acquired him in a trade at the draft with the Colorado Avalanche.

Liles has four goals and 21 points in 34 games this season and is more than good with the notion he might've passed up a more lucrative deal as a free agent.

"Some guys choose to go the unrestricted route but it's a pretty special feeling when Burkie (Leafs GM Brian Burke) went out and traded for me and knowing that he wants me there for years to come," Liles said during a conference call. "As far as money goes, you could say that you leave some on the table. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't ... but I'm looking at it as I was negotiating a contract to stay in a place I wanted to be and play on a team I wanted to play on and live in a city I wanted to live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I have posted the reason why Aulie was traded in other threads....so no need to rehash it here other then to say as I did that it was poor asset management.
Oh, so you bring it up, but you can't back it up? I don't care what you wrote in another thread. Let's hear this magical reason that only you know.

Even if there was another reason other than stalled development and trading strength for weakness (and there isn't), Aulie never would have gotten another opportunity with our depth anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Gardiner's development had nothing to do with Franson.....as this would have made him our 7th best D man.....and he simply was not.
What are you spouting about?

Without Gardiner stepping up, Franson is our 5th (maybe 4th and used more on the PP) defenseman. With him, he was still our 6th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
As far as Kadri being ready....I told you it is my opinion that he was.....you have no proof that he was not ready, but this has not stopped you from stating it as a fact.
Well, other than his production being less than spectacular, and watching him, no, there is no post-able proof on my end either. However, you are the one questioning what happened, so you are the one with burden to prove it should have happened differently.

If neither of us have proof, then we must take the opinion of the professionals who work with him daily and know all the facts. And they said he wasn't ready.

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11-02-2012, 08:08 AM
  #71
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This thread sucks now. You peeps stay on topic!

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11-02-2012, 08:57 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
You said Komisarek did not sign for market value. Other teams offered similar amounts, which means he signed for the very definition of market value.

Saying he is overpaid now is entirely different.

Ron Wilson is not only a run-and-gun coach. That is how he coached the Leafs. And being a run-and-gun team doesn't mean you don't need defensive players. Komisarek was just not able to adapt to that style. Neither was a lot of the team, which is why Wilson was fired once players were in place that he should have been able to work with.


How am I not following market value? Komisarek was a UFA, which means multiple teams were able to make offers, and they did. He also signed for the going rate of his type of player.

Liles was re-signed to an extension. Which means no other teams were offering at the time. He signed for less than the going UFA rate for his style and caliber of defenseman, in order to stay with the Leafs, and he essentially said so to reporters.




Oh, so you bring it up, but you can't back it up? I don't care what you wrote in another thread. Let's hear this magical reason that only you know.

Even if there was another reason other than stalled development and trading strength for weakness (and there isn't), Aulie never would have gotten another opportunity with our depth anyway.


What are you spouting about?

Without Gardiner stepping up, Franson is our 5th (maybe 4th and used more on the PP) defenseman. With him, he was still our 6th.


Well, other than his production being less than spectacular, and watching him, no, there is no post-able proof on my end either. However, you are the one questioning what happened, so you are the one with burden to prove it should have happened differently.

If neither of us have proof, then we must take the opinion of the professionals who work with him daily and know all the facts. And they said he wasn't ready.
Kadri was less than spectacular and Connelly/Lambo were.....that is my point. No need to pay Connelly the money they did as they should have given a young prospect the ice time...aid in the players development.

Can you not get that Franson was mishandled.....he was used as the 7th D-man and he was not the 7th d-man. You make a trade for a young player and then you proceed to devalue him as well as to take away his confidence.....like I stated poor asset management....that was my point and still is.

The Komi signing was a mistake at the amount of money that they paid him.....that was my point and still is and yet you only state that he got fair market value....someone else should have been paying him the 4.5 million that Burke paid him. Over paid and a mistake as he has a NMC so we could not bury him like we did with Finger.....we could not trade him as no one would take on that contract.

Liles signing no matter how you spin it was more than fair market value and not at all a good decision in my opinion. He was still out of the line up with a concussion when he was extended.

If we continue to sign players who are not going to be part of turning the team around and take up roster spots, just how are we going to improve. Liles is a soft D man who is not part of the solution and he needs to be replaced if we are to improve....

Your claim that Aulie's development was stalled is funny. He played 40 games the year before and was only a minus 1 playing against the opponents top players and you state his develop stalled...it does not past the sniff test.

As for why Aulie was traded.....pm sent/

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11-02-2012, 09:50 AM
  #73
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Ya that blockbuster of Sundin, McCabe and Tucker for ...
$1M that's still counting against our cap for 2 more seasons.

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11-02-2012, 10:26 AM
  #74
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Ron Wilson For Randy Carlye. How Burke managed that always puzzled me.

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11-02-2012, 10:52 AM
  #75
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This was the kind of post I was hoping for
Well then, seeing as its your thread topic idea..

My answer would be ..

February 10, 1960: Leonard "Red" Kelly - traded to Toronto by Detroit for Marc Reaume, February 10, 1960.

When former All-Star Norris winning defenceman Red Kelly was suspended by the Detroit Red Wings for refusing a trade to New York, Imlach offered his spare defenceman Marc Reaume to Detroit for Kelly. Surprisingly, Jack Adams the Detroit general manager agreed to the deal - a deal that would go down as one of the most one-sided in NHL History.

Toronto fans were asking why another defenceman was acquired when it was clear that they were set there for years. But Imlach had a plan all along and when Kelly first appeared on the ice wearing his familiar No. 4, he went to centre ice to face-off against a surprised Montreal Canadien also wearing No. 4. Imlach finally had his centre to check and neutralize the great Jean Beliveau.

The switch paid off. Already a great playmaker, Kelly turned Frank Mahovlich into one of the most lethal goal scorers in NHL history. He won his fourth Lady Byng Award in 1961. In his eight seasons with the Leafs, they won the Stanley Cup four times with Red Kelly transformed from an All-Star defenseman to Leafs playmaking center overnight upon his arrival in Toronto.

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